Electric cars, does everyone really think they are amazing.

Electric cars, does everyone really think they are amazing.

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pherlopolus

2,087 posts

157 months

Tuesday 24th October 2017
quotequote all
kambites said:
A 37% one, as the last column says. Which against a backdrop of a fall in overall car sales is fairly impressive, if hardly market-shattering.
If it continues year on year as a % it will soon make a difference.

Wuzzle

84 posts

77 months

Tuesday 24th October 2017
quotequote all
rscott said:
I'd also expect a slight slowdown in pure EV sales at the moment while people hang on for the Model 3 launch .
You're a funny guy.

Wuzzle

84 posts

77 months

Tuesday 24th October 2017
quotequote all
rscott said:
I'd also expect a slight slowdown in pure EV sales at the moment while people hang on for the Model 3 launch .
You're a funny guy.

caziques

2,567 posts

167 months

Tuesday 24th October 2017
quotequote all
Just step back a conversation or two (NZ is 12 hours ahead of UK time so I missed the bits about heat pumps)

A rough calculation shows I have installed about 250 hot water heat pumps here in NZ, both for heating water and houses (via what is know in the UK as wet underfloor).

I also have an early Leaf (ex Japan), and an eNV200 - the van version of the Leaf, again ex Japan.

The van is used to carry all underfloor heating stuff around, including the heat pumps- and I do about 300 miles a week.

Both underfloor heating with a heat pump and electric vehicles are the best solution for my circumstances - the heat pumps are 4 to 1 efficient- and around 80% of the electricity in NZ is renewable. The van costs about 1p per kilometre in fuel.

The efficiency of a heat pump drops as the temperature you are pumping through increases. Yes, the range of the van drops with the heater on, but it has heated seats and steering wheel - so not a major problem.

Like it or not, electric vehicles (for many people) are the future.

nbetts

1,455 posts

228 months

Tuesday 24th October 2017
quotequote all
SimonYorkshire said:
Of course speed effects ice range, but speed doesn't effect ice range as much as it effects EV range... that's just for starters.

Pherlopolous just said his petrol/diesel Qashqai range was only effect by 25% if he drove above 80mph. Actually he would find (if it has a manual gearbox) that his range would be furthest at around minimum speed for top gear without labouring the engine and range would only diminish for greater speeds than that, but still the ice range is not affected by anything near as much as EV range is effected by speed because ice engines are more efficient at making power higher power than they are at making lower power, it is just that increased drag from speed offsets this.


Edited by SimonYorkshire on Monday 23 October 12:28
Simon you do spout some clap trap, you really do. Speed affects an internal combustion engine potential range exactly the same as it does for an Electric Motor Vehicle.

What do you actually think the ICE gets more economical when it is doing more work...? Funnily enough when I drive my GT3 across Germany I found it guzzled fuel at 150mph - it did not all of a sudden in a break the rules of physics kind of way - fall into an optimal sweet spot and became more efficient.

All the forces that were acting upon the car at 50 mph got inversely greater the faster I went.

Coupled with the fact that Internal Combustion Engines are only around 35% efficient, what with all the heat / noise they produce - not to mention the oil pumps / water pumps / ancillaries that all take away energy from the ICE in way of mechanical loss.

I do agree with you that the convenience of just nipping into shell / bp / esso for a splash of unleaded or diesel is very convenient and the EV world is not at that level of maturity - I will give you that

Also, lets not forget also that energy density in a kilo of Li-Ion batteries is about 5 times less that a litre of unleaded fuel - although it may not be that bad now as battery tech is improving slowly.

Essentially, if I needed to travel to Moscow without refuelling in an internal Combustion car - You cannot do it today. Just as I cannot do it in an EV.

If you need to travel 300 miles at a time without stopping - and then once destination reached, do a U-Turn and come straight home - You will be unable to do it in an EV - I will give you that.

You should be able to do it in a very efficient diesel relatively easily

Your argument is tenuous, but valid I suppose.

When EV's are available in a format that I like/desire and can crack 300 miles in range no sweat - then that will be the day it will become my main car. Until then I am very happy with my BMW i3 and my BMW X5M (which cannot do 300 miles on its huge fuel tank) either.

I am hopeful that the Porsche Mission E (or whatever they call it) will do exactly that. I also hear good things about the Jaguar i-Pace being able to meet my requirements.

Edited by nbetts on Tuesday 24th October 10:19


Edited by nbetts on Tuesday 24th October 10:20

TooLateForAName

4,727 posts

183 months

Tuesday 24th October 2017
quotequote all
Wuzzle said:
You're a funny guy.
Whereas your blatant misrepresentation of those figures is what?

There are several new ev models out very soon - why is it strange that people are waiting for them? I know a few people waiting on the new Leaf.

Wuzzle

84 posts

77 months

Tuesday 24th October 2017
quotequote all
TooLateForAName said:
Wuzzle said:
You're a funny guy.
Whereas your blatant misrepresentation of those figures is what?

There are several new ev models out very soon - why is it strange that people are waiting for them? I know a few people waiting on the new Leaf.
Oh do go away.


Blatant misrepresentation of what exactly?


My point was they can't give away EVs as things are, we would anyone think the market is waiting for the vastly more expensive Tesla Model 3.

InitialDave

11,854 posts

118 months

Tuesday 24th October 2017
quotequote all
Then why are general car sales showing a far larger drop than EV sales?

TooLateForAName

4,727 posts

183 months

Tuesday 24th October 2017
quotequote all
Wuzzle said:
TooLateForAName said:
Wuzzle said:
You're a funny guy.
Whereas your blatant misrepresentation of those figures is what?

There are several new ev models out very soon - why is it strange that people are waiting for them? I know a few people waiting on the new Leaf.
Oh do go away.


Blatant misrepresentation of what exactly?


My point was they can't give away EVs as things are, we would anyone think the market is waiting for the vastly more expensive Tesla Model 3.
Well as has been pointed out, those figures show significant year on year growth of ev sales which you present as a fall in sales because of a drop in sales last month (about -1.5% as opposed to around -10% for ICE)

There are people on a long wait for a model 3, but more to the point as I said the new Leaf is almost here. It was announced at the beginning of september which I'm sure has no bearing on Sept EV sales?

98elise

26,376 posts

160 months

Tuesday 24th October 2017
quotequote all
Wuzzle said:
TooLateForAName said:
Wuzzle said:
You're a funny guy.
Whereas your blatant misrepresentation of those figures is what?

There are several new ev models out very soon - why is it strange that people are waiting for them? I know a few people waiting on the new Leaf.
Oh do go away.


Blatant misrepresentation of what exactly?


My point was they can't give away EVs as things are, we would anyone think the market is waiting for the vastly more expensive Tesla Model 3.
The model 3 has 400,000 orders, and hardly anyone has even driven one let alone seen one.

I ordered mine at the reveal, so I'm definitely someone waiting on a Model 3....as are all the other UK buyers

rscott

14,690 posts

190 months

Tuesday 24th October 2017
quotequote all
Wuzzle said:
Some meat for you all to chew on...

All taken from the well respected SMMT website.

Total new car registrations in Sept - nearly 430,000.

Total pure EV sales - 2000 (down from last year).

Hybrid - 15,000.





You do the math, as some people like to say.
If I take the Wuzzle approach and use the figures for August, then EV sales are up 62% ....



Edited by odie.mod on Tuesday 24th October 15:10

anonymous-user

53 months

Tuesday 24th October 2017
quotequote all
Trust me, compared to the (inevitable) march of autonomy for passenger cars, simply swapping out the dino-burner for a 'lecy motor is a walk in the park.

if people are getting upset about potentially loosing their ICE, imagine how angry they are going to be when forced out of the driving seat altogether......


(the day an accident occurs, and someone is killed by a human driver when an autonomous one would not have crashed is the day we will see a huge sea change in social attitudes to passenger cars imo)

AW111

9,455 posts

132 months

Tuesday 24th October 2017
quotequote all
I'm waiting for the next-generation sports car EV's.
150 mile range, 2 seats, < 1200 kg is quite doable with current tech - give it 5 years and someone should be building one.

If not, I'll have to start haunting the wreckers for crashed EV's to strip. An electric Imp would be fun.

kambites

67,461 posts

220 months

Tuesday 24th October 2017
quotequote all
The Tesla Roadster came pretty close to that nearly ten years ago (although it was a bit heavier and bloody expensive).

Pooh

3,692 posts

252 months

Tuesday 24th October 2017
quotequote all
I ordered my new Zoe in early August but will not get it until January, a lot of people are in the same position so this combined with the other causes mentioned above may partially account for a drop in registrations. I think the delay is due to the popularity of the new 41KWH version.

Tony427

2,873 posts

232 months

Tuesday 24th October 2017
quotequote all
98elise said:
The model 3 has 400,000 orders, and hardly anyone has even driven one let alone seen one.
The definition of Hype.

Latest figures are greater than 400k, yet production is not ramping up sufficiently to keep up with, never mind clear the backlog and by all accounts they are still losing money on each one.

To increase production further they has sacked loads of people.

Can anyone see why EV seems more of a religion or faith, rather than a simple support for a "consumer white good" version of motoring.

Would you feel the same about a washing machine for example?

Which would tend to expain the evangelical nature of the comments on the thread and the personal attacks on non-believers.

The only EV owner I know sent his back as the range was pathetic, and he's a retired guy well past 70. I would have thought it was perfect for him, but the attraction of a free coffee and paper at Waitrose as he charged up soon paled.

He then went for a small diesel, which he has since px'ed and has just taken delivery of the same model of EV although it has double the range of the previous.

He hopes it will be enough.

His wife complains that it's the coldest car they have ever had as he refuses to let her have the heater on.

Cheers,

Tony










InitialDave

11,854 posts

118 months

Tuesday 24th October 2017
quotequote all
Tony427 said:
Can anyone see why EV seems more of a religion or faith, rather than a simple support for a "consumer white good" version of motoring.

Would you feel the same about a washing machine for example?
No, feel the same way I do about, say, an Aygo. If someone says something's rubbish for nonsense reasons,they'll be argued with.
Tony427 said:
Which would tend to expain the evangelical nature of the comments on the thread and the personal attacks on non-believers.
People are annoyed with them. Not so much for being "non-believers", more for being thick and not understanding the subject matter.
Tony427 said:
The only EV owner I know sent his back as the range was pathetic, and he's a retired guy well past 70. I would have thought it was perfect for him, but the attraction of a free coffee and paper at Waitrose as he charged up soon paled.

He then went for a small diesel, which he has since px'ed and has just taken delivery of the same model of EV although it has double the range of the previous.

He hopes it will be enough.

His wife complains that it's the coldest car they have ever had as he refuses to let her have the heater on.
Sounds like he's the problem rather than the car. Buy what fits your needs.


Garybee

452 posts

165 months

Tuesday 24th October 2017
quotequote all
Max_Torque said:
(the day an accident occurs, and someone is killed by a human driver when an autonomous one would not have crashed is the day we will see a huge sea change in social attitudes to passenger cars imo)
That day has already passed probably thousands of times and no huge sea change seems to have occurred. The most likely sea change in attitudes will be when an autonomous vehicle kills someone.

Edited by Garybee on Tuesday 24th October 13:52

andrewrob

2,912 posts

189 months

Tuesday 24th October 2017
quotequote all
Tony427 said:
Can anyone see why EV seems more of a religion or faith, rather than a simple support for a "consumer white good" version of motoring.

Would you feel the same about a washing machine for example?

Which would tend to expain the evangelical nature of the comments on the thread and the personal attacks on non-believers.

The only EV owner I know sent his back as the range was pathetic, and he's a retired guy well past 70. I would have thought it was perfect for him, but the attraction of a free coffee and paper at Waitrose as he charged up soon paled.

He then went for a small diesel, which he has since px'ed and has just taken delivery of the same model of EV although it has double the range of the previous.

He hopes it will be enough.

His wife complains that it's the coldest car they have ever had as he refuses to let her have the heater on.

Cheers,

Tony
Probably because people that don't know much about washing machines don't seem to argue with people that do know about washing machines with such ferocity.

As for the guy you know, he just needs to turn the heater on as it only knock 3 miles off of the range

Mr2Mike

20,143 posts

254 months

Tuesday 24th October 2017
quotequote all
SimonYorkshire said:
It turns out you don't get the 3kw of thermal energy.

Put it like this, if shifting/pumping heat were 100% efficient then with less than 1w of power we could make a place that was at 273 deg K o deg K but we can't. If shifting heat were 100% efficient we could use less than 1w of power to make an area outside our houses -20c but heat the inside to 23c but we can't. Where do you think the '3x; comes from, and how accurate do you think it is, and are you so sure about this that you too have bought a heat pump to heat your house?
You are demonstrating a significant degree of ignorance here.

Just because a heat pump may only work well within a range of temperatures, it does not mean that it's inefficient. That would be as nonsensical as saying an LED light bulb that doesn't produce as much power as a 100W incandescent must be inefficient, irrespective that it's using less power.

Using a heat pump to raise the temperature of a small enclosed space (e.g. a house) by some arbitrary amount does not require that the heat source drop by the same amount. You seem to be confusing temperature and energy, which is probably why you are so confused about the operation of heat pumps.

The term "efficiency" is also of little use when talking about heat pumps, since is isn't a direct energy conversion system i.e. it does not convert electricity into heat as a resistive heater would do, but rather it moves heat energy. Instead COP, or 'Coefficient of Performance' is used to express the amount of heat pumped (at somewhat less than 100% efficiency) vs the amount of energy expended in pumping it. An electrical heater has a COP close to, but never greater than 1. A practical heat pump can have a COP of 3 or 4. No laws of thermodynamics are broken, no energy is magically created or destroyed.

FWIW plenty of people do now use heat pumps for home heating, but the most effective type are ground heat pumps that quite literally extract energy from the ground via a buried collector, since ground temperature remains fairly stable throughout the year. They require significant work and expense to install, and may not possible for many dwellings which is why they aren't as popular as they might be for retro fitting.