RE: Ford Focus RS at the 'ring: Time For Coffee
Discussion
In your opinion, not in mine or of the vids posted. Lets leave it at that as we could obviously keep going round in circles with me proving you wrong 
Oh here is me at SS at Santa Pod beating a 420bhp Lexus ISF:
https://youtu.be/4PZYn3jjfZ8
Yes he did beat me on another run but for an 8speed auto with a 420bhp 5.0 V8 and a good (false) start certainly didn't trounce me even though I had an 80kg passenger on board over him.
Oh here is me at SS at Santa Pod beating a 420bhp Lexus ISF:
https://youtu.be/4PZYn3jjfZ8
Yes he did beat me on another run but for an 8speed auto with a 420bhp 5.0 V8 and a good (false) start certainly didn't trounce me even though I had an 80kg passenger on board over him.
Edited by Ahbefive on Wednesday 26th July 22:37
M-SportMatt said:
Driver101 said:
I wrongly assumed that you would have read the thread. You're just picking out one post and missing out the rest.
Nope I quoted your first post to mention terminals, no mention of 1/4 times there or 60ft times.As said I'm not arguing for or against the FRS although I will say standing 1/4 performance is not a great assessment of a fast road car unless in a dick swinging contest. It has little or no bearing on point to point speed on a B road or enjoyment
If you don't really have an interest in drag racing and times, Why bother coming on to pick a fight over it?
Compairing the terminal speeds of similarly weighted and powered hatchbacks is a fair comparison. People compare drag times, 0-60mph, 'Ring times.......... everyone waves their dick when it's their strong suit. It only becomes irrelevant when they don't do so well.
Edited by Driver101 on Wednesday 26th July 22:55
Ahbefive said:
In your opinion, not in mine or of the vids posted. Lets leave it at that as we could obviously keep going round in circles with me proving you wrong
Oh here is me at SS at Santa Pod beating a 420bhp Lexus ISF:
https://youtu.be/4PZYn3jjfZ8
Yes he did beat me on another run but for an 8speed auto with a 420bhp 5.0 V8 and a good (false) start certainly didn't trounce me.
He made a complete and utter balls of the start. They aren't that fast and they are also 10 years old. Things have moved on a lot. Oh here is me at SS at Santa Pod beating a 420bhp Lexus ISF:
https://youtu.be/4PZYn3jjfZ8
Yes he did beat me on another run but for an 8speed auto with a 420bhp 5.0 V8 and a good (false) start certainly didn't trounce me.
Edited by Ahbefive on Wednesday 26th July 22:34
I notice the video cuts out before the times appear.
I don't think you've once proven me wrong. Boasting about 104mph terminals, losing to a M135i by a full second and a Golf being faster on the move all back up what I've said.
Edited by Driver101 on Wednesday 26th July 22:48
Edited by Driver101 on Wednesday 26th July 23:37
Driver101 said:
I've have already clarified that for you.
If you don't really have an interest in drag racing and times, Why bother coming on to pick a fight over it?
Compairing the terminal speeds of similarly weighted and powered hatchbacks is a fair comparison. .
Not remotely unless the transmission is similarIf you don't really have an interest in drag racing and times, Why bother coming on to pick a fight over it?
Compairing the terminal speeds of similarly weighted and powered hatchbacks is a fair comparison. .
Fwd vs rwd vs 4wd vs awd will give varying terminals for the same overall time as the 0-60ft will vary with the levels of traction and then transmission losses will come into play
But then I don't understand 1/4 mile times like you i guess.
I'm not really picking a fight but in your post you were hanging your hat on the terminals with none of the other numbers needed to add the colour to the point being made. On their own terminals mean diddley
Driver101 said:
He made a complete and utter balls of the start. They aren't that fast and they are also 10 years old. Things have moved on a lot.
I notice the video cuts out before the times appear.
I don't think you've once proven me wrong. Boasting about 104mph terminals, losing to a M135i by a full second and a Golf being faster on the move all back up what I've said.
Have you ever considered it might be down to a manual gearbox and high gear ratios?I notice the video cuts out before the times appear.
I don't think you've once proven me wrong. Boasting about 104mph terminals, losing to a M135i by a full second and a Golf being faster on the move all back up what I've said.
Edited by Driver101 on Wednesday 26th July 22:48
Edited by Driver101 on Wednesday 26th July 23:37
StottyGTR said:
They're extraordinarily agile, you can transition from sliding under braking to changing direction and continuing the slide with throttle in the wet on a potholed road with ease. The traction means you can slow for corners/roundabouts in a safe manner and absolutely explode out of them, you can get on the throttle way way way earlier than in other cars. Evo's have many benefits that mean f
k all on track but are very useful on roads.
The drag coefficient is poor as is the drivetrain loss, this makes them pretty slow on the ring due to its high speed nature.
fk I really need to get another Evo.
Edit: With regards to the Focus a friend of mine traded his new Impreza STI in for one a couple months ago and completely regrets it. He says he feels like a fwd car without understeer, it feels fine from the passenger seat to be honest but he's adamant that it is pretty terrible!
I'm sure you'll tell me he's an ex racing driver or something but your friend needs to learn to drive.k all on track but are very useful on roads.The drag coefficient is poor as is the drivetrain loss, this makes them pretty slow on the ring due to its high speed nature.
f
k I really need to get another Evo.Edit: With regards to the Focus a friend of mine traded his new Impreza STI in for one a couple months ago and completely regrets it. He says he feels like a fwd car without understeer, it feels fine from the passenger seat to be honest but he's adamant that it is pretty terrible!
Edited by StottyGTR on Wednesday 26th July 17:37
Can't remember a fwd hatch ever oversteering on power.
It can feel fwd, but def not 100% of the time. It shifts the power about constantly and changes its behaviour accordingly.
nickfrog said:
thedog13 said:
Everyone needs to get back to basics with cars too many these days are trying to hard either with fake exhaust notes or slow gearboxes, get into a Peugeot 205 gti any engine even better an mi16 one and you won't want another car to DRIVE!! All these unnecessary driver aids and systems take away the pure fun out of driving mainly to help the leaser blessed idiots from crashing ! Or to massage their egos due to them wasting £40k + on a hatchback !
That's right. You super hero!"Leaser blessed idiots" : brilliant.
I can't wait for your 3rd post !
Now go troll someone else's post while you sit at your desk !
thedog13 said:
nickfrog said:
thedog13 said:
Everyone needs to get back to basics with cars too many these days are trying to hard either with fake exhaust notes or slow gearboxes, get into a Peugeot 205 gti any engine even better an mi16 one and you won't want another car to DRIVE!! All these unnecessary driver aids and systems take away the pure fun out of driving mainly to help the leaser blessed idiots from crashing ! Or to massage their egos due to them wasting £40k + on a hatchback !
That's right. You super hero!"Leaser blessed idiots" : brilliant.
I can't wait for your 3rd post !
As for not "wanting another car", behave! You'd have to be one of the above "gang" to want to drive a 205GTI as a daily driver. If you prefer an old Peugeot, buy an old Peugeot, just don't come on a Modern Hot Hatch thread telling people what is fun, what is not and how some 1980's hot hatch is better. Take off the rose tinted glasses, it's 2017, the world keeps turning!
thedog13 said:
Well done you can troll ! I'm just stating a fact and if you feel it is necessary to add petty comments about spelling rather than add to the discussion then shame on you ?? Everyone knows cars from back then feel far more involved than any new car and my mate with his brand new A45 feels the same. All about tickle people's balls imho! Hence the 205 gets far more attention than the a45!
Now go troll someone else's post while you sit at your desk !
I knew I would love your 3rd post !Now go troll someone else's post while you sit at your desk !
I reckon you got "fact" confused with "opinion" but if your mate feels the same it must be true.
I have no issue with anyone preferring a 205 GTI. I drove a mi16 engined one at the time (circa 1992?) and I found it terrible, way too much power for the front axle. Even my current (modern) car is far more involving that that from a handling / traction point of view, but that's me.
As for them being quicker on track than most sport cars, that hasn't been my experience this year so far, nor last year for that matter.
Ahbefive said:
Tell your friend to try accelerating rapidly around a corner amd play with it a bit, it certainly feels very different to any fwd car. He needs to learn to drive it and give it some more timr. It's certainly more entertaining than my impreza and that was a great car.
I reckon the drift button would solve all his problems but he's reluctant It certainly feels well balanced from the passenger seat, both axles push wide simultaneously, nevertheless he is still adamant that it doesn't feel like much power is going to the rear!
Robert-lhcbq said:
StottyGTR said:
They're extraordinarily agile, you can transition from sliding under braking to changing direction and continuing the slide with throttle in the wet on a potholed road with ease. The traction means you can slow for corners/roundabouts in a safe manner and absolutely explode out of them, you can get on the throttle way way way earlier than in other cars. Evo's have many benefits that mean fk all on track but are very useful on roads.
The drag coefficient is poor as is the drivetrain loss, this makes them pretty slow on the ring due to its high speed nature.
fk I really need to get another Evo.
Edit: With regards to the Focus a friend of mine traded his new Impreza STI in for one a couple months ago and completely regrets it. He says he feels like a fwd car without understeer, it feels fine from the passenger seat to be honest but he's adamant that it is pretty terrible!
I'm sure you'll tell me he's an ex racing driver or something but your friend needs to learn to drive.k all on track but are very useful on roads.The drag coefficient is poor as is the drivetrain loss, this makes them pretty slow on the ring due to its high speed nature.
f
k I really need to get another Evo.Edit: With regards to the Focus a friend of mine traded his new Impreza STI in for one a couple months ago and completely regrets it. He says he feels like a fwd car without understeer, it feels fine from the passenger seat to be honest but he's adamant that it is pretty terrible!
Edited by StottyGTR on Wednesday 26th July 17:37
Can't remember a fwd hatch ever oversteering on power.
It can feel fwd, but def not 100% of the time. It shifts the power about constantly and changes its behaviour accordingly.
Odd driving style indeed.
Robert-lhcbq said:
Can't remember a fwd hatch ever oversteering on power.
Depends on the comparative front-to-rear suspension-stiffness, roll-stiffness, rear geometry set-up and tyre pressures - the BTCC boys have them set-up to do just that - depending on the driver's style, anywhere from pretty-neutral to moderate-oversteer under high cornering loads. If the driver can handle it, that is actually the quickest set-up for fwd.And to be fair, my Type-R's (2x DC2, 1x FD2) have been VERY neutral when cornering hard under power - their set-up is designed to get the back taking its fair share of the load to resist understeer. Combine that with quite aggressive LSDs (and variable road camber) and I've occasionally found, mostly in the dry, that I've had to wind lock off when really pushing.
havoc said:
Depends on the comparative front-to-rear suspension-stiffness, roll-stiffness, rear geometry set-up and tyre pressures - the BTCC boys have them set-up to do just that - depending on the driver's style, anywhere from pretty-neutral to moderate-oversteer under high cornering loads. If the driver can handle it, that is actually the quickest set-up for fwd.
And to be fair, my Type-R's (2x DC2, 1x FD2) have been VERY neutral when cornering hard under power - their set-up is designed to get the back taking its fair share of the load to resist understeer. Combine that with quite aggressive LSDs (and variable road camber) and I've occasionally found, mostly in the dry, that I've had to wind lock off when really pushing.
Good point. Interesting post. Would love to try one of them, not driven a fwd with those characteristics beforeAnd to be fair, my Type-R's (2x DC2, 1x FD2) have been VERY neutral when cornering hard under power - their set-up is designed to get the back taking its fair share of the load to resist understeer. Combine that with quite aggressive LSDs (and variable road camber) and I've occasionally found, mostly in the dry, that I've had to wind lock off when really pushing.
StottyGTR said:
I reckon the drift button would solve all his problems but he's reluctant
It certainly feels well balanced from the passenger seat, both axles push wide simultaneously, nevertheless he is still adamant that it doesn't feel like much power is going to the rear!
I haven't yet used the drift mode even though I have had the car 9 months. A quick stab of the throttle will easily bring the rear end into play especially with T/C turned off. Tell him to stop being a pussy and use the throttle fully.It certainly feels well balanced from the passenger seat, both axles push wide simultaneously, nevertheless he is still adamant that it doesn't feel like much power is going to the rear!
Edited by Ahbefive on Thursday 27th July 14:50
havoc said:
Robert-lhcbq said:
Can't remember a fwd hatch ever oversteering on power.
Depends on the comparative front-to-rear suspension-stiffness, roll-stiffness, rear geometry set-up and tyre pressures - the BTCC boys have them set-up to do just that - depending on the driver's style, anywhere from pretty-neutral to moderate-oversteer under high cornering loads. If the driver can handle it, that is actually the quickest set-up for fwd.And to be fair, my Type-R's (2x DC2, 1x FD2) have been VERY neutral when cornering hard under power - their set-up is designed to get the back taking its fair share of the load to resist understeer. Combine that with quite aggressive LSDs (and variable road camber) and I've occasionally found, mostly in the dry, that I've had to wind lock off when really pushing.
I'm not a racer, but from my knowledge of car dynamics you'd achieve it mainly through:-
- Differential roll stiffness - make the rear-end more resistent to roll and as you corner harder (so transfer more weight to the outside wheels), the front outside wheel will proportionately (i.e. adjusted for static weight distribution) receive more weight increase than the rear outside wheel...which will lead to a change in the grip proportion front/rear in favour of the front wheel.
- Geometry, in particular how rear toe changes under load.*
- Playing with tyre pressures.
Also bear in mind that, once you've commenced acceleration, the weight transfer f/r has already happened (weight transfer is affected by pitch of the car, which is affected by acceleration, so the second-order differential of speed).
* Hot-Hondas typically have dynamic rear toe - the more the suspension compresses, the more rear toe-in you get, increasing stability under cornering, which SHOULD contradict my comment above, and in 95% of road driving it does - it gives you lift off oversteer if you're rough with the car - more progressive than e.g. a 306GTi-6, but still fun.
But that dynamic toe must have a limiting point, and (my theory - poke holes in it if I'm wrong) at extreme loads it's already reached a peak toe-in, so what's previously been a gradual increase in the ability of the rear to support cornering reaches a limit. Conversely the front ATB-diff actually INCREASES the turning torque as rpm increases (revs seem to increase the locking effect). So if you find a long, accelerating corner, you've got an outside rear which reaches peak supportable load e.g. mid-corner, while the front-end may be cornering harder, leading to the rear feeling a little loose.
In reality I suspect the car in those dynamic conditions is actually set-up to be very neutral rather than genuinely oversteery, so any change in outside forces (e.g. tarmac grip levels or camber) could pitch that balance one way or another, and the times I've experienced it have been due to outside forces rather than innate dynamics. But it wouldn't take MUCH change in the ARB/geometry set-up to alter that towards power-oversteer, as the BTCC boys (really do) have it.
- Differential roll stiffness - make the rear-end more resistent to roll and as you corner harder (so transfer more weight to the outside wheels), the front outside wheel will proportionately (i.e. adjusted for static weight distribution) receive more weight increase than the rear outside wheel...which will lead to a change in the grip proportion front/rear in favour of the front wheel.
- Geometry, in particular how rear toe changes under load.*
- Playing with tyre pressures.
Also bear in mind that, once you've commenced acceleration, the weight transfer f/r has already happened (weight transfer is affected by pitch of the car, which is affected by acceleration, so the second-order differential of speed).
* Hot-Hondas typically have dynamic rear toe - the more the suspension compresses, the more rear toe-in you get, increasing stability under cornering, which SHOULD contradict my comment above, and in 95% of road driving it does - it gives you lift off oversteer if you're rough with the car - more progressive than e.g. a 306GTi-6, but still fun.
But that dynamic toe must have a limiting point, and (my theory - poke holes in it if I'm wrong) at extreme loads it's already reached a peak toe-in, so what's previously been a gradual increase in the ability of the rear to support cornering reaches a limit. Conversely the front ATB-diff actually INCREASES the turning torque as rpm increases (revs seem to increase the locking effect). So if you find a long, accelerating corner, you've got an outside rear which reaches peak supportable load e.g. mid-corner, while the front-end may be cornering harder, leading to the rear feeling a little loose.
In reality I suspect the car in those dynamic conditions is actually set-up to be very neutral rather than genuinely oversteery, so any change in outside forces (e.g. tarmac grip levels or camber) could pitch that balance one way or another, and the times I've experienced it have been due to outside forces rather than innate dynamics. But it wouldn't take MUCH change in the ARB/geometry set-up to alter that towards power-oversteer, as the BTCC boys (really do) have it.
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