Primary secondary position -good or bad for cycling driving?
Discussion
WinstonWolf said:
saaby93 said:
WinstonWolf said:
Nope, it's safer to be seen in the first place.
There's loads of info out there if you're genuinely interested.
Where is itThere's loads of info out there if you're genuinely interested.
The three terms 'gutter' 'primary position' 'secondary position' seem to have come out of a book called Cyclecraft.
Every time you try to find the source of the terms you end up back there.
Have you found anything that tests those concepts to say they're any better than normal rules - keep over to the left, where how far to the left depends on the type of road and what else is about, and we've seen in another thread keeping to the right in an offside slip.
What have you found that shows the benefits rather than just asserting it's beneficial without any evidence?
saaby93 said:
WinstonWolf said:
saaby93 said:
WinstonWolf said:
Nope, it's safer to be seen in the first place.
There's loads of info out there if you're genuinely interested.
Where is itThere's loads of info out there if you're genuinely interested.
The three terms 'gutter' 'primary position' 'secondary position' seem to have come out of a book called Cyclecraft.
Every time you try to find the source of the terms you end up back there.
Have you found anything that tests those concepts to say they're any better than normal rules - keep over to the left, where how far to the left depends on the type of road and what else is about, and we've seen in another thread keeping to the right in an offside slip.
What have you found that shows the benefits rather than just asserting it's beneficial without any evidence?
I do find it amusing that the Government in various guises has made one set of road users take exhaustive training. Make sure they wear decent safety gear and spend a lot of time and effort in making them obey the law, (motorcyclists). While encouraging another set without any training and no safety gear and little accountability to take to the roads which are badly suited for them. They then spend Millions on adapting these same roads for this group who use them for about two hours a day and then disappear.
Mound Dawg said:
motco said:
It all seemed to deteriorate when 'people on bikes' metamorphosised into 'cyclists'.
A person on a bicycle:-
A cyclist :-
And there you have it.A person on a bicycle:-
A cyclist :-
I'm just back from a couple of weeks in Germany, where I cycled most days. There were no cyclists vs *anyone* issues there, because - whether on the road, in cycle lanes or on shared paths - cyclists are just people on bikes, not competitive road monsters.
Thing is its not just the primary position , sometimes I have to ride in the middle of the road as the road has deteriorated with pot holes and sinks into the verge
My commute is a great cycle 5 miles of back lanes where there are no cars, 2 miles of old railway. But there is 4 miles of B road, the B road is slowly getting worse and worse and its just not possible to ride on the left had side as it is in such a bad state. I even tried a full on mountain bike, but the tyres still got caught in the ruts !!
My commute is a great cycle 5 miles of back lanes where there are no cars, 2 miles of old railway. But there is 4 miles of B road, the B road is slowly getting worse and worse and its just not possible to ride on the left had side as it is in such a bad state. I even tried a full on mountain bike, but the tyres still got caught in the ruts !!
Also the OP seems to be on a one man crusade to ram his opinion down our throats that the safest place to ride is as far left as possible.
Clearly this is not the case as anyone who uses a bike on the roads will know as it encourages passing that is both dangerous to the bike rider AND the car AND other road users.
We can assume that his username equates to his age not his brain cell count so his opinion can generally be discounted as a hot headed young man with little road experience, or the even temperament and empathy with other people that comes with age compared to some of the more mature users.
Clearly he does NOT use a bike regularly on the road or he wouldn't continually post such drivel.
Clearly this is not the case as anyone who uses a bike on the roads will know as it encourages passing that is both dangerous to the bike rider AND the car AND other road users.
We can assume that his username equates to his age not his brain cell count so his opinion can generally be discounted as a hot headed young man with little road experience, or the even temperament and empathy with other people that comes with age compared to some of the more mature users.
Clearly he does NOT use a bike regularly on the road or he wouldn't continually post such drivel.
M-SportMatt said:
saaby93 said:
. It's not uncommon to see a bike in centre of lane ( primary position) keeping an HGV or car behind with a long queue behind,
Haven't read any further than this, it MAY happen in city centres or other roads preceeding a right turn, but in general this is NOT common.
M-SportMatt said:
Also the OP seems to be on a one man crusade to ram his opinion down our throats that the safest place to ride is as far left as possible.
You'll only think that if you havent read what Ive writtenThere's enough stuff to discuss without making up stuff as a distraction
TwistingMyMelon said:
Thing is its not just the primary position , sometimes I have to ride in the middle of the road as the road has deteriorated with pot holes and sinks into the verge
yep we all know that 
You get pot holes in the middle in places too
What would happen if we dropped the terms gutter, primary secondary and reverted to normal cycling, as per the lady on the bike above?
Edited by saaby93 on Thursday 27th July 10:20
I'm very much old school if there's a large cue behind me struggling to pass me on my bike I will pull over. I will also wave them past if I can see a clear road ahead before they can to give them a better chance of getting past safely. My thoughts behind this is they are bigger than me and I don't want to die.
saaby93 said:
Integroo said:
Saaby, is your only point in life to make never-ending posts raising arguments between those who cycle and those who do not,
Of course not - many people do bothAnd in a similar vein is your only point in life to fill up forum space with off topic stuff?
M-SportMatt said:
Also the OP seems to be on a one man crusade to ram his opinion down our throats that the safest place to ride is as far left as possible.
Clearly this is not the case as anyone who uses a bike on the roads will know as it encourages passing that is both dangerous to the bike rider AND the car AND other road users.
We can assume that his username equates to his age not his brain cell count so his opinion can generally be discounted as a hot headed young man with little road experience, or the even temperament and empathy with other people that comes with age compared to some of the more mature users.
Clearly he does NOT use a bike regularly on the road or he wouldn't continually post such drivel.
It's already been agreed that riding by the kerb is dangerous to two wheels because of the detrious flung there and the propensity of those that do to suddenly swerve outwards around potholes, drains etc often catching motorists unprepared.Clearly this is not the case as anyone who uses a bike on the roads will know as it encourages passing that is both dangerous to the bike rider AND the car AND other road users.
We can assume that his username equates to his age not his brain cell count so his opinion can generally be discounted as a hot headed young man with little road experience, or the even temperament and empathy with other people that comes with age compared to some of the more mature users.
Clearly he does NOT use a bike regularly on the road or he wouldn't continually post such drivel.
What's your suggestion as to correct positioning then. Riding around 1/3 over in the lane, the middle or almost riding along the center white line?
V8mate said:
I'm just back from a couple of weeks in Germany, where I cycled most days. There were no cyclists vs *anyone* issues there, because - whether on the road, in cycle lanes or on shared paths - cyclists are just people on bikes, not competitive road monsters.
Do you reckon Marcel Kittel never trains in Germany ?Byker28i said:
M-SportMatt said:
Also the OP seems to be on a one man crusade to ram his opinion down our throats that the safest place to ride is as far left as possible.
Clearly this is not the case as anyone who uses a bike on the roads will know as it encourages passing that is both dangerous to the bike rider AND the car AND other road users.
We can assume that his username equates to his age not his brain cell count so his opinion can generally be discounted as a hot headed young man with little road experience, or the even temperament and empathy with other people that comes with age compared to some of the more mature users.
Clearly he does NOT use a bike regularly on the road or he wouldn't continually post such drivel.
It's already been agreed that riding by the kerb is dangerous to two wheels because of the detrious flung there and the propensity of those that do to suddenly swerve outwards around potholes, drains etc often catching motorists unprepared.Clearly this is not the case as anyone who uses a bike on the roads will know as it encourages passing that is both dangerous to the bike rider AND the car AND other road users.
We can assume that his username equates to his age not his brain cell count so his opinion can generally be discounted as a hot headed young man with little road experience, or the even temperament and empathy with other people that comes with age compared to some of the more mature users.
Clearly he does NOT use a bike regularly on the road or he wouldn't continually post such drivel.
What's your suggestion as to correct positioning then. Riding around 1/3 over in the lane, the middle or almost riding along the center white line?
I wouldn't stay hard left on a narrow high hedged twisty country lane as it encourages a blind close pass which is a danger to me, them and whomever may be coming the other way, I would and do wave people past in these occasions as soon as I find a safe place to do so.
On a wide A-road with a right turn ( for me ) approaching, i'd get out to the middle/right of my lane fairly early to make sure i don't have to move suddenly/inconveniently/dangerously and to make sure i'm seen so I don't get swiped/catch someone unawares.
It's much like driving a car, you adapt to the conditions and stay safe and aware/empathetic to other road users.
If you're looking for a 1 rule fits all then its not ever as simple as that, and if our OP is hoping to find consensus on keeping left he's mistaken. He sure likes his cycling threads for a non cyclist
cb1965 said:
The trouble is that the pro cycling lobby are, these days, generally a militant lot who do not accept that anything a cyclist does is wrong and put forth the general opinion that all motorised vehicle drivers are incompetent.
Such bulls
t. I know and ride with 100s of cyclist. Not one is what I would class as militant, nor have a holier than though attitude, nor "put forth the general opinion that all motorised vehicle drivers are incompetent".Like it or not, there is many many times more aggression shown towards cyclist than from them. With people walking our plant having your above quoted opinion, there is little wonder.
saaby93 said:
M-SportMatt said:
saaby93 said:
. It's not uncommon to see a bike in centre of lane ( primary position) keeping an HGV or car behind with a long queue behind,
Haven't read any further than this, it MAY happen in city centres or other roads preceding a right turn, but in general this is NOT common.You did say it and it is not common
I have no idea how you can deny saying it, are you schizophrenic?
M-SportMatt said:
saaby93 said:
. It's not uncommon to see a bike in centre of lane ( primary position) keeping an HGV or car behind with a long queue behind,
Haven't read any further than this, it MAY happen in city centres or other roads preceeding a right turn, but in general this is NOT common.Cyclists, when they do, will usually wave following vehicles past, wave to show gratitude as they pass, and normally receive a wave of thanks from the driver, or a quick toot of the horn to say the same thing.
This notion of the evil cyclist holding traffic up for miles on end is largely fiction.
WinstonWolf said:
saaby93 said:
WinstonWolf said:
Nope, it's safer to be seen in the first place.
There's loads of info out there if you're genuinely interested.
Where is itThere's loads of info out there if you're genuinely interested.
The three terms 'gutter' 'primary position' 'secondary position' seem to have come out of a book called Cyclecraft.
Every time you try to find the source of the terms you end up back there.
Have you found anything that tests those concepts to say they're any better than normal rules - keep over to the left, where how far to the left depends on the type of road and what else is about, and we've seen in another thread keeping to the right in an offside slip.
I take it you don't have any advanced driving qualifications then?
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