Public Transport vs Driving. Are they mad?
Discussion
otolith said:
Rail travel is bloody expensive, yes, but you're considering part of the marginal cost of using a car against the total cost of using the railway.
Even adding hire cars it still significantly cheaper.There are airlines that will fly me hundreds of miles, for less money than the subsidised railways will charge me to get to the airport.
Sheepshanks said:
otolith said:
Rail travel is bloody expensive, yes, but you're considering part of the marginal cost of using a car against the total cost of using the railway.
That's the snag. Don't shout about though - it gives the road charging lobby ammunition.Public transport is nearly always going to look bonkers if multiple people are travelling though.
otolith said:
MitchT said:
otolith said:
Rail travel is bloody expensive, yes, but you're considering part of the marginal cost of using a car against the total cost of using the railway.
How come the Dutch, the Germans and the Austrians (in my experience) can provide trains which are capacious, clean and punctual at prices that don't make your wallet sting then?Dutch and Austrian trains have lower subsidies than ours do, but I'm sure we could provide much cheaper rail services if taxpayers subsidised them as much as the Germans do.
If you have a car and already pay the costs for your daily commute (which is probably most of us) then rail travel often becomes too expensive for more than single occupancy trips.
We will go to London on a train as the costs and difficulty of parking means it's got the edge on driving, but that's not true for most other destinations.
Maybe when we all have electric low range cars..........
AyBee said:
Sheepshanks said:
otolith said:
Rail travel is bloody expensive, yes, but you're considering part of the marginal cost of using a car against the total cost of using the railway.
That's the snag. Don't shout about though - it gives the road charging lobby ammunition.Public transport is nearly always going to look bonkers if multiple people are travelling though.
Avoid rush hour and the fares are less , if you can book in advance there cheaper again.
Up here on the wilds of the Norfolk/Suffolk Borders I live a 40 minute drive from Norwich, 30 miles to commute. I mix both driving and PT. Driving costs are £6.00 a day in fuel, plus other expenses per mile. Weekly Bus ticket £20, but takes an hour and 10 minutes. Bus stop right outside my door, and drops me off a two minute walk to work. Train is £11.50 return, no weekly ticket possible, 15 minute walk to station, 20 minute walk t'other end. Buses run every 15 minutes at peak times and every 20 minutes other times. for a rural area It is not too bad.
otolith said:
Rail travel is bloody expensive, yes, but you're considering part of the marginal cost of using a car against the total cost of using the railway.
Point, but not uncommon for it to be cheaper to get a cab than a train, espeically the more that are travelling.Train can be a nice way to travel, espcially a short city break- see some country, no airport hassle or todays motorway drudgery, get some beers and snacks from m+s and sit back and chillax, if you happen to live in the right place and know someone familiar with the dark art of buying train tickets in the 21st centuary that wont cost you more than simply buying a fully optioned up brand new 750iL to do the trip in.
Public transport in the UK is actually very cheap -- if you shop around. Book early, use split-ticketing, get cashback, etc.
Recently traveled from Edinburgh to London (400-500 miles) and the *total* cost and time, after shopping around, were roughly:
Coach = £20 and 9-11hrs.
Train = £60 and 5-6hrs.
Small car = £80 and 7-10hrs.
Mid car = £120 and 7-9hrs.
Big car = £200 and 7-8hrs.
As many have said, people often forget the "hidden" costs of motoring, like depreciation, tax, etc. It's not just fuel and parking.
Conclusion -- coach is best if you are on a tight budget and typically less than 4 people.
Recently traveled from Edinburgh to London (400-500 miles) and the *total* cost and time, after shopping around, were roughly:
Coach = £20 and 9-11hrs.
Train = £60 and 5-6hrs.
Small car = £80 and 7-10hrs.
Mid car = £120 and 7-9hrs.
Big car = £200 and 7-8hrs.
As many have said, people often forget the "hidden" costs of motoring, like depreciation, tax, etc. It's not just fuel and parking.
Conclusion -- coach is best if you are on a tight budget and typically less than 4 people.
Yipper said:
As many have said, people often forget the "hidden" costs of motoring, like depreciation, tax, etc. It's not just fuel and parking.
Likewise many forget the hidden cost of public transport. For most of my journeys the connections at either end inflate the headline price considerably. Depends where you live and where you regularly travel to.Then of course there is travelling as a couple or as a family.
Don't forget rail fares don't cover the cost of the railways. For 2015-2016 total fare revenue was £9.3Bn. Rail subsidy for 2015-2016 was £4.8Bn. So roughly speaking the average fare only paid 2/3rds of the cost of the journey.
http://www.orr.gov.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0015/...
http://www.orr.gov.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0005/...
Rail is subsidised while road transport is a massive source of income for the govt. Remove the tax burden and the car would be far cheaper than rail while still being faster and most convenient for many journeys. Rail is great for city centre to city centre journeys. They are a small subset of all journeys though.
http://www.orr.gov.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0015/...
http://www.orr.gov.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0005/...
Rail is subsidised while road transport is a massive source of income for the govt. Remove the tax burden and the car would be far cheaper than rail while still being faster and most convenient for many journeys. Rail is great for city centre to city centre journeys. They are a small subset of all journeys though.
Stick Legs said:
During the Icelandic ash cloud saga I had to get home from Denmark on the day that the Esjberg to Harwich ferry wasn't running.
€77 from Ejsberg to Amsterdam by train.
€109 for the ferry from Hoek van Holland to Harwich.
£122 for the train from Harwich to Taunton!
Nuts.
Had similar, but coming from Dortmund. The train from Dortmund, plus a B'n'B in Den Haag, plus the ferry back to Harwich was cheaper than the train from Harwich to Huddersfield. I bunged my mate £50 plus fuel to pick me up.€77 from Ejsberg to Amsterdam by train.
€109 for the ferry from Hoek van Holland to Harwich.
£122 for the train from Harwich to Taunton!
Nuts.
My grandparents are heading down to Cheltenham from Northumberland for my bro's wedding in Sept. Ticket was booked last month, well ahead of time. Initial price 850 return with OAP railcard. Yes, eight hundred and fifty pounds.
They managed to find something a bit cheaper eventually.
You can hire a Merc S Class one way from Newcastle Airport to Cheltenham for one day for about 200 quid!
I got a train from Coffs Harbour in Oz to Newcastle near Sydney. Was less than $100 on the same day with no discount. 8 hour journey. What is wrong with public transport in the UK?
They managed to find something a bit cheaper eventually.
You can hire a Merc S Class one way from Newcastle Airport to Cheltenham for one day for about 200 quid!
I got a train from Coffs Harbour in Oz to Newcastle near Sydney. Was less than $100 on the same day with no discount. 8 hour journey. What is wrong with public transport in the UK?
Posted earlier - Just one of the many reasons.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gvagsSOlAy4
Of course they could be taken into Public ownership like East Coast was. Then they could have far higher customer satisfaction, of and actually return hundreds of millions to the treasury instead of taking it out.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/pass...
Anyway, we're both off work today, the Z4 is in for recall and I don't fancy leaving the 911 unattended in a city center. Why do't we go on the train?
Cycle 10 min to the local 'village' station, Poppleton. Buy out tickets on the train. Good day out in Harrogate, a few bars and some nice food and we'll head back at some point later, maybe stop for a curry in the village before heading home.
Of course it's silly money isn't it. Using Two together Railcard it's £9.80 return, for both of us.
Even without a Railcard it's only £14.
By the way, I'm Railway staff and do not get any discount whatsoever. None. Nada, Zero. Sweet FA.
Anybody can find a story of how their brothers mate went somewhere and it was cheaper to fly. In that case, please do and there will be more room for the rest of us on the train!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gvagsSOlAy4
Of course they could be taken into Public ownership like East Coast was. Then they could have far higher customer satisfaction, of and actually return hundreds of millions to the treasury instead of taking it out.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/pass...
Anyway, we're both off work today, the Z4 is in for recall and I don't fancy leaving the 911 unattended in a city center. Why do't we go on the train?
Cycle 10 min to the local 'village' station, Poppleton. Buy out tickets on the train. Good day out in Harrogate, a few bars and some nice food and we'll head back at some point later, maybe stop for a curry in the village before heading home.
Of course it's silly money isn't it. Using Two together Railcard it's £9.80 return, for both of us.
Even without a Railcard it's only £14.
By the way, I'm Railway staff and do not get any discount whatsoever. None. Nada, Zero. Sweet FA.
Anybody can find a story of how their brothers mate went somewhere and it was cheaper to fly. In that case, please do and there will be more room for the rest of us on the train!
Edited by Rick101 on Tuesday 25th July 09:10
I thought I'd look up my commute by train for a laugh 
06:30 leave home by bike (no buses where I live)
06:59 train departs my nearest train station
08:31 train arrives at station near work
08:45 arrive at work
Total time: 2hr15min
Total cost: £16.90
To drive it's 40-45 minutes and £2.81 in fuel. If I factor in depreciation of my car (£6k to £3k over 3 years - that's what my old one did), servicing (£150 a year) and tyres (two new every two years) it's £6.43.
so I can sit in comfort in my 3 series listening to music for 45 minutes each way, or cram onto a noisy train for over 2 hours...
ETA: Note that even if I lived next door to my local train station and worked next door to the nearest station to work, the train would still takes twice as long!
06:30 leave home by bike (no buses where I live)
06:59 train departs my nearest train station
08:31 train arrives at station near work
08:45 arrive at work
Total time: 2hr15min
Total cost: £16.90
To drive it's 40-45 minutes and £2.81 in fuel. If I factor in depreciation of my car (£6k to £3k over 3 years - that's what my old one did), servicing (£150 a year) and tyres (two new every two years) it's £6.43.
so I can sit in comfort in my 3 series listening to music for 45 minutes each way, or cram onto a noisy train for over 2 hours...ETA: Note that even if I lived next door to my local train station and worked next door to the nearest station to work, the train would still takes twice as long!
Edited by RobM77 on Tuesday 25th July 11:25
Atmospheric said:
City to City a train cannot be beaten
But it when you need to go round the doors that it adds up
I tend to find station to station on a direct line is comparable in time at least to a rail journey.But it when you need to go round the doors that it adds up
If you don't live at a station or your destination isn't a station I just haven't ever been able to make it work.
And having to swap your own space, own departure times, leather seats and music without headphones for feeling seasick, the smell of other people, standing up and paying for the privilege... it amazes me how poor an option trains are in this country. Some limited exceptions with the London underground and the Channel Tunnel.
Having tried using the wisdom of PH to improve an underground journey into London and finding I had to go to a different station to get a car parking space though, I'm somewhat sceptical that we'll ever sort public transport out in this country.
Most of the contributors here at least live reasonably close to a railway station and have, by the sound of it, a frequent bus service. Up in this corner, there haven't been trains since the mid 1960's so the nearest station is about an hour's drive. We still like the train, and both are now old enough to have railcards. My wife sadly had a stroke last year and doesn't feel able to drive any distance, but thankfully I still like driving. She has used the bus a few times but the buses here are unsuitable or at least inconvenient for old and infirm because the are part of a fleet designed for the Commonwealth games and accordingly have but two seats downstairs, plenty of space for sports equipment and awkward stairs to the top seats. There have been numerous complaints and the company say they will modify them...... By contrast, Edinburgh buses are convenient to use and obviously more frequent. In fact the system is a delight to use.
I've grumbled about rail privatisation quite a bit - bear in mind it's a franchise system. It's a bit late now, I know, but what benefit will HS2 bring? At enormous cost it will be possible to get to Birmingham 20 minutes sooner, but all that will really happen is that more and more people will want to go to London instead, with all the accompanying problems. It's a stupid politically driven vanity project and the investment could have been more fairly distributed around the entire country's infrastructure to either upgrade existing rail or reopen closed lines (or indeed better buses). The rail historian Christian Wolmar agrees with this direction of investment, and in Scotland the reopening of various lines has been a great success, most recently the line to Tweedbank in the Borders. Yes, some railways were ridiculous bits of Victorian speculation that duplicated services, but the whole Beeching business stank in my opinion. Marples (Transport Minister) owned a road building and construction firm! A clash of interests? Perish the thought, surely such things don't happen in British politics........
I strayed from the original subject, I know, but my basic point is that public transport is fine as long as it is fit for purpose. Yes, it costs public money, which is what happens in a complex modern society, but how that investment is directed is debatable.
I've grumbled about rail privatisation quite a bit - bear in mind it's a franchise system. It's a bit late now, I know, but what benefit will HS2 bring? At enormous cost it will be possible to get to Birmingham 20 minutes sooner, but all that will really happen is that more and more people will want to go to London instead, with all the accompanying problems. It's a stupid politically driven vanity project and the investment could have been more fairly distributed around the entire country's infrastructure to either upgrade existing rail or reopen closed lines (or indeed better buses). The rail historian Christian Wolmar agrees with this direction of investment, and in Scotland the reopening of various lines has been a great success, most recently the line to Tweedbank in the Borders. Yes, some railways were ridiculous bits of Victorian speculation that duplicated services, but the whole Beeching business stank in my opinion. Marples (Transport Minister) owned a road building and construction firm! A clash of interests? Perish the thought, surely such things don't happen in British politics........
I strayed from the original subject, I know, but my basic point is that public transport is fine as long as it is fit for purpose. Yes, it costs public money, which is what happens in a complex modern society, but how that investment is directed is debatable.
Public transport works brilliantly in two cases:
- Living in or near a city where the density of public transport is such that it genuinely becomes the easier option
- If someone else is paying.
I remember a few months ago I was working in central London, and was invited to a dinner out in Shepherd's Bush. What a bloody PITA I thought, that'll take forever. Actually, it took about 20 minutes each way. I remember stumbling out of the restrauant at about 11:30, into the tube, and being home (near Liverpool St) before midnight. Pretty impressive for about 4 quid.
For city to city it is also brilliant, but expensive. I was commuting a lot to Newcastle and Manchester last year from London. 1st class, 290 quid with a corporate discount, but I could pretty much do a day's work on the train - 3 hours each way, power for the laptop, decent seat and table.
All of the people writing policy about public transport need to remember that the rest of the country don't live in London.
- Living in or near a city where the density of public transport is such that it genuinely becomes the easier option
- If someone else is paying.
I remember a few months ago I was working in central London, and was invited to a dinner out in Shepherd's Bush. What a bloody PITA I thought, that'll take forever. Actually, it took about 20 minutes each way. I remember stumbling out of the restrauant at about 11:30, into the tube, and being home (near Liverpool St) before midnight. Pretty impressive for about 4 quid.
For city to city it is also brilliant, but expensive. I was commuting a lot to Newcastle and Manchester last year from London. 1st class, 290 quid with a corporate discount, but I could pretty much do a day's work on the train - 3 hours each way, power for the laptop, decent seat and table.
All of the people writing policy about public transport need to remember that the rest of the country don't live in London.
Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff