Public Transport vs Driving. Are they mad?
Discussion
I catch the train daily from Wolverhampton to Coventry.
It's disgusting and foul. I miss driving terribly, but the traffic is s
t hence why I catch it.
On Fridays I'm particular it goes to st as the trains seem delayed all the time and there are a tonne of fat sweaty people in this weather.
Virgin also sometimes don't turn on the aircon. No point going first class as sometimes can't get to the flipping seats or I'm some cases the carriages ain't been added!
Then again sometimes there are like 2 people In first class but you can't take the seat and have to stand with the great unwashed.
It's getting worse every year. When this contract is over I will actively be looking for a contract where I can use my car.
In this weather I just can't get over the disgusting smell of st, sweat, burning sausage.
Don't even get me started on some of the weirdos who catch trains. And those tts who don't take their rucksacks off when boarding and the idiots who put their suitcase on the chair next to them and also the idiots who take up two seats cos they want to sleep.
I make it a mission to tell these people to move their st so I can sit down.
I paid to use the train like them.
It's disgusting and foul. I miss driving terribly, but the traffic is s
t hence why I catch it. On Fridays I'm particular it goes to s
t as the trains seem delayed all the time and there are a tonne of fat sweaty people in this weather. Virgin also sometimes don't turn on the aircon. No point going first class as sometimes can't get to the flipping seats or I'm some cases the carriages ain't been added!
Then again sometimes there are like 2 people In first class but you can't take the seat and have to stand with the great unwashed.
It's getting worse every year. When this contract is over I will actively be looking for a contract where I can use my car.
In this weather I just can't get over the disgusting smell of s
t, sweat, burning sausage. Don't even get me started on some of the weirdos who catch trains. And those t
ts who don't take their rucksacks off when boarding and the idiots who put their suitcase on the chair next to them and also the idiots who take up two seats cos they want to sleep. I make it a mission to tell these people to move their s
t so I can sit down. I paid to use the train like them.
Edited by HannsG on Sunday 23 July 22:59
skip_1 said:
Anyone who has worked maintenance on the railway can tell you why tickets are so expensive. The amount of people needed to do even very little work before you consider the short working windows and screw ups that mean abandoned shifts is crazy.
I was in charge of a gang installing a new footbridge at Staines station, we had a 500tonne crane, which travels with four low loaders carrying the ballast and jib stabiliser, an escorted extending low loader to carry the bridge section, the local council preceded the bridge section, taking down various bits of road furniture to allow it to pass, then reinstalling them after. The bridge section was parked on the road, with traffic marshals, and we rigged the crane ready for the rail line possession to start, then we waited...About one in the morning we got the call that someone else had a possession on the next section of track, and as you are not allowed to have two line possessions next to each other ours was cancelled, even though the line was not open the train traffic.
We had to get the police involved then, as we had blocked the road, and now we couldn't lift the bridge off the low loader, we couldn't reverse the loaded low loader out of the way, as all the road furniture had been reinstalled, so the road into Staines station was going to be blocked for another 24 hours. The crane was booked onto another job the day after, but they couldn't get out for the bridge, so another crane had to be found to replace that one, there were another two low loaders with the staircase sections that were delayed for another day as well, not to mention the extra wages and accommodation for all the people involved.
All caused by a small oversight by someone at Network Rail...
otolith said:
I just don't see that one can reasonably expect the cost of a journey on public transport to be less than the marginal cost of using a car you already own.
This should be the target though. Just as fuel isn't the entire cost of a car journey, a rail ticket isn't the entire cost of a train journey for most journeys either.I live near Winchester and work near Basingstoke. Fuel is about half my total car costs. The train ticket is about half the public transport cost if using the bus at either end. The train ticket is about one third the total cost if using taxis at either end.
Trains in England are super expensive! I used to use the train in NI from Coleraine to Belfast and it was very cost effective, more reliable time wise than battling the ever changing traffic situation and was great for relaxing but I wouldn't have used it had it cost me more money as it did make the commute longer. Saved me around 20 quid a week on file costs. I think they should look at bringing prices down and more people would use it.
alock said:
otolith said:
I just don't see that one can reasonably expect the cost of a journey on public transport to be less than the marginal cost of using a car you already own.
This should be the target though. Just as fuel isn't the entire cost of a car journey, a rail ticket isn't the entire cost of a train journey for most journeys either.veccy208 said:
Trains in England are super expensive! I used to use the train in NI from Coleraine to Belfast and it was very cost effective, more reliable time wise than battling the ever changing traffic situation and was great for relaxing but I wouldn't have used it had it cost me more money as it did make the commute longer. Saved me around 20 quid a week on file costs. I think they should look at bringing prices down and more people would use it.
Problem is that on the train that I'd use to commute (if I didn't already ride a motorbike in or cycle) they wouldn't want more people to use it becasue in the morning/evening rush hours the trians are already full to capacity (and beyond) - only option is additional trains but then there isn't the line or terminal capacity for that...MitchT said:
I feel your pain. I was thinking of an impromptu day trip to Scarborough a while back. Car: £25 petrol. Train: £136 return for two people.
It really is daft, isn't it?Public transport is fine in and often around large cities. London, Manchester etc.
But for your average person, being told you HAVE to catch the 07:42 and you HAVE to catch the 17:28 is not really practical.
Certainly when I can drive from Newbury to London, park in a shopping centre, and tube anywhere and be out for less than the £80 odd for a peak time train says it all!
Yes, with traffic it can take a bit longer but I'd rather be in my own space. As per the "annoying things people do on trains" thread.
In Central London with tubes so frequent and well spaced there is no need for a car. But for inter-city travel, I'd rather s
t out a pine cone. Been catching public transport to work for nearly 2 years now.
When I ran a car:
Monthly:
Fuel :£150
Insurance: £60
Tax: £15
Tunnel fee: £60
then other yearly fees, MOT, breakdowns etc (my final year in the car cost me an addition £500
Total cost £3920 for the final year, doesn't include any car purchase.
I now walk / cycle to the train station, currently merseyrail have strikes every other day, weather is crap, but I pay £1008 a year on a railpass.
Massive savings for me, amazon prime to download some tv and the 45 minute trip is bearable. I was only doing a month trail but wanted rid of my car so sold it within the first 2 weeks, don't get me wrong Ill buy another car when I want, but id rather have a snotter and something fun and keep using the train than something expensive to get stuck in traffic in
When I ran a car:
Monthly:
Fuel :£150
Insurance: £60
Tax: £15
Tunnel fee: £60
then other yearly fees, MOT, breakdowns etc (my final year in the car cost me an addition £500
Total cost £3920 for the final year, doesn't include any car purchase.
I now walk / cycle to the train station, currently merseyrail have strikes every other day, weather is crap, but I pay £1008 a year on a railpass.
Massive savings for me, amazon prime to download some tv and the 45 minute trip is bearable. I was only doing a month trail but wanted rid of my car so sold it within the first 2 weeks, don't get me wrong Ill buy another car when I want, but id rather have a snotter and something fun and keep using the train than something expensive to get stuck in traffic in
Rail transport in this country is a joke. It takes you from not where you live to not where you want to go, the trains are always late because the staff is on strike, the carriage condition is terrible, it's overcrowded, and on top of that it's so ridiculously expensive. On some long journeys (to Scotland for example) it often costs less to fly, and I'm sure the cost of running a plane is a lot higher than a train, so I'm not sure it's all down to subsidies.
Can't understand why anyone would live somewhere that forced them to take public transport. I wouldn't take a train if someone paid me. The thing is, strangers aren't allowed to get in my car and sit next to me eating smelly food, drinking and farting. They are on the bus/train though.
otolith said:
Rail travel is bloody expensive, yes, but you're considering part of the marginal cost of using a car against the total cost of using the railway.
Which costs has he missed? His 'overheads' would be paid for regardless of whether or not he drove the extra hour.The only variable cost he has missed out is the small wear and tear on the car.
Salamura said:
Rail transport in this country is a joke. It takes you from not where you live to not where you want to go, the trains are always late because the staff is on strike, the carriage condition is terrible, it's overcrowded, and on top of that it's so ridiculously expensive. On some long journeys (to Scotland for example) it often costs less to fly, and I'm sure the cost of running a plane is a lot higher than a train, so I'm not sure it's all down to subsidies.
Are you seriously saying there should put stations in the smallest of villages ?Where do you want to go that you can't get to by train ?
egor110 said:
Are you seriously saying there should put stations in the smallest of villages ?
Where do you want to go that you can't get to by train ?
Not having stations at every village is an inherent inconvenience of rail transport, and that would be fine if it didn't come with all the other issues I listed, but mainly the high price. Unless you live in London or in the centre of any other large city, the cost vs convenience just doesn't stack up in favour of trains. Where do you want to go that you can't get to by train ?
Willy Nilly said:
As a low mileage driver, my cost per mile for my little car is off the chart! So it does vary from car to car and person to person. I don't think most people have the foggiest how much their car actually costs to own.
The same people who slag off PCP deals no doubt lolz......chrisb92 said:
otolith said:
Rail travel is bloody expensive, yes, but you're considering part of the marginal cost of using a car against the total cost of using the railway.
Which costs has he missed? His 'overheads' would be paid for regardless of whether or not he drove the extra hour.The only variable cost he has missed out is the small wear and tear on the car.
That's the point - if it was someone with an expensive annual rail pass saying that people were mad to drive because train journeys are "free"? You can't reasonably expect the whole cost of a train journey to be less than the marginal cost of a car journey.
Have just booked tickets for the wife and both kids - Newark to Edinburgh return, Friday to Monday in August.
£130 all in.
Did it through Trainline, and breaking the costs down it seems very reasonable.
I had to go from Nottingham to Crewe to pick a car up, and that only cost £19.
stty, dirty carriages though.
£130 all in.
Did it through Trainline, and breaking the costs down it seems very reasonable.
I had to go from Nottingham to Crewe to pick a car up, and that only cost £19.
s
tty, dirty carriages though.otolith said:
chrisb92 said:
otolith said:
Rail travel is bloody expensive, yes, but you're considering part of the marginal cost of using a car against the total cost of using the railway.
Which costs has he missed? His 'overheads' would be paid for regardless of whether or not he drove the extra hour.The only variable cost he has missed out is the small wear and tear on the car.
That's the point - if it was someone with an expensive annual rail pass saying that people were mad to drive because train journeys are "free"? You can't reasonably expect the whole cost of a train journey to be less than the marginal cost of a car journey.
OP already owns his car and was looking at the cost of the single journey to York. If he didn't make that journey to York he'd still pay his road tax, ins etc so it makes perfect logical sense to only factor in the marginal cost of the journey.
Unfortunately OP doesn't own a train season ticket (or a train), so each time he buys a ticket he absorbs the full cost, making it bloody expensive for an isolated journey. I think this was the problem he was highlighting!
Those who travel by train infrequently will often find it cheaper to drive for the exact reasons you have mentioned. What can be done about that though?
Interesting subject.
I'll always use the car where possible as I assume it's going to be cheaper but I've never actually took the time to do the maths. So here goes....
Now while bearing in mind that the savings/losses will vary journey to journey, and obviously cheap tickets for some journeys are available, I did the sums for a train journey to Manchester, somewhere I go a few times a year and always drive.
Two standard adult returns next weekend is £131.20 via trainline, plus the cost of a taxi to and from the local station at £10. So £141.20 in total to get the train.
To drive then, I factored in the costs of fuel, tax, insurance, finance payments (and therefore depreciation), tyres and brakes. Apart from brakes and tyres, all costs are based on annual mileage e.g. if my tax is £100 per year, and I do 100 miles per year, that's £1 in tax for each mile I drive. Total cost came out at £137.97 for the journey or 49p per mile. Almost negligible difference. If you remove the cost for insurance and tax as I'd be paying that anyway, but keep finance costs in to cover age-related depreciation, that comes down to 40p per mile.
As an aside, I calculated the cost of depreciation (based on GFV, not current comparable used market prices which would be ~50% more favourable) in isolation and it worked out a couple of quid less than the finance payments, which of course makes sense. I was also quite pessimistic with consumables costs although obviously there are many others I haven't accounted for.
I also consider the non-monetary advantages of driving e.g. practicality, convenience, comfort, sometimes fun, not sitting next to someone eating 13 boiled eggs for their dinner; the list goes on. Added to the fact I'm paying tax, insurance and finance payments whether the car is being used or not AND the poor state of the British public transport system in general.
Oh yeah, ALSO considering to drive would take maximum 3 hours, whereas a train would take minimum 3.5 hours.
Yeah, I'd rather drive. Works for some people, not for others.
I'll always use the car where possible as I assume it's going to be cheaper but I've never actually took the time to do the maths. So here goes....
Now while bearing in mind that the savings/losses will vary journey to journey, and obviously cheap tickets for some journeys are available, I did the sums for a train journey to Manchester, somewhere I go a few times a year and always drive.
Two standard adult returns next weekend is £131.20 via trainline, plus the cost of a taxi to and from the local station at £10. So £141.20 in total to get the train.
To drive then, I factored in the costs of fuel, tax, insurance, finance payments (and therefore depreciation), tyres and brakes. Apart from brakes and tyres, all costs are based on annual mileage e.g. if my tax is £100 per year, and I do 100 miles per year, that's £1 in tax for each mile I drive. Total cost came out at £137.97 for the journey or 49p per mile. Almost negligible difference. If you remove the cost for insurance and tax as I'd be paying that anyway, but keep finance costs in to cover age-related depreciation, that comes down to 40p per mile.
As an aside, I calculated the cost of depreciation (based on GFV, not current comparable used market prices which would be ~50% more favourable) in isolation and it worked out a couple of quid less than the finance payments, which of course makes sense. I was also quite pessimistic with consumables costs although obviously there are many others I haven't accounted for.
I also consider the non-monetary advantages of driving e.g. practicality, convenience, comfort, sometimes fun, not sitting next to someone eating 13 boiled eggs for their dinner; the list goes on. Added to the fact I'm paying tax, insurance and finance payments whether the car is being used or not AND the poor state of the British public transport system in general.
Oh yeah, ALSO considering to drive would take maximum 3 hours, whereas a train would take minimum 3.5 hours.
Yeah, I'd rather drive. Works for some people, not for others.
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