Electric cars, does everyone really think they are amazing.
Discussion
JD said:
TooLateForAName said:
I really don't understand why the trolls have such hate for EVs. Those of us with an EV know that they work for us. They keep working for us every day. quoting made up stats isn't going to stop them working for us.
I think in the first, generally because they are thick, and second it is a certain human condition to be afraid of change to point of trying to resist it.You will find it actually doesn't matter what facts or figures are presented to people with this condition, because the objection is emotional and not based on rationality.
SimonYorkshire said:
JD said:
TooLateForAName said:
I really don't understand why the trolls have such hate for EVs. Those of us with an EV know that they work for us. They keep working for us every day. quoting made up stats isn't going to stop them working for us.
I think in the first, generally because they are thick, and second it is a certain human condition to be afraid of change to point of trying to resist it.You will find it actually doesn't matter what facts or figures are presented to people with this condition, because the objection is emotional and not based on rationality.
babatunde said:
Coolbanana said:
I haven't looked in here in a while but see Yorkshire's Finest Simon is still trying desperately to win a cause that was lost before this Thread even started! lol
Fact: The Powers-that-be in both Government and Manufacturing have long since decided that EV's are their propulsion method of choice and that they will phase these in with Hybrids so that the necessary infrastructure can be put into place.
It's all going to happen! There is a Bill in Parliament now to force Fuel Stations to all provide charging points. Just one step in many that is currently taking place.
No matter whether to you like it or not, whether you are a Genius who can prove another system is better or not, EV vehicles ARE happening and they ARE the Future! First Diesels and then Petrol-only engines will be phased out. Eventually, you will only be able to buy EV. There is no further debate. It happened and the outcome is currently being implemented. Get used to it!
The argument that is happening here re a minority fringe tech called LPG is utterly irrelevant and pointless; it is already consigned to the History Channel.
No one cares about EVs. The sales figures and depreciation stats tell their own story. Say what you like about LPG, it is still more popular than battery powered.
InitialDave said:
SimonYorkshire said:
I know what a heat pump is
Then why did you just post utter nonsense?SimonYorkshire said:
I know what a heat pump is and unless the low pressure rad is connected to a source of heat there's no point because if you're powering the pump via electricity you might just as well run a direct electrical resistance based heater because it will be just as efficient. There are no hot springs to tap into when you're driving down a road.
Now why don't you explain where the low pressure rad of the heat pump is in any warmer position than ambient air temperature? Without even checking I'll say it is far more likely that the EV heater actually does imply the aircon compressor running in reverse - No climate control for EVers, you can either have aircon or heat but you can't have both at the same time, no wonder you think pre-warming is such a benefit, you'll need to pre-warm to demist your windows if you had the aircon on last time you used the car pmsl. No chance of luke warm but dry air on an autumn evening,,, too bad, but of course this would involve sapping too much range from your already tiny range.
You clearly don't understand how a heat pump works...not even the basics!Now why don't you explain where the low pressure rad of the heat pump is in any warmer position than ambient air temperature? Without even checking I'll say it is far more likely that the EV heater actually does imply the aircon compressor running in reverse - No climate control for EVers, you can either have aircon or heat but you can't have both at the same time, no wonder you think pre-warming is such a benefit, you'll need to pre-warm to demist your windows if you had the aircon on last time you used the car pmsl. No chance of luke warm but dry air on an autumn evening,,, too bad, but of course this would involve sapping too much range from your already tiny range.
Edited by 98elise on Monday 23 October 19:22
Thread needs pictures to break up the walls of text.
Half term so stole the wife's Outlander PHEV to go to the office.
Pre-heated but with heating on at 23 degrees and heated seats on all the way.
Range said 27 at startup, obviously the motorway smashes that a bit.
Did my usual 24 mile mainly motorway commute around the 80 mark in line with traffic with a country lane either end providing a spot of regen ability.
It's true, the 12kwh battery is wiped out by the time I'm off the motorway but a hefty regen on the exit ramp and regen through the lanes topped me up a little.
Net result?
The electric in the battery was charged at £0.049 per kWh.
A bunch of other cars I've done it in
My 2004 Alfa 2.0 Twin Spark? 31mpg
My 2001 Saab 2.0 Aero? 30mpg
My 2013 Skoda Fabia 1.2tfsi? 46mpg
My old 2011 520d? 50mpg
Is it as much fun as any of them? No.
Does the normal car buying public give a s
t about fun? No
Also, whether you agree with gvt policy or not, it will drive adoption. I picked the Outlander because my BIK on the BMW was about £350 a month in its last year, the Outlander was £60.
With that kind of saving, I could afford to save up for an lpg conversion
Edited to add, client is an energy company so charging at work for the return trip is free
Half term so stole the wife's Outlander PHEV to go to the office.
Pre-heated but with heating on at 23 degrees and heated seats on all the way.
Range said 27 at startup, obviously the motorway smashes that a bit.
Did my usual 24 mile mainly motorway commute around the 80 mark in line with traffic with a country lane either end providing a spot of regen ability.
It's true, the 12kwh battery is wiped out by the time I'm off the motorway but a hefty regen on the exit ramp and regen through the lanes topped me up a little.
Net result?
The electric in the battery was charged at £0.049 per kWh.
A bunch of other cars I've done it in
My 2004 Alfa 2.0 Twin Spark? 31mpg
My 2001 Saab 2.0 Aero? 30mpg
My 2013 Skoda Fabia 1.2tfsi? 46mpg
My old 2011 520d? 50mpg
Is it as much fun as any of them? No.
Does the normal car buying public give a s
t about fun? NoAlso, whether you agree with gvt policy or not, it will drive adoption. I picked the Outlander because my BIK on the BMW was about £350 a month in its last year, the Outlander was £60.
With that kind of saving, I could afford to save up for an lpg conversion
Edited to add, client is an energy company so charging at work for the return trip is free
SimonYorkshire said:
I know what a heat pump is
And then immediately spouts a load of nonsense that quite clearly shows he hasn't actually got a clue!No Simon, you think you know what a heat pump is, and just like you think you know everything about about cars and EVs.
Despite myself (and others) posting many times that it's better to listen rather than talk, you continue to post total drivel, and therefore no one is surprised that 99% of the people contributing to this thread think you are an idiot...
In fact, i showed this thread to a few of the engineers i work with, and one came up with a new phrase we are now all using around the office when someone is spouting b
ks. We call it "Simon Says" ;-)Wuzzle said:
Not really thought this through have you. You guys are the only people in the entire world that believe any of this to be true.
No one cares about EVs. The sales figures and depreciation stats tell their own story. Say what you like about LPG, it is still more popular than battery powered.
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/feb/06/new-uk-car-sales-electric-vehicle-drives-12-year-sales-highNo one cares about EVs. The sales figures and depreciation stats tell their own story. Say what you like about LPG, it is still more popular than battery powered.
and quoting an earlier link
The last four years have seen a remarkable surge in demand for electric vehicles in the UK – new registrations of plug-in cars increased from 3,500 in 2013 to more than 126,000 by the end of September 2017. There has also been a huge increase in the number of pure-electric and plug-in hybrid models available in the UK with many of the top manufacturers in the UK now offering an EV as part of their model range.
fake news or you are just trolling?
Be realistic. If I had thought it worth a fraction of a percent of a point I might have Googled heat pump. I don't generally need to Google anything before replying to you guys. A heat pump is no more efficient than an electrical resistance heater if the pump is going to be powered by electricity and if you don't have an external heat source. Heat pumps do work in the same way as aircon, aircon lowers the temp at the evaporator to become X degC lower than the temp of the condenser. I still haven't needed to Google anything. Your EVs heating system is only a heat pump design because it is very simple to run a pump in reverse or switch effective constrictor nozzle location by means of a solenoid. The downside of such design for an ice would be that you lost any possibility of combining the dehumidifying effect of aricon with heat from the heater, the same disadvantage also applies to EVs - you don't have that capability, but the capability of running AC with heater on an EV would be more of a negative because it would flatten your battery even quicker.
ks on a regular basis. Do you often remind them that you used to work developing LPG systems for vehicles? Do you all pretend that if your boss said 'RIght lads we're moving into making H cars now' that none of you would defy the boss by telling him there was no way you were going to switch to a tech you didn't believe in? You be a good boy now and does as your boss says. Sarcastic comment - Of course it isn't just a coincidence you're currently plugging EVs and your boss tells you that's the way you've got to be eh. I have a new name for you - Fickle fella.
Why don't you and your work mates answer the points I made in my previous post I've quoted below? Because you and nobody else managed to, All we got for 2 pages after I posted this was padding. And now, in the light of new talk about heat pumps, I can say to readers that wherever I've quoted range figures etc with aircon on we can also assume range would be similarly effected with the heater on. Oh dear - there are going to be some EVers driving at 40mpg on the motorway AND either too hot or too cold because they're trying to increase their range eh pmsl.
Max_Torque said:
In fact, i showed this thread to a few of the engineers i work with, and one came up with a new phrase we are now all using around the office when someone is spouting bks. We call it "Simon Says" ;-)
I imagine 'Simon says' is said all the time then because I imagine a lot of your workmates, who are employed by an EV firm, spout bks. We call it "Simon Says" ;-)ks on a regular basis. Do you often remind them that you used to work developing LPG systems for vehicles? Do you all pretend that if your boss said 'RIght lads we're moving into making H cars now' that none of you would defy the boss by telling him there was no way you were going to switch to a tech you didn't believe in? You be a good boy now and does as your boss says. Sarcastic comment - Of course it isn't just a coincidence you're currently plugging EVs and your boss tells you that's the way you've got to be eh. I have a new name for you - Fickle fella. Why don't you and your work mates answer the points I made in my previous post I've quoted below? Because you and nobody else managed to, All we got for 2 pages after I posted this was padding. And now, in the light of new talk about heat pumps, I can say to readers that wherever I've quoted range figures etc with aircon on we can also assume range would be similarly effected with the heater on. Oh dear - there are going to be some EVers driving at 40mpg on the motorway AND either too hot or too cold because they're trying to increase their range eh pmsl.
SimonYorkshire said:
I don't claim to be an expert in speed versus drag Rscott but I did find this on the web where Leaf owners are talking range between themselves
https://speakev.com/threads/leaf-speed-vs-range-gr...
In this you'll see some claim range might be as much as 120 miles in ideal conditions which include ideal temperature and battery condition (condition meaning age / previous use in the lifetime of the car so far). Ideal conditions seems to be effected by heating / ventilation / radio use, and there's talk of parasitic losses such as CPUs running in the background, and motor efficiency (motor torque versus motor rpm) which seems most efficient within a narrow band.
I also found this, which is info from Tesla about how speed and use (or not) of air con effects range. See half way down the page for the speed versus range graph. http://www.solarjourneyusa.com/EVdistanceAnalysis5...
According to the graph the Tesla's range is effected like this:
speed (mph) / range (miles) aircon off / range (miles) aircon on
20 / 410 / 237
40 / 312 / 250
50 / 267 / 225
55 / 237 / 210
60 / 215 / 190
65 / 200 / 180
120 / 85 / 80
Are these the sort of figures you're looking for Rscott? Best not forget these figures are for a Tesla that will seemingly do 400 miles on a charge. A Leaf won't do 400 miles on a charge will it? pmsl.
Tell you what I'll do for you though, bit more maths... So, best case scenario then let's assume Tinrobots Leaf is capable of 120 miles at 55mph (still, this will be with aircon etc off eh). The Tesla can do 237 miles at 55mph so let's assume the Leaf has 120/237ths of the range of the Tesla at 55mph and 120/237rhs of the range of the Tesla at 65 mph. 120/237ths of 200 is 101.3 miles. Seems about right to me, what do you think?.
Given the above types of figures, no wonder people on this thread have seen EVs doing 40mph on the motorway eh. I mean, it seems the Tesla will have nearly 50% more range at 40mph than at 60mph. The concepts are exactly the same between the Tesla / Leaf / any EV, so there's no reason not to expect a Leaf to have 50% more range at 40mph than at 60mph.
If you were in this car and on a journey to a destination (that hopefully has a charging point) 300 miles away, it isn't entirely obvious if it would make more sense to drive the 300 miles at 40mph taking 7 and a half hours without a stop or drive at 60mph which would take 5 hours in an ice but takes 5 hours plus a long charge in the Tesla, is it? You can scale all of that down to Leaf figures, because you won't find it very handy to drive 300 miles in a Leaf anyway eh.
Meanwhile, every ice can go with traffic flow and their drivers know that they will arrive at the destination quicker the faster they drive because refuelling doesn't take longer than a couple of minutes and they won't have to divert through any cities to find a fast charger (or any charger at all). Even an old V8 Rangerover will do 20mpg at 60mph, so even running on petrol the 300 miles would cost £90 in fuel or on LPG would cost about £45. You say average mileage for the entire week is less than half of this journey so the Rangerover driver would only usually spend £45 / £23 respectively on fuel per week which is less than the cost of having the EV sitting on the drive doing nothing. You could work out for yourself how the sums compare for a 40mpg average car and ask yourself whether someone who runs an average age average car is going to think it a great idea to switch to go out and buy a new EV.
https://speakev.com/threads/leaf-speed-vs-range-gr...
In this you'll see some claim range might be as much as 120 miles in ideal conditions which include ideal temperature and battery condition (condition meaning age / previous use in the lifetime of the car so far). Ideal conditions seems to be effected by heating / ventilation / radio use, and there's talk of parasitic losses such as CPUs running in the background, and motor efficiency (motor torque versus motor rpm) which seems most efficient within a narrow band.
I also found this, which is info from Tesla about how speed and use (or not) of air con effects range. See half way down the page for the speed versus range graph. http://www.solarjourneyusa.com/EVdistanceAnalysis5...
According to the graph the Tesla's range is effected like this:
speed (mph) / range (miles) aircon off / range (miles) aircon on
20 / 410 / 237
40 / 312 / 250
50 / 267 / 225
55 / 237 / 210
60 / 215 / 190
65 / 200 / 180
120 / 85 / 80
Are these the sort of figures you're looking for Rscott? Best not forget these figures are for a Tesla that will seemingly do 400 miles on a charge. A Leaf won't do 400 miles on a charge will it? pmsl.
Tell you what I'll do for you though, bit more maths... So, best case scenario then let's assume Tinrobots Leaf is capable of 120 miles at 55mph (still, this will be with aircon etc off eh). The Tesla can do 237 miles at 55mph so let's assume the Leaf has 120/237ths of the range of the Tesla at 55mph and 120/237rhs of the range of the Tesla at 65 mph. 120/237ths of 200 is 101.3 miles. Seems about right to me, what do you think?.
Given the above types of figures, no wonder people on this thread have seen EVs doing 40mph on the motorway eh. I mean, it seems the Tesla will have nearly 50% more range at 40mph than at 60mph. The concepts are exactly the same between the Tesla / Leaf / any EV, so there's no reason not to expect a Leaf to have 50% more range at 40mph than at 60mph.
If you were in this car and on a journey to a destination (that hopefully has a charging point) 300 miles away, it isn't entirely obvious if it would make more sense to drive the 300 miles at 40mph taking 7 and a half hours without a stop or drive at 60mph which would take 5 hours in an ice but takes 5 hours plus a long charge in the Tesla, is it? You can scale all of that down to Leaf figures, because you won't find it very handy to drive 300 miles in a Leaf anyway eh.
Meanwhile, every ice can go with traffic flow and their drivers know that they will arrive at the destination quicker the faster they drive because refuelling doesn't take longer than a couple of minutes and they won't have to divert through any cities to find a fast charger (or any charger at all). Even an old V8 Rangerover will do 20mpg at 60mph, so even running on petrol the 300 miles would cost £90 in fuel or on LPG would cost about £45. You say average mileage for the entire week is less than half of this journey so the Rangerover driver would only usually spend £45 / £23 respectively on fuel per week which is less than the cost of having the EV sitting on the drive doing nothing. You could work out for yourself how the sums compare for a 40mpg average car and ask yourself whether someone who runs an average age average car is going to think it a great idea to switch to go out and buy a new EV.
Edited by SimonYorkshire on Monday 23 October 20:14
SimonYorkshire said:
Be realistic. If I had thought it worth a fraction of a percent of a point I might have Googled heat pump. I don't generally need to Google anything before replying to you guys. A heat pump is no more efficient than an electrical resistance heater if the pump is going to be powered by electricity and if you don't have an external heat source.
Yet again you spout nonsense. A heat pump is about 3x more efficient than a resistance heater.Just Google it....it's not hard.
Edited to add, the external heat source is thermal energy in the atmosphere. I don't think you understand heat (energy) vs something being hot/cold (a relative term)
Edited by 98elise on Monday 23 October 20:14
Even as a self confessed EV addict I have to say all this 'discussion' about efficiency at 60/70/80mph and what ever else rather boring.
I love my EV because it's fun to drive and puts a smile on my face, the fact it's a 2.5ton car that gets to 60mph in under 5 seconds is just nuts, add to that 200 miles of 'fuel' costs me around a fiver is just hilarious....Not sure how far a Range Rover would go on £5 worth of fuel
My biggest problem is I cannot stop driving the thing, I live only 5 miles away from work, but currently racking up nearly 1K a month...Strangely though our home electricity bill is on track to be half of the people that lived in the house before, and that's with me charging our EV 99% of the time at home. I honestly have no idea what the previous owners were doing using up so much electricity!!.
I love my EV because it's fun to drive and puts a smile on my face, the fact it's a 2.5ton car that gets to 60mph in under 5 seconds is just nuts, add to that 200 miles of 'fuel' costs me around a fiver is just hilarious....Not sure how far a Range Rover would go on £5 worth of fuel
My biggest problem is I cannot stop driving the thing, I live only 5 miles away from work, but currently racking up nearly 1K a month...Strangely though our home electricity bill is on track to be half of the people that lived in the house before, and that's with me charging our EV 99% of the time at home. I honestly have no idea what the previous owners were doing using up so much electricity!!.
98elise said:
SimonYorkshire said:
Be realistic. If I had thought it worth a fraction of a percent of a point I might have Googled heat pump. I don't generally need to Google anything before replying to you guys. A heat pump is no more efficient than an electrical resistance heater if the pump is going to be powered by electricity and if you don't have an external heat source.
Yet again you spout nonsense. A heat pump is about 3x more efficient than a resistance heater.Just Google it....it's not hard.
Edited to add, the external heat source is thermal energy in the atmosphere. I don't think you understand heat (energy) vs something being hot/cold (a relative term)
Edited by 98elise on Monday 23 October 20:14
Except the bad news is it isn't 3x more efficient and that's why very few heat their houses with a heat pump in the UK, and all those that do heat their houses with a heat pump in the UK have been duped. Wanna know how I know? I was once employed by a firm that plugged solar panels and heat pumps. I know all about them. I left the company because I didn't believe in their claims and I was correct not to believe them.There are 2 things that electricity do very well, one is transposing into heat, the other is transposing into a magnetic field. Again - There would be no point in a heat pump in the UK even for a static site because there are no underground heat sources to effectively 'pump' heat from. There is certainly no place on an EV car to pump heat from - not unless your motor or batteries inefficiently heat up, and you wouldn't want your batteries to heat up because that lowers their life expectancy and they're darned expensive. I understand heat pumps, you I'm not so sure. Heat pumps are fitted to EVs simply as an easy solution but they are no more efficient than a resistive heater on am EV. The only increase in efficiency on a car from having a heat pump rather than a resistive heater is that fewer parts will need to be fitted - If you're going to fit aircon, and perhaps if the aircon pump turning direction doesn't always have to be the same way (as it is on an ice) you might as well make use of the AC system to also function as a heating system. But now you can't have dehumidified warm air, not to worry because you wouldn't want to run both aircon and heating in a car with such a limited resource of power, your crap batteries. .
It is you that doesn't understand - the the thermal energy in the atmosphere is at exactly atmospheric temperature and the temp of a resistive heater starting point is this level of thermal energy. Heat pumps are suited to places where there are thermal springs, whose temp becomes the starting point before any extra energy is expended on heating.
Edited by SimonYorkshire on Monday 23 October 20:35
Donbot said:
You still don't understand how heat pumps work lol.
People don't tend to have them as the upfont cost is high and they need routing for the plumbing adding to cost.
You're wrong. I do understand, you don't. People don't tend to have them as the upfont cost is high and they need routing for the plumbing adding to cost.
I left a company that repeated 'efficiency claims' about heat pumps in the absence of hot springs etc, I doubt you did, I don't know if you would regardless of your beliefs.
Do you think it is possible to grab energy from the atmosphere? Lol. How about grabbing energy from 'the ether then even better eh?
Heat pumps work the same as aircon, exactly the same. If you have X deg C at some heat source the pump will add Y to that X deg C and deliver it to a remote point, which in the case of an EV would be the cabin. Where on an EV can you find an X that is higher than external temperature? The resistive coil in a conventional electric heater would start at X temperature anyway.
I was once asked to sell heat pumps to UK customers - I refused and left the firm because I knew their hype was full of it and I have more integrity than to even try to dupe people. I only sell what I believe in.
SimonYorkshire said:
Donbot said:
You still don't understand how heat pumps work lol.
People don't tend to have them as the upfont cost is high and they need routing for the plumbing adding to cost.
You're wrong. I do understand, you don't. People don't tend to have them as the upfont cost is high and they need routing for the plumbing adding to cost.
I left a company that repeated 'efficiency claims' about heat pumps in the absence of hot springs etc, I doubt you did, I don't know if you would regardless of your beliefs.
Do you think it is possible to grab energy from the atmosphere? Lol. How about grabbing energy from 'the ether then even better eh?
Heat pumps work the same as aircon, exactly the same. If you have X deg C at some heat source the pump will add Y to that X deg C and deliver it to a remote point, which in the case of an EV would be the cabin. Where on an EV can you find an X that is higher than external temperature? The resistive coil in a conventional electric heater would start at X temperature anyway.
I was once asked to sell heat pumps to UK customers - I refused and left the firm because I knew their hype was full of it and I have more integrity than to even try to dupe people. I only sell what I believe in.
Seriously, just Google heat pump efficiency, or coefficient of performance.
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