Driver Location Signs - Whats the point?
Discussion
ecsrobin said:
Police like to use eastings and northings
Ambulance like to use postcode
Fire unsure
Coastguard will accept anything
Amen to that, done some work with them in the past in the RNLI, "I'm somewhere between Glasgow and Belfast, I've just sent up my only flare" tends to be all they get to go on Ambulance like to use postcode
Fire unsure
Coastguard will accept anything
ecsrobin said:
Ares said:
I had a similar incident, I was right behind a bad smash on the M56. Hit the SOS button on my car which connects you to emergency services and beams your location (DMS co-ordinates).
The call was answered, the handler could see the co-ordinates but had no idea how to use them. All they can process is which junction it's between.
Police like to use eastings and northingsThe call was answered, the handler could see the co-ordinates but had no idea how to use them. All they can process is which junction it's between.
Ambulance like to use postcode
Fire unsure
Coastguard will accept anything
The problem with 999 call takers in any of the normal emergency control rooms is that most of them are not 'motorway savy' they want street or road names, that's what they work with all the time.
The very best way of reporting anything on the motorway or major trunk road is by using one of the SOS phones, it comes up on the system exactly where you're calling from (Although the operator will normally ask you to confirm the number on the phone,(in the picture is 6191A) This makes sure there's no crossed wires, it has been known!) this phone goes directly into one of Highways England control rooms, who can immediately set signs & signals EXACTLY where the incident is, and not for miles between junction x to junction y, they will also get whatever additional assistance is required as they have a direct line into all the various emergency control rooms.
When you open the door of an SOS phone, once it's been answered, if you're having difficulty hearing, press the button with the green ' tick' on it 3/4 times, that turns up the volume.
So note where the incident is, then stop at the first available SOS phone and say something like "It's a 2 vehicle RTC just before markerpost 261/5A Give as much info as you can,
.
The very best way of reporting anything on the motorway or major trunk road is by using one of the SOS phones, it comes up on the system exactly where you're calling from (Although the operator will normally ask you to confirm the number on the phone,(in the picture is 6191A) This makes sure there's no crossed wires, it has been known!) this phone goes directly into one of Highways England control rooms, who can immediately set signs & signals EXACTLY where the incident is, and not for miles between junction x to junction y, they will also get whatever additional assistance is required as they have a direct line into all the various emergency control rooms.
When you open the door of an SOS phone, once it's been answered, if you're having difficulty hearing, press the button with the green ' tick' on it 3/4 times, that turns up the volume.
So note where the incident is, then stop at the first available SOS phone and say something like "It's a 2 vehicle RTC just before markerpost 261/5A Give as much info as you can,
.
Edited by Gafferjim on Wednesday 26th July 21:26
The problem with 999 call takers in any of the normal emergency control rooms is that most of them are not 'motorway savy' they want street or road names, that's what they work with all the time.
The very best way of reporting anything on the motorway or major trunk road is by using one of the SOS phones, it comes up on the system exactly where you're calling from (Although the operator will normally ask you to confirm the number on the phone,(in the picture is 6191A) This makes sure there's no crossed wires, it has been known!) this phone goes directly into one of Highways England control rooms, who can immediately set signs & signals EXACTLY where the incident is, and not for miles between junction x to junction y, they will also get whatever additional assistance is required as they have a direct line into all the various emergency control rooms.
When you open the door of an SOS phone, once it's been answered, if you're having difficulty hearing, press the button with the green ' tick' on it 3/4 times, that turns up the volume.
So note where the incident is, then stop at the first available SOS phone and say something like "It's a 2 vehicle RTC just before markerpost 261/5A Give as much info as you can,
.
The very best way of reporting anything on the motorway or major trunk road is by using one of the SOS phones, it comes up on the system exactly where you're calling from (Although the operator will normally ask you to confirm the number on the phone,(in the picture is 6191A) This makes sure there's no crossed wires, it has been known!) this phone goes directly into one of Highways England control rooms, who can immediately set signs & signals EXACTLY where the incident is, and not for miles between junction x to junction y, they will also get whatever additional assistance is required as they have a direct line into all the various emergency control rooms.
When you open the door of an SOS phone, once it's been answered, if you're having difficulty hearing, press the button with the green ' tick' on it 3/4 times, that turns up the volume.
So note where the incident is, then stop at the first available SOS phone and say something like "It's a 2 vehicle RTC just before markerpost 261/5A Give as much info as you can,
.
Edited by Gafferjim on Wednesday 26th July 21:27
This is part of the network in the northwest (Actually where the M61 & M60 join) there are a number of things that you can see on it if you look, all the SOS phones as pictures of a telephone handset with their location number, so we know if it's before or after a sliproad join etc.
There are also little icons of where the CCTV cameras are, with their designated location numbers.
All the signs & signal gantries have location numbers, (these are marked on the signal uprights.
The bridges have a location number as well, (This is marked on a white pained patch on the bridge upright)
You can also see the signals, on the bottom c/way, you can see one in red, that means it faulty & not working. Look closely, there is also a message sign in red with ???? on it, this is also faulty. you can see some of the boxes denoting signals up towards he top left are in purple, this means that the HDS (Highest Displayable Speed) have been altered manually, normally it's 60, this has been changed to something else, probably 50 due to roadworks.
You can see plenty of little boxes with //// inside them and M on the c/way, these are the MIDAS pads, one / for each lane, these change to a Q if the traffic speed drops below 50 mph, and it will automatically set speeds and "QUEUE CAUTION" (or similar) There are a couple of boxes in purple near to the bottom right, this means that the midas has been disabled there, again probably for roadworks.
Where there are roadworks, the HDS is reduced to 50 max, and the MIDAS is disabled so works slow traffic & cones etc don't set off the signals.
Link to explain MIDAS = https://www.clearview-intelligence.com/solutions/m...
Edited by Gafferjim on Wednesday 26th July 22:06
Edited by Gafferjim on Wednesday 26th July 22:08
Cliftonite said:
ecsrobin said:
Ares said:
I had a similar incident, I was right behind a bad smash on the M56. Hit the SOS button on my car which connects you to emergency services and beams your location (DMS co-ordinates).
The call was answered, the handler could see the co-ordinates but had no idea how to use them. All they can process is which junction it's between.
Police like to use eastings and northingsThe call was answered, the handler could see the co-ordinates but had no idea how to use them. All they can process is which junction it's between.
Ambulance like to use postcode
Fire unsure
Coastguard will accept anything
They will also be using their incident creation software as this will then assign the most suitable asset which is not google maps.
Gafferjim said:
Lots of information about motorway management system
That's actually quite fascinating. I realised there were people sat in a control room somewhere but I never thought about just how much information there is to manage or how to make it clear enough for someone to use. Is there a policy against texting your loved ones to let them know which roads to take each morning/evening?
donkmeister said:
Is there a policy against texting your loved ones to let them know which roads to take each morning/evening?
Yes, mobile phones are not supposed to be used inside the control room.There is a good site that anyone can check on, and it does give a reasonable amount of information. http://www.trafficengland.com/ there's an app as well for your phone.
It first of all comes up with a map, you can see places where traffic is heavy, or where there are closures etc. If you click the "ALERTS" tab, it then will list anything that is making the journey over 15 mins longer than normal. It also shows you which lanes are closed.
Back to the map, Click on "MAP LAYERS" you can then bring up the CCTV cameras (obviously the link to some can be down, or they will be switch off to the public at a major incident)
You can even look at what message signs are set.
This is an old photo of the North West Regional control room, it's changed slightly since then, there's not as many desks now either.
Edited by Gafferjim on Wednesday 26th July 22:51
Gafferjim said:
The problem with 999 call takers in any of the normal emergency control rooms is that most of them are not 'motorway savy' they want street or road names, that's what they work with all the time.
The very best way of reporting anything on the motorway or major trunk road is by using one of the SOS phones, it comes up on the system exactly where you're calling from (Although the operator will normally ask you to confirm the number on the phone,(in the picture is 6191A) This makes sure there's no crossed wires, it has been known!) this phone goes directly into one of Highways England control rooms, who can immediately set signs & signals EXACTLY where the incident is, and not for miles between junction x to junction y, they will also get whatever additional assistance is required as they have a direct line into all the various emergency control rooms.
When you open the door of an SOS phone, once it's been answered, if you're having difficulty hearing, press the button with the green ' tick' on it 3/4 times, that turns up the volume.
So note where the incident is, then stop at the first available SOS phone and say something like "It's a 2 vehicle RTC just before markerpost 261/5A Give as much info as you can,
.
Right, sorry to bang on about this, and nothing personal GafferJim, we were both someone just trying to put a crust on the table despite Senior Management Team numpties, and clearly you're trying to help and explain but the thinking behind this really yanks my chain.The very best way of reporting anything on the motorway or major trunk road is by using one of the SOS phones, it comes up on the system exactly where you're calling from (Although the operator will normally ask you to confirm the number on the phone,(in the picture is 6191A) This makes sure there's no crossed wires, it has been known!) this phone goes directly into one of Highways England control rooms, who can immediately set signs & signals EXACTLY where the incident is, and not for miles between junction x to junction y, they will also get whatever additional assistance is required as they have a direct line into all the various emergency control rooms.
When you open the door of an SOS phone, once it's been answered, if you're having difficulty hearing, press the button with the green ' tick' on it 3/4 times, that turns up the volume.
So note where the incident is, then stop at the first available SOS phone and say something like "It's a 2 vehicle RTC just before markerpost 261/5A Give as much info as you can,
.
Edited by Gafferjim on Wednesday 26th July 21:27
I remember the first trials of these location signs, some were on the A38 Burton on Trent bypass. Must be at least twenty years ago. Wondered what they were for, investigated, found out and thought these were a good idea. Trunk road, few emergency phones, increasing use of mobile phones, good idea in principle.
Someone in what is Highways England, then Highways Agency, looked at this, like me thought it was a good plan and implemented nationwide roll out at how many thousands per sign. All well and good.
Yet we are being told that the best way is still to stop on the hard shoulder to use a telephone that is admitted in the post can be hard to use with the level of background noise. Furthermore to stop on the hard shoulder, a place that we are repeatedly told is so dangerous that you shouldn't stay there for any time and you really need a fending off Disco/Shogun in place all battenburged up and retina searing LEDs going. On top of that on some sections the hard shoulder is being made full time live lane running and the telephones reduced to a refuge every so often.
Yet all the effort on these location signs is being wasted because call centre handlers are not given a short training plus lookup sheets/screens to inform them about the system. It's no good asking someone on a journey from Cleckhuddersfax to Gosport a street name or bloody postcode or whether they're round the corner from Mr Patel's Shainsburys Local FFS. We don't even have the luxury of "we passed a Little Chef mile back" anymore. Talk about left hand not talking to right hand, joined up government, my arse. Twenty fricking years later and it's still not sorted.
Someone needs a b
king, no scratch that, sack some bds, that would make people sit up.I agree whole-hardheartedly with you FiF you are 100% correct in that the "standard" 999 call handler isn't trained in "Motorway procedure / speak / locations" what-ever.
If they were, then calling 999 from a mobile on the motorway would be fine using marker-post locations, but as they're not, then to be sure of getting it right, the SOS phone is still the most "Location correct" when it all goes tits-up.
To show how bad this is with 999 call takers, a few years ago there was an RTC on the A627M towards Rochdale, we needed an ambulance to attend, I called up for one, on getting through to the ambo service, This is something like how it went;.....................
Me; Hello, my name is Jim from the Highways Agency motorway control, our patrol is at an RTC on the northbound A627M between J3 & J4. and is asking for an ambulance to attend please. (description of injuries followed)
Ambo; What road name is that?
Me; It's the A627M, it's a motorway.
Ambo; No it's not, it's an A road so it has a name, I need that name.
Me; Sorry dear, it's a motorway it's name is the A627M, This is motorway control, we know what is and isn't a motorway!
Ambo; It can't be a motorway, it's an A road.
Me; Have you got your map up on the screen?
Ambo; No
Me; Well put it up!
(she puts it up on her screen)
Ambo; i have it now.
Me; Find Rochdale, now you'll see a blue road going south that both joins and crosses the M62 at Junction 20, do you see it?
Ambo; Yes
Me; That's the A627M, the RTC is on the northbound piece of that bit of motorway.
Ambo; well why is it called an A road if it's a motorway?
Me; It has an M suffix, that denotes it as a motorway, do you know where i'm talking about now?
Ambo; yes
Me; well send the ambulance, good-by!
This is the problem. The police motorway controllers have offered to go into the various police call centres and give them training, but i believe it's not really been taken up much. You've also got the high turn around of 999 call handlers.
I also believe ( & will stand corrected if wrong) that the larger marker-posts at each ½ k are so that any emergency patrol can determine their location at speed instead of trying to see the smaller ones.
A common one from one particular police call centre goes something like this; "HIGHWAY DISRUPTION. M6" If you're really lucky you might get a junction number, but no direction of travel, not between 2 junctions, and not even what the incident is.
(This call centre is often advertising for operators)
PLEASE NOTE, It's me that's saying if you want to be sure of getting the location correct, use the SOS phone, those in suites are very quiet on the subject.
If they were, then calling 999 from a mobile on the motorway would be fine using marker-post locations, but as they're not, then to be sure of getting it right, the SOS phone is still the most "Location correct" when it all goes tits-up.
To show how bad this is with 999 call takers, a few years ago there was an RTC on the A627M towards Rochdale, we needed an ambulance to attend, I called up for one, on getting through to the ambo service, This is something like how it went;.....................
Me; Hello, my name is Jim from the Highways Agency motorway control, our patrol is at an RTC on the northbound A627M between J3 & J4. and is asking for an ambulance to attend please. (description of injuries followed)
Ambo; What road name is that?
Me; It's the A627M, it's a motorway.
Ambo; No it's not, it's an A road so it has a name, I need that name.
Me; Sorry dear, it's a motorway it's name is the A627M, This is motorway control, we know what is and isn't a motorway!
Ambo; It can't be a motorway, it's an A road.
Me; Have you got your map up on the screen?
Ambo; No
Me; Well put it up!
(she puts it up on her screen)
Ambo; i have it now.
Me; Find Rochdale, now you'll see a blue road going south that both joins and crosses the M62 at Junction 20, do you see it?
Ambo; Yes
Me; That's the A627M, the RTC is on the northbound piece of that bit of motorway.
Ambo; well why is it called an A road if it's a motorway?
Me; It has an M suffix, that denotes it as a motorway, do you know where i'm talking about now?
Ambo; yes
Me; well send the ambulance, good-by!
This is the problem. The police motorway controllers have offered to go into the various police call centres and give them training, but i believe it's not really been taken up much. You've also got the high turn around of 999 call handlers.
I also believe ( & will stand corrected if wrong) that the larger marker-posts at each ½ k are so that any emergency patrol can determine their location at speed instead of trying to see the smaller ones.
A common one from one particular police call centre goes something like this; "HIGHWAY DISRUPTION. M6" If you're really lucky you might get a junction number, but no direction of travel, not between 2 junctions, and not even what the incident is.
(This call centre is often advertising for operators)
PLEASE NOTE, It's me that's saying if you want to be sure of getting the location correct, use the SOS phone, those in suites are very quiet on the subject.
Edited by Gafferjim on Thursday 27th July 16:47
Edited by Gafferjim on Thursday 27th July 16:50
Edited by Gafferjim on Thursday 27th July 17:27
Seeing these 2 men grappling at the side of the road with lorries and cars passing in L1 at speed looked dangerous. If one of them was to slip or fall or get pushed into oncoming traffic they'd be dead, severely injured and the occupants of any vehicle would also be injured. Regardless of who was at fault, the reason for the fight, it didn't matter. It shouldn't be happening at the side of a motorway, that's why I called up.
It's not up to me to know the individual telephone numbers of each different agency working on our roads. If we're always told from a young age, 999 is the emergency number, then who do 'they' think we will phone when there is an emergency?
As for the SOS phones... Why would I stop on what may or may not be the hard shoulder, depending on wether the hard shoulder is a live lane or not depending on which bit of which motorway you are on. I have a phone inside my car, which means I can avoid becoming a hazard by stopping on the shoulder. I can use what should be an emergency number to phone the emergency services who should be able to take basic information such as location information from a sign that is put there to determine position.
This is the whole point of the thread. If the SOS phones are that great then why do we have these Driver Location signs installed if nobody knows how to use them?
As I get older and experience more of this countries facilities and services, without even trying to pick flaws in the systems it does stand out how incompetent and over-complicated they all seem to be. Although that's probably another topic for another day.
It's not up to me to know the individual telephone numbers of each different agency working on our roads. If we're always told from a young age, 999 is the emergency number, then who do 'they' think we will phone when there is an emergency?
As for the SOS phones... Why would I stop on what may or may not be the hard shoulder, depending on wether the hard shoulder is a live lane or not depending on which bit of which motorway you are on. I have a phone inside my car, which means I can avoid becoming a hazard by stopping on the shoulder. I can use what should be an emergency number to phone the emergency services who should be able to take basic information such as location information from a sign that is put there to determine position.
This is the whole point of the thread. If the SOS phones are that great then why do we have these Driver Location signs installed if nobody knows how to use them?
As I get older and experience more of this countries facilities and services, without even trying to pick flaws in the systems it does stand out how incompetent and over-complicated they all seem to be. Although that's probably another topic for another day.
Edited by ashleyman on Thursday 27th July 17:37
You make a good point , All that i'm saying is that the SOS phones are a fixed definite location. you should be able to phone 999 and the operaotr at the other end SHOULD know how to find the location from a marker-post.
The number of times that urgent calls have come in with incorrect locations, wrong junction, wrong direction of travel, even wrong motorways! often because drivers don't have a clue where they are, especially if they're driving somewhere they're not used to. This is where marker-post come good, but you do need the operator to be motorway knowledgeable.
Maybe if when calling 999 and the operator hasn't got a clue, then later in the comfort of home you email the police force / ambulance region involved and point this out, maybe then they'll make it part of their training.
The number of times that urgent calls have come in with incorrect locations, wrong junction, wrong direction of travel, even wrong motorways! often because drivers don't have a clue where they are, especially if they're driving somewhere they're not used to. This is where marker-post come good, but you do need the operator to be motorway knowledgeable.
Maybe if when calling 999 and the operator hasn't got a clue, then later in the comfort of home you email the police force / ambulance region involved and point this out, maybe then they'll make it part of their training.
Edited by Gafferjim on Thursday 27th July 17:35
I've got to be fair with call handlers though, it's a bloody thankless job. It's stressful, crappy shift-work, kills you social life and the pay is crap for the responsibility they carry. They have to deal with all sorts of things that the general public have no conception about, not to mention members of the public from out of the shallow end of the gene pool.
(Just wish they'd learn about motorways................................)
(Just wish they'd learn about motorways................................)
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