Electric cars, does everyone really think they are amazing.
Discussion
InitialDave said:
Lots of useful advice.
He does have a very good point. A refresh with a more flowing style and more use of images (for example) would make it far more appealing to someone browsing sites if considering a conversion. I'd think a large number now move on quickly to a rival site which is easier to digest.Given that you're keen to show off your work on that forum, adding a blog to your site to do so instead/as well would also make it more appealing and 'alive' to users.
To be honest, there might well be useful info on your site, but I gave up and looked elsewhere as I found it extremely unfriendly in comparison to others out there.
This is quite an interesting topic. The whole point of the EV as far as I can tell is for the cleaner emissions, but I for one am not entirely convinced that EV is the final answer. The restrictions of the vehicles range and the current lack of charging infrastructure, renders them an impractical option for the majority of households - but I'm actually doubtful of how clean they really are when you take into consideration the electricity supply in the UK is mainly supplied via fossil fuel burning power stations - that's assuming there's sufficient capacity in the infrastructure to cope with high volumes of vehicles being charged at prime times. However, my biggest concern is with the manufacture of the batteries, the pollution created by the mining of the precious metals is huge (not to mention the poor kids used to mine the stuff), and as far as I'm aware, Renault is the only manufacturer that has any kind of battery recycling program in place, so what will happen to the discarded hazardous materials from the old batteries?
https://www.worldvision.org/child-protection-news-...
https://www.worldvision.org/child-protection-news-...
UncleMick said:
This is quite an interesting topic. The whole point of the EV as far as I can tell is for the cleaner emissions, but I for one am not entirely convinced that EV is the final answer. The restrictions of the vehicles range and the current lack of charging infrastructure, renders them an impractical option for the majority of households - but I'm actually doubtful of how clean they really are when you take into consideration the electricity supply in the UK is mainly supplied via fossil fuel burning power stations - that's assuming there's sufficient capacity in the infrastructure to cope with high volumes of vehicles being charged at prime times. However, my biggest concern is with the manufacture of the batteries, the pollution created by the mining of the precious metals is huge (not to mention the poor kids used to mine the stuff), and as far as I'm aware, Renault is the only manufacturer that has any kind of battery recycling program in place, so what will happen to the discarded hazardous materials from the old batteries?
https://www.worldvision.org/child-protection-news-...
i think we need some sort of standardised scoring system for "i've heard EVs are actually the devil" type posts?https://www.worldvision.org/child-protection-news-...
How about:
The batteries are really polluting = 100 points
There's nowhere to charge them = 50 points
The National Grid can't cope = 300 points
They aren't any Greener because the grid only burns coal = 500 points
EVs are only built by children = 50 points
Pretty much the full 1000 pointer, so well done UncleMick (suspicious first post from a new acc. too...... ;-)
UncleMick said:
This is quite an interesting topic. The whole point of the EV as far as I can tell is for the cleaner emissions, but I for one am not entirely convinced that EV is the final answer. The restrictions of the vehicles range and the current lack of charging infrastructure, renders them an impractical option for the majority of households - but I'm actually doubtful of how clean they really are when you take into consideration the electricity supply in the UK is mainly supplied via fossil fuel burning power stations - that's assuming there's sufficient capacity in the infrastructure to cope with high volumes of vehicles being charged at prime times. However, my biggest concern is with the manufacture of the batteries, the pollution created by the mining of the precious metals is huge (not to mention the poor kids used to mine the stuff), and as far as I'm aware, Renault is the only manufacturer that has any kind of battery recycling program in place, so what will happen to the discarded hazardous materials from the old batteries?
https://www.worldvision.org/child-protection-news-...
Range has been discussed in great detail - they don't currently suit everyone, but the average car mileage per day in the UK is around 22 miles, well within the capacity of any EV. Over half of households have off street parking, so most of those could charge. Some councils are experimenting with lamppost chargers too.https://www.worldvision.org/child-protection-news-...
Cleanliness of supply was mentioned in another thread - mile for mile an EV is considerably cleaner as the losses in the supply chain are far lower (amongst other reasons). It also moves the harmful emissions away from most areas to a few smaller, more concentrated sites where it's more practical to manage and reduce them (at a cost).
National Grid have published their views on supply capacity - they don't see it as an insurmountable challenge but something which will require investment and planning
Tesla announced a battery reprocessing scheme 6 years ago - https://www.tesla.com/en_GB/blog/teslas-closed-loo... - that claims to be able to recycle around 70% of the battery.
UncleMick said:
This is quite an interesting topic. The whole point of the EV as far as I can tell is for the cleaner emissions, but I for one am not entirely convinced that EV is the final answer. The restrictions of the vehicles range and the current lack of charging infrastructure, renders them an impractical option for the majority of households - but I'm actually doubtful of how clean they really are when you take into consideration the electricity supply in the UK is mainly supplied via fossil fuel burning power stations - that's assuming there's sufficient capacity in the infrastructure to cope with high volumes of vehicles being charged at prime times. However, my biggest concern is with the manufacture of the batteries, the pollution created by the mining of the precious metals is huge (not to mention the poor kids used to mine the stuff), and as far as I'm aware, Renault is the only manufacturer that has any kind of battery recycling program in place, so what will happen to the discarded hazardous materials from the old batteries?
Let me guess, Hydrogen is the future?jjwilde said:
UncleMick said:
This is quite an interesting topic. The whole point of the EV as far as I can tell is for the cleaner emissions, but I for one am not entirely convinced that EV is the final answer. The restrictions of the vehicles range and the current lack of charging infrastructure, renders them an impractical option for the majority of households - but I'm actually doubtful of how clean they really are when you take into consideration the electricity supply in the UK is mainly supplied via fossil fuel burning power stations - that's assuming there's sufficient capacity in the infrastructure to cope with high volumes of vehicles being charged at prime times. However, my biggest concern is with the manufacture of the batteries, the pollution created by the mining of the precious metals is huge (not to mention the poor kids used to mine the stuff), and as far as I'm aware, Renault is the only manufacturer that has any kind of battery recycling program in place, so what will happen to the discarded hazardous materials from the old batteries?
Let me guess, Hydrogen is the future?Max_Torque said:
i think we need some sort of standardised scoring system for "i've heard EVs are actually the devil" type posts?
How about:
The batteries are really polluting = 100 points
There's nowhere to charge them = 50 points
The National Grid can't cope = 300 points
They aren't any Greener because the grid only burns coal = 500 points
EVs are only built by children = 50 points
Pretty much the full 1000 pointer, so well done UncleMick (suspicious first post from a new acc. too...... ;-)
Or alternatively - 'I'm going to talk down to condescendingly/insult anyone who doesn't share my view that EVs are the best thing since sliced bread.' How about:
The batteries are really polluting = 100 points
There's nowhere to charge them = 50 points
The National Grid can't cope = 300 points
They aren't any Greener because the grid only burns coal = 500 points
EVs are only built by children = 50 points
Pretty much the full 1000 pointer, so well done UncleMick (suspicious first post from a new acc. too...... ;-)
200 points?
All the while the ultra-pro nothing-but-BEV camp carry on like you - no wonder people can't stand the idea of them. The cars/technology is fine, it's some of the sanctimonious (insert expletives here) that drive them. Did you previously own a Prius by any chance?
=)
Edited by LandRoverManiac on Saturday 23 September 15:37
LandRoverManiac said:
Or alternatively - 'I'm going to talk down to condescendingly/insult anyone who doesn't share my view that EVs are the best thing since sliced bread.'
200 points?
Or people could use Google for 2 minutes before asking the most fundamental of questions that have been addressed a dozen times in this thread alone, let alone on the entire interweb...200 points?
Evanivitch said:
LandRoverManiac said:
Or alternatively - 'I'm going to talk down to condescendingly/insult anyone who doesn't share my view that EVs are the best thing since sliced bread.'
200 points?
Or people could use Google for 2 minutes before asking the most fundamental of questions that have been addressed a dozen times in this thread alone, let alone on the entire interweb...200 points?
It appears he created an account specifically because he found the thread interesting, raised a whole load of "issues"....but obviously doesn't find it interesting enough to read back a dozen pages where all of his 'queries' have been discussed multiple times.
Also, as far as I can tell, NO ONE on this thread have said they are the best thing since sliced bread. In fact, almost everyone that is positive about them will be the first to say that they do not suit everyone, however, they will suit a lot of people....probably the majority.
rscott said:
InitialDave said:
Lots of useful advice.
He does have a very good point. A refresh with a more flowing style and more use of images (for example) would make it far more appealing to someone browsing sites if considering a conversion. I'd think a large number now move on quickly to a rival site which is easier to digest.Given that you're keen to show off your work on that forum, adding a blog to your site to do so instead/as well would also make it more appealing and 'alive' to users.
To be honest, there might well be useful info on your site, but I gave up and looked elsewhere as I found it extremely unfriendly in comparison to others out there.
rscott said:
SimonYorkshire said:
I remember the time when EVs were a far more common site than they are today. Every morning walking to school I'd see several milk floats making their way slowly back to the depot where presumably they'd all be recharged again ready for the next day's rounds. If they'd had better batteries maybe they could have charged only once every couple of days, but then again I'm not sure if they all wanted to charge at double the normal charge rate if the depot's power supply could have handled it. Milk floats only had to drive a few miles per round, I wonder if a motorway services power supply could handle charging all those milk floats at the same time if milk floats were as fast as ice vans and had a range of 300 miles (so each individual milk float had many times the battery capacity).
I'll feed the troll. How well would a motorway service station cope with refuelling all the diesel milk float used now if they all needed filling stations at the same time?
Let's say 100 milk floats filling up with fuel on a motorway services that has 20 pumps.
It takes only 5 mins to fill each diesel / petrol / LPG milk float.
20 Can fill at the same time, all from the same tank (no strain on the tank's abilities to do this whatsoever).
So it takes 25 mins to fill all the floats.
If you're in a float at the front of the que you can be out of there in 5 mins.
If you're in a float at the back of the que you have to que for 20 mins before you get on a pump and then it only takes you to fill.
And this float/car might only have cost £500
100 EV's need to charge at 20 charging points.
Each EV takes 45 minutes to charge.
If each EV has a 100kwh battery and can charge in 45 minutes this means the charge rate to each EV is 133Kw (a normal house plug can supply 3kw, a normal house supply can allow a total of between 13.8kw and 23kw). If 20 EVs charge at this same rate the services needs an electrical supply of 2.66megawatts just for charging the EVs...
It takes 225 mins to charge the 100 EVs.
If you're at the front of the que you're out of there in 45 mins.
If you're among the 20 EVs at the back of the que you have to que for 3 hours just to get to a charger, then wait 45 mins for your own float/car to charge. Meanwhile, the driver of the petrol/diesel/LPG float/car has filled, been to the toilet, bought a coffee and might have driven another 200 miles down the road. And won't need to refuel again for well over 300 miles, not even if you put your foot down. .
But you could say what if the services has 100 EV parking bays. Now the services needs a 13.3megawatt connection to the grid just to cover the EV charging. Now you need to spend a lot of money on upgrading not only the services connection to local substations, but also local substations, substation connection to the grid, the grid itself and power station generating capacity at peak times. And it still takes 45 mins to charge.
But you could say what if the services has underground storage batteries to balance the load on the grid for such exceptional circumstances. Now you still need to do many of the upgrades I said above and also have to spend £many millions on batteries at the forecourt, and batteries wear out. Incidentally I just ordered a new battery for my laptop, as I have all my previous laptops, and I understand EV (and underground forecourt batteries) use the same technology batteries as laptop batteries. Maxtorque said EV batteries last longer than laptop batteries 'because they are managed differently' - I would suspect each type of management has it's own set of pros and cons so would ask what are the cons of EV battery type management (one for Maxtorque)? And it still takes 45 mins to charge. And you have to charge again before you've done another 300 miles. And 300 mile range is only possible if your electric float/car cost £100k and you drive it slowly, lesser EVs will still cost £thousands and have you charging as early as 50 miles on a motorway trip.
Edited by SimonYorkshire on Saturday 23 September 19:59
Enough with the charging time/capacity thing. The infrastructure will change to meet requirements, so it's pointless to discuss. There weren't enough petrol stations or petrol in 1900 to support the number of vehicles in 2017. same principle applies.
back to the EV engine then.
Every time I see people talking about range, they talk about the battery.
I don't really understand electric engines, but just as range in ICE cars increased not through how big the tank was, but the efficiency of the vehicles, can't the same happen with EV cars?
back to the EV engine then.
Every time I see people talking about range, they talk about the battery.
I don't really understand electric engines, but just as range in ICE cars increased not through how big the tank was, but the efficiency of the vehicles, can't the same happen with EV cars?
Efbe said:
Every time I see people talking about range, they talk about the battery.
I don't really understand electric engines, but just as range in ICE cars increased not through how big the tank was, but the efficiency of the vehicles, can't the same happen with EV cars?
http://pushevs.com/2016/11/23/electric-cars-range-...I don't really understand electric engines, but just as range in ICE cars increased not through how big the tank was, but the efficiency of the vehicles, can't the same happen with EV cars?
Hyundai IONIQ comes out on top with 15.40 kWh/100 km
Tesla Model S ranks bottom at 20.13 kWh/100 km
Efbe said:
Enough with the charging time/capacity thing. The infrastructure will change to meet requirements, so it's pointless to discuss. There weren't enough petrol stations or petrol in 1900 to support the number of vehicles in 2017. same principle applies.
back to the EV engine then.
Every time I see people talking about range, they talk about the battery.
I don't really understand electric engines, but just as range in ICE cars increased not through how big the tank was, but the efficiency of the vehicles, can't the same happen with EV cars?
We are very good at the Electric motor and already crazy efficient on those so nothing to gain with actual motor back to the EV engine then.
Every time I see people talking about range, they talk about the battery.
I don't really understand electric engines, but just as range in ICE cars increased not through how big the tank was, but the efficiency of the vehicles, can't the same happen with EV cars?
Efbe said:
I don't really understand electric engines, but just as range in ICE cars increased not through how big the tank was, but the efficiency of the vehicles, can't the same happen with EV cars?
Unlike Internal Combustion Engines (ICE), which burn a fuel, to make heat, to do some work, Electric motors simply convert electricity into magnetism to do useful work. For various complex reasons (too tedious to explain here) electricity and magnetism are very closely linked, so the conversion between them can be done very efficiently.A typical ICE can, at best convert around 25% of the energy in the fuel into useful work.
A typical, modern, Permanent Magnet (PM) eMachine can convert around 97 to 99% of the electricity it consumes into useful work.
Practically what that means is that for an EV, reducing consumption is not really about increasing efficiency, but more about minimising the power required, ie, reducing the roadload through optimising aero drag, rolling friction, and other parasitic losses.
On a typical EV, if we ignore Aero losses (which are the biggest drag component at most practical speeds ie above about 25mph) the next biggest loss is actually just the vehicles tyres themselves!
Efbe said:
Enough with the charging time/capacity thing. The infrastructure will change to meet requirements, so it's pointless to discuss. There weren't enough petrol stations or petrol in 1900 to support the number of vehicles in 2017. same principle applies.
back to the EV engine then.
Every time I see people talking about range, they talk about the battery.
I don't really understand electric engines, but just as range in ICE cars increased not through how big the tank was, but the efficiency of the vehicles, can't the same happen with EV cars?
How can you say enough about this?back to the EV engine then.
Every time I see people talking about range, they talk about the battery.
I don't really understand electric engines, but just as range in ICE cars increased not through how big the tank was, but the efficiency of the vehicles, can't the same happen with EV cars?
Current batteries are heavy and cannot be charged anywhere near as quickly as you could fill a petrol tank. There doesn't seem to be anything on the horizon that will address the weight and charge speed issues.
Even if there were, obviously every time you half the charge time it means you have to double the rate of charge, which puts more strain on the grid particularly at the more local levels, or at all levels if we're talking many people charging at once at perhaps peak times. If there comes a day when charging takes minutes rather than hours, people won't bother to set an alarm to go out and charge their car at 4am.
Electric motors are already near as dammit 100% efficient, unlike with ice vehicle evolution there are no gains to be made in efficiency of energy consumption, the problem with EV cars is inherent with the battery technology and strain on the grid to charge those batteries, especially if comes a day EV range is as good as ice range and ev charge times are as good as ice refuel times.
Most people are not long bearded tree huggers, an EV today might make sense to some people but those people are more likely to be thinking about cost per mile (very cheap currently) and that they never need to drive their car far (range doesn't bother them). If enough people think the same EVs could start to become more popular, in which case government start to lose a lot of money they would otherwise have received in ice fuel duty, so where does government get this money they depend on now? They could increase duty on ice fuel, start charging duty on electricity used to charge EVs, or increase other taxes. If they apply duty to EV electricity, bang goes the reason most people would consider buying an EV in the first place.
But your point was about infrastructure. Starting with the basics, how do you plug in your EV if you have to park on the road outside your house or block of flats, as is the case for about half of the population...
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