Electric cars, does everyone really think they are amazing.
Discussion
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The only downside with such charging points is that - presumably as a function of wiring them up more easily - they often get placed in "convenient" spots near the entrance to stores, and so you'll always have morons in non-EV cars parking in them.It'd be better with them way over the back of the car park. I'm one of those people who parks there anyway, to avoid having people open their doors into me.
InitialDave said:
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The only downside with such charging points is that - presumably as a function of wiring them up more easily - they often get placed in "convenient" spots near the entrance to stores, and so you'll always have morons in non-EV cars parking in them.It'd be better with them way over the back of the car park. I'm one of those people who parks there anyway, to avoid having people open their doors into me.
Max_Torque said:
Efbe said:
I don't really understand electric engines, but just as range in ICE cars increased not through how big the tank was, but the efficiency of the vehicles, can't the same happen with EV cars?
Unlike Internal Combustion Engines (ICE), which burn a fuel, to make heat, to do some work, Electric motors simply convert electricity into magnetism to do useful work. For various complex reasons (too tedious to explain here) electricity and magnetism are very closely linked, so the conversion between them can be done very efficiently.A typical ICE can, at best convert around 25% of the energy in the fuel into useful work.
A typical, modern, Permanent Magnet (PM) eMachine can convert around 97 to 99% of the electricity it consumes into useful work.
Practically what that means is that for an EV, reducing consumption is not really about increasing efficiency, but more about minimising the power required, ie, reducing the roadload through optimising aero drag, rolling friction, and other parasitic losses.
On a typical EV, if we ignore Aero losses (which are the biggest drag component at most practical speeds ie above about 25mph) the next biggest loss is actually just the vehicles tyres themselves!
The way I understand it is that he electricity powers the electromagnets to pull the motor around. (Better component names may be available!)
Couldn't improvements be made in this though, such as using less magnets when it gets going, less current etc, or is this already being done?
Efbe said:
Thanks for your and everyone elses reply on this.
The way I understand it is that he electricity powers the electromagnets to pull the motor around. (Better component names may be available!)
Couldn't improvements be made in this though, such as using less magnets when it gets going, less current etc, or is this already being done?
Probably, possibly. But it's a case of diminishing returns on investment. Money is better aimed at the rest of the vehicle, be it batteries or chassis materials.The way I understand it is that he electricity powers the electromagnets to pull the motor around. (Better component names may be available!)
Couldn't improvements be made in this though, such as using less magnets when it gets going, less current etc, or is this already being done?
Reducing the mass of the motors is about the only thing, but they're not particularly bulky.
Electric motors just aren't particularly new tech, and have seen heavy investment for decades.
Now we are seeing a standard to 200-300mile ranges on EVs from 2018 charging away from home will become much more rare. Only long motorway adventures will require maybe one stop to recharge in the UK.
Everyone else will just wake up every day to a full tank charged over night.
By the time EVs hit 50% of new sales I'd expect we will be seeing ranges 300-400miles as the standard, even less call for charging...
Everyone else will just wake up every day to a full tank charged over night.
By the time EVs hit 50% of new sales I'd expect we will be seeing ranges 300-400miles as the standard, even less call for charging...
Efbe said:
Max_Torque said:
Efbe said:
I don't really understand electric engines, but just as range in ICE cars increased not through how big the tank was, but the efficiency of the vehicles, can't the same happen with EV cars?
Unlike Internal Combustion Engines (ICE), which burn a fuel, to make heat, to do some work, Electric motors simply convert electricity into magnetism to do useful work. For various complex reasons (too tedious to explain here) electricity and magnetism are very closely linked, so the conversion between them can be done very efficiently.A typical ICE can, at best convert around 25% of the energy in the fuel into useful work.
A typical, modern, Permanent Magnet (PM) eMachine can convert around 97 to 99% of the electricity it consumes into useful work.
Practically what that means is that for an EV, reducing consumption is not really about increasing efficiency, but more about minimising the power required, ie, reducing the roadload through optimising aero drag, rolling friction, and other parasitic losses.
On a typical EV, if we ignore Aero losses (which are the biggest drag component at most practical speeds ie above about 25mph) the next biggest loss is actually just the vehicles tyres themselves!
The way I understand it is that he electricity powers the electromagnets to pull the motor around. (Better component names may be available!)
Couldn't improvements be made in this though, such as using less magnets when it gets going, less current etc, or is this already being done?
The first major changes that came along was to add a variable speed drive between the supply and the motor, to remove the direct link between supply frequency and motor speed. The ability to operate at variable speed allows for much more efficient duty cycles.
The process of converting a fixed supply frequency to a variable one through a 'drive' normally utilises an AC-DC-AC. So the basic traction motor/drive technology used in EVs is an adaption of this where the drive is reduced to a DC-AC converter and a motor, the DC supply coming from the battery.
Susequently, the development of new materials, design and manufacturing methods and cooling technologies have also pushed the motor technology forward.
Some motor modern motors use permanent magnets (PM) on the rotating shaft, others use electromagnets where current is passed through conductors embedded in silicon iron, either by induction or other means.
For the PM types, rare earth materials are used in the formulation of the magnet material, e.g. Samarium, Neodymium, Yisprosuin, Ytrium, etc. The PMs are used in an effort to increase torque density/spread and efficiency and maybe higher operating speeds. The cost is usually higher so an economic assessment is carried out to justify their use. In a typical EV traction motor of say 200 hp, the amount of these materisls used is actually quite small.
Some EV traction motors don't use any, e.g. Tesla and rely on the principal of induction.
In any case, the term 'rare earth' is misleading as it immediately makes the uninformed sceptics jump up and down about running out, which isn't going to happen.
The point being that major advances in the efficiency, power density and speed capability of both drives and motors have allowed EV developers to tap into this, and there is now little space left to improve efficiency much further, as these motors and drives are over 95% efficient and as high as 99% in some cases.
As an aside, EV motors and drives are designed to work in both directions ( at near identical power rating and efficiency in both directions) so regenerative braking can be used to recharge the battery. In that mode the motor becomes a generator and the drive feeds DC power back to the battery.
This is one of the inherent abilities of electric drive trains that makes them far superior to conventional drivetrains with respect to overall energy efficiency in vehicles.
Note that I'm not including the battery in this discussion because it is covered extensively elsewhere in the thread.
Evanivitch said:
Probably, possibly. But it's a case of diminishing returns on investment. Money is better aimed at the rest of the vehicle, be it batteries or chassis materials.
Reducing the mass of the motors is about the only thing, but they're not particularly bulky.
Electric motors just aren't particularly new tech, and have seen heavy investment for decades.
You essentially said what I said with about a tenth of the words! Oh dear it must be contagious on this thread...Reducing the mass of the motors is about the only thing, but they're not particularly bulky.
Electric motors just aren't particularly new tech, and have seen heavy investment for decades.
Ironically, one of the industries that has pushed for the improvements in motor/drive technologies is oil and gas. My first hand experience with the level of electrical power consumption in this sector is why I keep raising that exact point as to why EVs are so attractive in cutting out the middle man.
the dictionary said:
a road vehicle, typically with four wheels, powered by an internal combustion engine and able to carry a small number of people
well according to the official definition, electric vehicles aren't even cars 
My personal opinion is that I don't like them. Yes the tech is impressive, but that's about it. I'm a car enthusiast, a mechanical engineer and have spent the vast majority of my life involved in drag racing; so I like the mechanical aspect of cars, the engine is it's heart and soul. I like the noise, I like the connection between my right foot and controlling the machine under the bonnet. Maybe I'm a heathen, but for my personal circumstances I'm not particularly bothered about fuel economy or efficiency. EVs for me are too clinical, soulless even.
What's even worse seems to be the people who drive them! There are several threads running about electric vehicles and in all of them there seem to be these EV super-advocates that want to belittle or slag off people that aren't in to them. Each to their own, but I'll never be an EV fan and I certainly won't be "forced" to accept that they're better than a piston engined car.
Rat_Fink_67 said:
the dictionary said:
a road vehicle, typically with four wheels, powered by an internal combustion engine and able to carry a small number of people
well according to the official definition, electric vehicles aren't even cars My personal opinion is that I don't like them. Yes the tech is impressive, but that's about it. I'm a car enthusiast, a mechanical engineer and have spent the vast majority of my life involved in drag racing; so I like the mechanical aspect of cars, the engine is it's heart and soul. I like the noise, I like the connection between my right foot and controlling the machine under the bonnet. Maybe I'm a heathen, but for my personal circumstances I'm not particularly bothered about fuel economy or efficiency. EVs for me are too clinical, soulless even.
What's even worse seems to be the people who drive them! There are several threads running about electric vehicles and in all of them there seem to be these EV super-advocates that want to belittle or slag off people that aren't in to them. Each to their own, but I'll never be an EV fan and I certainly won't be "forced" to accept that they're better than a piston engined car.
Cars are primarily boxes to move people from a-b
We should be doing that as efficiently and as cleanly as possible. So BEV's
Most people dont enjoy or care for driving, mechanics or motoring in general.
EV's will actually long term help people who enjoy motoring as roads will be clearer air cleaner and petrol cheaper and not frowned on because it will be a small time hobby.
I'm not planning to give up my weekend toy, already plenty of faster more efficient cars out there. its fun though.
Rat_Fink_67 said:
My personal opinion is that I don't like them. Yes the tech is impressive, but that's about it. I'm a car enthusiast, a mechanical engineer and have spent the vast majority of my life involved in drag racing; so I like the mechanical aspect of cars, the engine is it's heart and soul. I like the noise, I like the connection between my right foot and controlling the machine under the bonnet.
Out of interest, how do you feel about throttle-by-wire, traction control and stability control? And does your current daily have them?I appreciate that EVs aren't an enthusiasts choice these days (I also keep a weekend car for fun), but many modern cars aren't fun either.
Rat_Fink_67 said:
the dictionary said:
a road vehicle, typically with four wheels, powered by an internal combustion engine and able to carry a small number of people
well according to the official definition, electric vehicles aren't even cars My personal opinion is that I don't like them. Yes the tech is impressive, but that's about it. I'm a car enthusiast, a mechanical engineer and have spent the vast majority of my life involved in drag racing; so I like the mechanical aspect of cars, the engine is it's heart and soul. I like the noise, I like the connection between my right foot and controlling the machine under the bonnet. Maybe I'm a heathen, but for my personal circumstances I'm not particularly bothered about fuel economy or efficiency. EVs for me are too clinical, soulless even.
What's even worse seems to be the people who drive them! There are several threads running about electric vehicles and in all of them there seem to be these EV super-advocates that want to belittle or slag off people that aren't in to them. Each to their own, but I'll never be an EV fan and I certainly won't be "forced" to accept that they're better than a piston engined car.
The best outcome for car enthusiasts is to remove all the non-enthusiast IC cars (which includes all diesels as far as I'm concerned), replace them with EVs and let the small minority who want to spend their money on running proper IC cars (read NA petrol cars) do so.
Maybe that way IC can survive long term. With the current situation it's dead in the water.
Rat_Fink_67 said:
My personal opinion is that I don't like them. Yes the tech is impressive, but that's about it. I'm a car enthusiast, a mechanical engineer and have spent the vast majority of my life involved in drag racing;
Not interested in the outrageous drag performance of EVs?Rat_Fink_67 said:
Maybe I'm a heathen, but for my personal circumstances I'm not particularly bothered about fuel economy or efficiency. EVs for me are too clinical, soulless even.
Well, I don't care much about fuel economy and the like either. But EVs are smoother and quieter than an equivalent small petrol hatchback, you can just get in from cold and it doesn't need to warm up before you can use all the performance, you can use a remote AC control to cool it down or warm it up before you leave the house, stuff like that. They're pretty nice for "generic car" duties and running around.
The vast majority of cars on the market are turgid bilge with uninspiring drivetrains which could only be improved with electrification. They will be replaced fairly quickly, and those which remain ICE will have to try a bit harder to make a virtue of their petrol engines when the electric alternatives cost less to run and leave them for dead at the lights. Likewise, attempts to replace those few cars which actually do have an inspiring petrol drivetrain will need to pull something more out of the bag than vicious acceleration.
otolith said:
The vast majority of cars on the market are turgid bilge with uninspiring drivetrains which could only be improved with electrification. They will be replaced fairly quickly, and those which remain ICE will have to try a bit harder to make a virtue of their petrol engines when the electric alternatives cost less to run and leave them for dead at the lights. Likewise, attempts to replace those few cars which actually do have an inspiring petrol drivetrain will need to pull something more out of the bag than vicious acceleration.
Thank you, I always wanted to know what TDi stands for, TurgiD bIle it isEvanivitch said:
Out of interest, how do you feel about throttle-by-wire, traction control and stability control? And does your current daily have them
No throttle by wire on my daily, but it does have traction and stability control. Both safety related though, and I wouldn't lose sleep over not having either to be honest. Where throttle by wire is concerned I appreciate it's a necessity when it comes to precise control of things like traction systems, cruise control, stability control etc, but again I'm not really fussed. I can see where you're going, but none of those systems detract from the fact that there's an ICE under the bonnet, nor do they compromise the sound of the V6 through stainless pipes 
GT119 said:
Do you mean petrol engined or are you including diesels in that too.
The best outcome for car enthusiasts is to remove all the non-enthusiast IC cars (which includes all diesels as far as I'm concerned), replace them with EVs and let the small minority who want to spend their money on running proper IC cars (read NA petrol cars) do so.
Maybe that way IC can survive long term. With the current situation it's dead in the water
Oh no, definitely not diesels! For commercial vehicles then fine, but I've never owned a diesel car and never will. I'm very happy about the impending clamp down and fall from grace of diesels, especially as the ever-less-reliable emission control systems have made my day job a chore in recent history. I can go weeks mired in various different injector, dpf, vapouriser and egr related faults!The best outcome for car enthusiasts is to remove all the non-enthusiast IC cars (which includes all diesels as far as I'm concerned), replace them with EVs and let the small minority who want to spend their money on running proper IC cars (read NA petrol cars) do so.
Maybe that way IC can survive long term. With the current situation it's dead in the water
jjwilde said:
Not interested in the outrageous drag performance of EVs?
Not really, not when I know of several super unleaded burning, street legal machines that can crack 200mph in 7 seconds. Also, at the top of piston engined food chain they're now on the verge of 340mph in 3.5 seconds, despite restrictions.I dare say the pro EV crowd will label me an infidel, but I just can't get enthusiastic about them. In the same way I never have about diesels. Yeah they're economical, refined, have clever tech etc etc, but they just don't appeal. For those who use cars as a tool then yeah I fully understand your choices, and I'd never mock or disrespect anyone based on their choice of vehicular motivation. But from a purely personal standpoint I'm sad that the focus would appear to be on silent, electric powered transport. Think of iconic cars over the years; Model T, Rolls Silver Ghost, Blower Bentley, E Type, DB5, Countach, 959, F40, XJ220, McLaren F1 etc, or even more mainstream stuff like the E30 M3, Delta Integrale, Sierra Cosworth, Impreza Turbo...would they still have been as iconic without their heartbeats?? I doubt it. Yes things move on, you can't put the genie back in the bottle so to speak, but I'll be hanging on to petrol power for as long as possible.
I'm not sure if there's cross purposes re the last page of posts....
I love an ICE, and I'm a regular at my local track and I love the v-twin on my bike.
I just think that for the majority of cars (completely disregarding range & whether everyone could charge one) an EV could replace them without there being much of a noticeable difference to most people. By that I mean that yes, my EV is incredibly smooth, quiet, fast enough, cheap to run/maintain and has a whole host of toys etc...but for the majority, it would just be another car. Most would not care a jot.
So yes, whilst I do think my EV is amazing, and suits my day to day driving down to the ground..... like hell would I wan tot give up my ICEs. Thankfully it's not a choice of one or the other.
Just to add, I'm enthusiastic about it because it allows me my other toys because it's such a cheap comfortable new car
I love an ICE, and I'm a regular at my local track and I love the v-twin on my bike.
I just think that for the majority of cars (completely disregarding range & whether everyone could charge one) an EV could replace them without there being much of a noticeable difference to most people. By that I mean that yes, my EV is incredibly smooth, quiet, fast enough, cheap to run/maintain and has a whole host of toys etc...but for the majority, it would just be another car. Most would not care a jot.
So yes, whilst I do think my EV is amazing, and suits my day to day driving down to the ground..... like hell would I wan tot give up my ICEs. Thankfully it's not a choice of one or the other.
Just to add, I'm enthusiastic about it because it allows me my other toys because it's such a cheap comfortable new car
Rat_Fink_67 said:
Not really, not when I know of several super unleaded burning, street legal machines that can crack 200mph in 7 seconds. Also, at the top of piston engined food chain they're now on the verge of 340mph in 3.5 seconds, despite restrictions.
I dare say the pro EV crowd will label me an infidel, but I just can't get enthusiastic about them. In the same way I never have about diesels. Yeah they're economical, refined, have clever tech etc etc, but they just don't appeal. For those who use cars as a tool then yeah I fully understand your choices, and I'd never mock or disrespect anyone based on their choice of vehicular motivation. But from a purely personal standpoint I'm sad that the focus would appear to be on silent, electric powered transport. Think of iconic cars over the years; Model T, Rolls Silver Ghost, Blower Bentley, E Type, DB5, Countach, 959, F40, XJ220, McLaren F1 etc, or even more mainstream stuff like the E30 M3, Delta Integrale, Sierra Cosworth, Impreza Turbo...would they still have been as iconic without their heartbeats?? I doubt it. Yes things move on, you can't put the genie back in the bottle so to speak, but I'll be hanging on to petrol power for as long as possible.
Personally I think the Model S will go down as a classic in history as the car that changed everything.I dare say the pro EV crowd will label me an infidel, but I just can't get enthusiastic about them. In the same way I never have about diesels. Yeah they're economical, refined, have clever tech etc etc, but they just don't appeal. For those who use cars as a tool then yeah I fully understand your choices, and I'd never mock or disrespect anyone based on their choice of vehicular motivation. But from a purely personal standpoint I'm sad that the focus would appear to be on silent, electric powered transport. Think of iconic cars over the years; Model T, Rolls Silver Ghost, Blower Bentley, E Type, DB5, Countach, 959, F40, XJ220, McLaren F1 etc, or even more mainstream stuff like the E30 M3, Delta Integrale, Sierra Cosworth, Impreza Turbo...would they still have been as iconic without their heartbeats?? I doubt it. Yes things move on, you can't put the genie back in the bottle so to speak, but I'll be hanging on to petrol power for as long as possible.
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