STI TT lap vs Nürburgring...?

[RobM77]

[J4CKO]

RobM77 said:

J4CKO said:

Wonder what time could be done if a car was 100 percent developed for the ring, just that one goal ?

It's commonly acknowledged that a modern F1 car would be deep into the 5s, and this was also estimated by engineers who've seen data from F1 cars that have briefly run there. The sim I race on the PC usually gets pretty close to real life lap times (I've owned, tracked and timed a number of the cars on the sim in real life, and it compares very well), and that also confirms this. If you covered in the wheels, increased engine power and improved the aero without the very tight regulations, then high 4s would certainly be achievable.

That would be mind boggling.

I am sure engine power can be suitably huge and am guessing that the suspension and aero could be tuned specifically for the circuit, corner by corner, i.e. the car configures itself dependent on where it is on the circuit,adjust downforce vs aerodynamic efficiency, airbrakes and there is all the stuff that is banned in F1 to go at as well, not to mention electric assistance.

Then get a computer to drive it, and offer passenger rides

[RobM77]

J4CKO said:

RobM77 said:

J4CKO said:

Wonder what time could be done if a car was 100 percent developed for the ring, just that one goal ?

It's commonly acknowledged that a modern F1 car would be deep into the 5s, and this was also estimated by engineers who've seen data from F1 cars that have briefly run there. The sim I race on the PC usually gets pretty close to real life lap times (I've owned, tracked and timed a number of the cars on the sim in real life, and it compares very well), and that also confirms this. If you covered in the wheels, increased engine power and improved the aero without the very tight regulations, then high 4s would certainly be achievable.

That would be mind boggling.

I am sure engine power can be suitably huge and am guessing that the suspension and aero could be tuned specifically for the circuit, corner by corner, i.e. the car configures itself dependent on where it is on the circuit,adjust downforce vs aerodynamic efficiency, airbrakes and there is all the stuff that is banned in F1 to go at as well, not to mention electric assistance.

Then get a computer to drive it, and offer passenger rides

Yes, if you went to those lengths then 4mNNs would certainly be possible. Active aero would make an enormous difference because of the contrast between the fast sweepers and the three really fast straightish sections. I'm not sure with the ring's bumps and undulations you could run a car stiff enough to generate levels of downforce beyond a human's ability, given that F1 already run at 6g laterally.

[anonymous-user]

SystemParanoia said:

The P50 is what will get you all the girlies though

Get on board!

[RB Will]

M030ef00 said:

There's over 200 bends in the TT course, and quite a few more than 90º

Nurburg has about 155 corners spread over 13 miles. The TT course has about 200 corners spread over 38 miles.

if Nurburg was as long as the TT course it would have over 460 corners so more than twice as many as the TT course.

Just thinking through a lap in my head only about 20 of the corners at Nurburg can be taken at over 100mph (unless in something with downforce). Just watched the TT onboard and there are only about 30-35 points/ corners where he is below 100mph so you can see why the average speed for Nurburg is considerably lower than for the TT course.

[M030ef00]

Many thanks to everyone!

Edited by M030ef00 on Friday 21st July 15:56

[thegreenhell]

Subaru have been building a car for Ring attack. Here's the preview video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j4HmoOAqtm8


Then today this happened

[anonymous-user]

RobM77 said:

especially when you bear in mind that Moto GP bikes, which are quite a lot faster than TT bikes

Not really, Bruce Anstey didn't come anywhere near winning this year or last on the Honda RC213V-S. In fact, I think he was slower than the superstock bikes.

[RB Will]

Not far off with my 7 min estimate then

[anonymous-user]

I think Michael Dunlop on a superbike would get into the high sixes with practice.

[anonymous-user]

I'm sure if the ultimate bike and car were run at the 'Ring, there would be just enough seconds between the two for the bikers to find 1 million excuses why the bike was slower, other than that physics dictates it will always be that way, and that's that.

I'd just be grateful that, for the cost of a decent MacBook, you can get something fast enough in a straight line to beat just about any new car under £150k.

[anonymous-user]

janesmith1950 said:

I'm sure if the ultimate bike and car were run at the 'Ring, there would be just enough seconds between the two for the bikers to find 1 million excuses why the bike was slower, other than that physics dictates it will always be that way, and that's that.

I'd just be grateful that, for the cost of a decent MacBook, you can get something fast enough in a straight line to beat just about any new car under £150k.

I seem to remember the Subaru at the TT doing a 128mph (flying...with an extra run up) lap with everything they could throw at it which is about the same as CBR 600 bike. Not terribly impressive considering a superbike can do almost 134mph. That's almost 45 secs per lap difference. Fair play to Higgins who is a top driver but the car is just a bit gay and not terribly fast in that scenario.

[anonymous-user]

wormus said:

I seem to remember the Subaru at the TT doing a 128mph (flying...with an extra run up) lap with everything they could throw at it which is about the same as CBR 600 bike. Not terribly impressive considering a superbike can do almost 134mph. That's almost 45 secs per lap difference. Fair play to Higgins who is a top driver but the car is just a bit gay and not terribly fast in that scenario.

That's lovely darling, however that's not really responding to what was said, the unless you believe a modified Subaru saloon is the ultimate expression of a performance car?

Ignoring cost, as it's not relevant to performance capability, a car has advantages over a bike in every area other than (relatively speaking) low speed acceleration. Due to physics a car can have enough power to out accelerate a bike at high speed, enough mechanical grip to out-corner at low speed, enough downforce to out-corner at high speed and sufficient mechanical grip and brake-force to out-brake a bike.

In summary, the bike has too small an area of advantage and too many disadvantages to be able to out perform the ultimate capabilities f a car.

That takes nothing away from the relative bargain that are bikes, for the performance they have versus the cost, or the sheer bravery and skill shown by bikers at places like the TT.

[RB Will]

Just needs a car with power to get close to the bikes in a straight line. The car was topping out at 170 where the bikes are doing over 200mph

[anonymous-user]

RB Will said:

Just needs a car with power to get close to the bikes in a straight line. The car was topping out at 170 where the bikes are doing over 200mph

The car was making about 700hp I think. The problem was the tyres couldn't cope. I had a nose around and make no mistake, the car was a work of art and they tried their best.

Edited by anonymous-user on Friday 21st July 20:22

[anonymous-user]

janesmith1950 said:

That's lovely darling, however that's not really responding to what was said, the unless you believe a modified Subaru saloon is the ultimate expression of a performance car?

Ignoring cost, as it's not relevant to performance capability, a car has advantages over a bike in every area other than (relatively speaking) low speed acceleration. Due to physics a car can have enough power to out accelerate a bike at high speed, enough mechanical grip to out-corner at low speed, enough downforce to out-corner at high speed and sufficient mechanical grip and brake-force to out-brake a bike.

In summary, the bike has too small an area of advantage and too many disadvantages to be able to out perform the ultimate capabilities f a car.

That takes nothing away from the relative bargain that are bikes, for the performance they have versus the cost, or the sheer bravery and skill shown by bikers at places like the TT.

Well clearly that's not the case as in spite of others trying, the bike is still fastest around the TT circuit. I would also say the 4wd Subaru is a good choice.

Appreciate you maybe a car fan but you cannot argue with facts I'm afraid.

[RB Will]

wormus said:

The car was making about 700hp I think. The problem was the tyres couldn't cope. I had a nose around and make no mistake, the car was a work of art and they tried their best.

Edited by wormus on Friday 21st July 20:22

Quoted power is 600bhp / 590 torque.
Considering it's lack of straight line speed up to 30mph down on the bikes in places to only be 5 mph slower over a lap shows the tyres and handling are better than a bikes.

Could try throwing something like Roger Clark Motorsports Gobstopper 2 around there. That is 800+bhp and was about 3 secs quicker than the iom / nurb impreza at Goodwood. Times that by the TT course and it's another 95 secs off the cars time. Obviously wouldn't work out quite like that but still a possibly big step

[anonymous-user]

wormus said:

janesmith1950 said:

That's lovely darling, however that's not really responding to what was said, the unless you believe a modified Subaru saloon is the ultimate expression of a performance car?

Ignoring cost, as it's not relevant to performance capability, a car has advantages over a bike in every area other than (relatively speaking) low speed acceleration. Due to physics a car can have enough power to out accelerate a bike at high speed, enough mechanical grip to out-corner at low speed, enough downforce to out-corner at high speed and sufficient mechanical grip and brake-force to out-brake a bike.

In summary, the bike has too small an area of advantage and too many disadvantages to be able to out perform the ultimate capabilities f a car.

That takes nothing away from the relative bargain that are bikes, for the performance they have versus the cost, or the sheer bravery and skill shown by bikers at places like the TT.

Well clearly that's not the case as in spite of others trying, the bike is still fastest around the TT circuit. I would also say the 4wd Subaru is a good choice.

Appreciate you maybe a car fan but you cannot argue with facts I'm afraid.

Interesting use of the word "facts"


Answer this question: On a circuit were cars and bikes are both allowed to run (ie not the IOM TT course which is of course closed to cars except for a very few exceptions) is there ANY circuit on the planet where a bike holds the ultimate lap record?

[RobM77]

wormus said:

Well clearly that's not the case as in spite of others trying, the bike is still fastest around the TT circuit. I would also say the 4wd Subaru is a good choice.

Appreciate you maybe a car fan but you cannot argue with facts I'm afraid.

eh? I'm only aware of Tony Pond in the Rover 827 and the Subaru. Who else has had a go on the full course in a quick car?

I'm afraid the fact is that for every single circuit in the world where cars and bikes both run plentifully, the cars are hugely quicker. My local track for example, Silverstone, had a pole time in F1 the other week of 1min26.6, whereas Moto GP are yet to under 2 minutes as far as I know. The only reason a car doesn't hold the lap record on the TT course is that it's an event for bikes only, with just a few demonstration runs by the odd car over the years. They do run hillclimbs on closed sections, but I'm afraid the cars are always fastest there too.

Edited by RobM77 on Friday 21st July 22:09

[Olivera]

RB Will said:

... That is 800+bhp and was about 3 secs quicker than the iom / nurb impreza at Goodwood.

I've just done the maths, the gobstopper was 1.96 seconds faster than the IOM impreza at goodwood, not 3.

Anyways, given this IOM impreza was a trick bit of kit, with lots of WRC and further development thrown at it, it goes to show it takes a lot of effort to get any saloon car or even tin top under 7 minutes.