STI TT lap vs Nürburgring...?

STI TT lap vs Nürburgring...?

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M030ef00

Original Poster:

158 posts

199 months

Thursday 20th July 2017
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Okay, I decided to do the maths. It would appear that the TT lap taking about 17 minutes (1055 seconds, 60 720m) represents an equivalent Nürburgring lap time of about about 6 minutes (362 seconds, 20 832m)
I know Higgins' latest car was 600bhp but the standard-ish car with roll cage in 2014 did it in just over 19mins, still equivalent to a 6min 40sec Nürburgring lap.
The Nürburgring is far wider and flatter than the roads the local Manx pootle about on, though I understand that the Nürburgring is a festival of adverse camber. Have I got my maths wildly wrong?
I know that different courses can be better for different cars, but this disparity seems bizarre.

DeolTheBeast

449 posts

145 months

Thursday 20th July 2017
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The TT car would probably need even more power and better trick aero (i.e. Huracan Performante) to get near a sub 7 min 'ring time

The latest Nismo GTR has done a 7.08 , I don't see the Higgins car being quicker than that if given a shot (also 4WD as a "comparable" vehicle)



Edited by DeolTheBeast on Thursday 20th July 13:42

anonymous-user

53 months

Thursday 20th July 2017
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P85D would smash the lot of 'em.

TheLuke

2,218 posts

140 months

Thursday 20th July 2017
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That TT STI is much faster than A GTR Nismo.

Also wasn't it on slicks?

DoubleD

22,154 posts

107 months

Thursday 20th July 2017
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janesmith1950 said:
P85D would smash the lot of 'em.
I thought they overheated after a few minutes of hard driving?

DoubleD

22,154 posts

107 months

Thursday 20th July 2017
quotequote all
janesmith1950 said:
P85D would smash the lot of 'em.
I thought they overheated after a few minutes of hard driving?

ZX10R NIN

27,490 posts

124 months

Thursday 20th July 2017
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I think you're maths are slightly off (the 19 minute cars had around 400bhp) my guess would be 7.20 or less the trick aero being a factor to help with this also they had another 50bhp that they didn't get to (due to the weather) use so maybe a take another 10 seconds off.

RB Will

9,662 posts

239 months

Thursday 20th July 2017
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The mistake you are making is assuming that the cars travel at the same average speed at both tracks.

The Ring is going to be significantly slower as corners are tighter and a lot more frequent where the TT course is mostly flat out. If the Ring Impreza makes it through 7 mins I will be impressed.

As you said according to your maths the old TT Impreza should be clocking about 6.40 at the ring but the fastest standard road going Impreza does about a 7.55

Would love Olly Clark to send the Gobstopper round the Ring. That beat the TT/Nurb Impreza at goodwood and beat the McLaren P1 LM at goodwood so could be on for a time of about 6.40-50 at the Ring

M030ef00

Original Poster:

158 posts

199 months

Friday 21st July 2017
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There's over 200 bends in the TT course, and quite a few more than 90º

tektas

293 posts

98 months

Friday 21st July 2017
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The outright lap record for bikes is 16:53.929 on a BMW S 1000 RR. and that bike goes round the Nordschleife in something like 7'20.

just as a reference

PorkInsider

5,877 posts

140 months

Friday 21st July 2017
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janesmith1950 said:
P85D would smash the lot of 'em.
And a P51D would smash a P85D

SystemParanoia

14,343 posts

197 months

Friday 21st July 2017
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PorkInsider said:
janesmith1950 said:
P85D would smash the lot of 'em.
And a P51D would smash a P85D
The P50 is what will get you all the girlies though smile

J4CKO

41,275 posts

199 months

Friday 21st July 2017
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Wonder what time could be done if a car was 100 percent developed for the ring, just that one goal ?

Christmassss

650 posts

88 months

Friday 21st July 2017
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Apparently the NextEV Nio EP9 currently has the fastest time for a production car of 6.45.90.



Edited by Christmassss on Friday 21st July 09:57

RobM77

35,349 posts

233 months

Friday 21st July 2017
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As someone says above, the two tracks are very different and average speeds can't be compared. Whilst the ring has that hugenormous straight at the end, skewing results compared to a more modern circuit like Brands Hatch, it's mostly a very twisty circuit; whereas the TT course has some extremely fast sections that go on for quite some time. The reason for that is that the ring was purpose built as a race track for competition, whereas the TT course is simply closed roads, and roads are by nature the easiest and often straightest way to get between two places, bends being a necessary evil to get around things.

The better thing to do is to try and guess what time a TT bike would do around the ring and/or what time that Impreza would do. I'd expect both to be somewhere between 7 minutes and 7 minutes 30. I'm basing that on existing bike and car times respectively, although the bike times are harder to judge because most quick times are BtG, due to a lack of bike racing there (the bike lap record is up at 7:49).

Prof Prolapse

16,160 posts

189 months

Friday 21st July 2017
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RobM77 said:
The better thing to do is to try and guess what time a TT bike would do around the ring and/or what time that Impreza would do. I'd expect both to be somewhere between 7 minutes and 7 minutes 30. I'm basing that on existing bike and car times respectively, although the bike times are harder to judge because most quick times are BtG, due to a lack of bike racing there (the bike lap record is up at 7:49).
I would have thought a top spec TT bike would be significantly faster than that.

Bike record BTG is 7'10", it was done on what was basically a battered £4000 Yamaha R1. According to the below that equates to about 7'24"-7'28", but I wouldn't know. fk knows how much faster a proper TT bike, or even a modern litre sportsbike, would be.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=inc9cGasgsA
http://bridgetogantry.com/2/index.php/home/nurburg...

I met Andy a few years ago, cracking bloke, great car instructor as well.


Edited by Prof Prolapse on Friday 21st July 10:21

hondansx

4,562 posts

224 months

Friday 21st July 2017
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I reckon the STI would be in with a shout. I saw it up close testing at Silverstone a couple of months ago and it a serious piece of kit, it shares barely anything with the road car underneath.

RobM77

35,349 posts

233 months

Friday 21st July 2017
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J4CKO said:
Wonder what time could be done if a car was 100 percent developed for the ring, just that one goal ?
It's commonly acknowledged that a modern F1 car would be deep into the 5s, and this was also estimated by engineers who've seen data from F1 cars that have briefly run there. The sim I race on the PC usually gets pretty close to real life lap times (I've owned, tracked and timed a number of the cars on the sim in real life, and it compares very well), and that also confirms this. If you covered in the wheels, increased engine power and improved the aero without the very tight regulations, then high 4s would certainly be achievable.

RobM77

35,349 posts

233 months

Friday 21st July 2017
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Prof Prolapse said:
I would have thought a top spec TT bike would be significantly faster than that.
Hmm, possibly, yes. When I estimated the above I used cars as the reference point, because that's where most of our data is. I estimated a low 7min time for the Subaru around the ring. 7m11 is the time for an AMG GT-R with similar specs, but that was running on trackday tyres, not slicks, so yes, maybe the slicks would dip that time under 7min?

What I then did to come up with that figure, was look at the times on the TT course, where the Subaru is currently 27 seconds slower than the TT lap record for bikes. Bear in mind that's without time at the circuit to develop setup or circuit knowledge (I know he lives there, but everything's a bit different at 150mph and I'm sure Michael Dunlop knows the track better and I'm certain MD's setup has had more time spent on it). I reckon with similar exposure to the course as a TT bike (and other cars to slipstream, as the bikes do), Higgins and his race engineers could probably shave that gap down to 20-25s. The TT course is 2.4 times longer in time than the ring, so we'd be talking around an 8-10 second difference between car and bike at the ring. I therefore think a TT bike might be around the 7 minute mark at the ring, assuming the Subaru was in the low 7s. I'm by no means certain about that though, you may be right! 6m50 perhaps? I wouldn't expect a time anywhere near Group C, which were in the mid 6s, especially when you bear in mind that Moto GP bikes, which are quite a lot faster than TT bikes, are only similar to Formula Renault or GT3 around most circuits.


Edited by RobM77 on Friday 21st July 11:12

Prof Prolapse

16,160 posts

189 months

Friday 21st July 2017
quotequote all
RobM77 said:
Hmm, possibly, yes. When I estimated the above I used cars as the reference point, because that's where most of our data is. I estimated a low 7min time for the Subaru around the ring. 7m11 is the time for an AMG GT-R with similar specs, but that was running on trackday tyres, not slicks, so yes, maybe the slicks would dip that time under 7min?

What I then did to come up with that figure, was look at the times on the TT course, where the Subaru is currently 27 seconds slower than the TT lap record for bikes. Bear in mind that's without time at the circuit to develop setup or circuit knowledge (I know he lives there, but everything's a bit different at 150mph and I'm sure Michael Dunlop knows the track better and I'm certain MD's setup has had more time spent on it). I reckon with similar exposure to the course as a TT bike (and other cars to slipstream, as the bikes do), Higgins and his race engineers could probably shave that gap down to 20-25s. The TT course is 2.4 times longer in time than the ring, so we'd be talking around an 8-10 second difference between car and bike at the ring. I therefore think a TT bike might be around the 7 minute mark at the ring, assuming the Subaru was in the low 7s. I'm by no means certain about that though, you may be right! 6m50 perhaps? I wouldn't expect a time anywhere near Group C, which were in the mid 6s, especially when you bear in mind that Moto GP bikes, which are quite a lot faster than TT bikes, are only similar to Formula Renault or GT3 around most circuits.

Edited by RobM77 on Friday 21st July 11:12
I think there's a lot of fag packet maths involved, and I guess the reality is we won't know how fast someone can do it on a bike until someone dedicated actually tries.

I'm not an expert, but I also think comparing MotoGP bikes, TT bikes, and, in the case of the current bike record, antiquated Yamaha's is similarly limited as despite overt similarities it is still horses for courses, they're very different animals... But assuming the bike is still a limiting factor with the posted time, I think it's fair to say there's some serious time advances to be made on motorcycles as they have come a long way. But I just think it's amazing a sufficiently skilled otherwise normal bloke could achieve such a time.

I do still find it quite strange that there's been no real effort made by bike manufacturers to chase times as there has been with cars. It would be very interesting to see how the next generation sportsbikes would fair, in the hands of a very dedicated ring expert.

Comparing cars and bikes is always a bit apples and oranges though. I'm not going to go there.