Electric cars, does everyone really think they are amazing.
Discussion
SimonYorkshire said:
Insulation is a mute point. New homes are a mute point unless you're looking the best part of 100 years into the future. Log burners, when the best part of the case for EVs hinges on emissions...really? Think I'll convert my ice to run on wood gas now lol.
Like I've said before, if you think heat pumps are so great, efficient and cheap to run, seems like you have yourself a great idea to start a business that will make you vastly rich. Face it, the biggest reason EVs use heat pumps for heating instead of a normal electrical resistive heater is that they employ the AC components running in opposite mode (to aircon) to provide heat, which limits the necessary component count. Of course this means you can't have both cooling (dehumidifying) and heating at the same time in an EV, and the only reason this is a positive for an EV is actually a negative in itself... you wouldn't want to run both AC and heating at the same time in an EV when either of those uses a lot of power from the battery, so to run both at the same time would use twice as much power from the battery and effect range still further.
Yes evs do run air con and heat at the same time when you demist and no it doesn't make a great deal of difference to range, on a 4 year old car with a 24kw battery it takes out 3 miles of the 80 mile rangeLike I've said before, if you think heat pumps are so great, efficient and cheap to run, seems like you have yourself a great idea to start a business that will make you vastly rich. Face it, the biggest reason EVs use heat pumps for heating instead of a normal electrical resistive heater is that they employ the AC components running in opposite mode (to aircon) to provide heat, which limits the necessary component count. Of course this means you can't have both cooling (dehumidifying) and heating at the same time in an EV, and the only reason this is a positive for an EV is actually a negative in itself... you wouldn't want to run both AC and heating at the same time in an EV when either of those uses a lot of power from the battery, so to run both at the same time would use twice as much power from the battery and effect range still further.
Also
anonymous said:
[redacted]
Not so confusing really ;-)
DELETED: Comment made by a member who's account has been deleted. I didn't mention hydrogen fuel cells, I mentioned using hydrogen as ice fuel, you don't need a hydrogen fuel cell, batteries, electric motors or upgrades to electrical infrastructure to have a vehicle fuelled by hydrogen, you just need a fairly standard ice fitted with a hydrogen gas tank and alternative fuel delivery system.
I did humour your mention of an LPG nightmare posted a few days ago by checking on what you might have been talking about. You will be referring to the LPG converted Audi with the low mounted LPG filling point. No I didn't convert that vehicle but I did notice on that thread that you insinuated I did convert it (or who else do you call 'LPG sniffer'). You have seen an example of my work https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&... , why would you think I do shoddy work?
Toltec said:
The spelling you are looking for is moot.
If a new house is insulated and air tight enough so it needs a quarter or less of the heating of an older house then using electricity is going to be cheaper than the gas used by the old house. It depends on the overall energy required, for a small house it may be economic anyway given the costs of fitting a hydronic heating system versus a simpler electric system. Heat pumps only make sense where there is no mains gas and the house has a modern thermal design, i.e. they make sense for certain use cases. If you are going to fit air-conditioning then the extra cost to put in a reversible system vs a gas boiler may also work out.
The log burner was intended to be ironic.
Thanks for the spelling correction... whatever.If a new house is insulated and air tight enough so it needs a quarter or less of the heating of an older house then using electricity is going to be cheaper than the gas used by the old house. It depends on the overall energy required, for a small house it may be economic anyway given the costs of fitting a hydronic heating system versus a simpler electric system. Heat pumps only make sense where there is no mains gas and the house has a modern thermal design, i.e. they make sense for certain use cases. If you are going to fit air-conditioning then the extra cost to put in a reversible system vs a gas boiler may also work out.
The log burner was intended to be ironic.
So all we need to do to make EVs still make less sense than hydrogen cars in the event of fussion power being invented is to knock down most existing housing and rebuild new more energy efficient housing?
Can you extrapolate on why heat pumps only make sense when the house has a modern thermal design?
And then I'll ask if you think an EV has as good insulation as a modern energy efficient design house.
And then just throw in the scenario of an EV driver stuck in a jam in winter... Might be handy to have an emergency gas heater fitted. And since you have the gas tank onboard now, why not go a bit further and fit an emergency gas powered generator lol...
The log burner definitely is ironic in a way, except in your extrapolation on heat pumps you should have included the bit about heat pumps only really being suitable for modern heat efficient houses because they kick out little heat in comparison to gas powered central heating, so even for the energy efficient modern house the owner may well find themselves buying a portable gas fire or additional electric (resistive) heating. But you could always fit more than one heat pump.... or why would that be a problem?
andrewrob said:
Yes evs do run air con and heat at the same time when you demist and no it doesn't make a great deal of difference to range, on a 4 year old car with a 24kw battery it takes out 3 miles of the 80 mile range
This gets better and better lol.... So now pro EVers are saying demisting their EV, which only had 80 miles range to start with, reduces range by 3 miles? So in other words, before you can drive away on a day that requires demisting you lose 4% of your range just by demisting? Sounds great! And yet, pro EVers say, the ability to pre heat your EV while it is still plugged into the mains is a great bonus of EVs, nothing to do with using the heater/aircon detracting from range at all, obviously...If I put aircon on at the same time as heating is on full in my ice car, the heat blowing out of the vents is hardly any different to heat blowing out of the vents with aircon off. How about for your EV? Is demist the only time you can have aircon and heat at the same time? Using aircon on my car hardly effects range at all, how about for an EV (we know the answer from the Tesla site I linked to)? If I use the heater in mt car it doesn't affect range at all, how about for an EV (again we know the answer)?
Err, it's a 24kwh Leaf; yes an 80 mile real-world range sounds about right? What's wrong with that?
I know this is high grade thinking for some, but those who need a longer range can... wait for it... buy a car with a longer range! Or an ICE powered car if they really want. No-one is saying that a 24kwh Leaf is going to be suitable for people driving hundreds of miles a day, with or without demisting losses.
I know this is high grade thinking for some, but those who need a longer range can... wait for it... buy a car with a longer range! Or an ICE powered car if they really want. No-one is saying that a 24kwh Leaf is going to be suitable for people driving hundreds of miles a day, with or without demisting losses.
Edited by kambites on Friday 3rd November 17:40
kambites said:
Err, it's a 24kwh Leaf; yes an 80 mile real-world range sounds about right? What's wrong with that?
I know this is high grade thinking for some, but those who need a longer range can... wait for it... buy a car with a longer range! Or an ICE powered car if they really want. No-one is saying that a 24kwh Leaf is going to be suitable for people driving hundreds of miles a day, with or without demisting losses.
I think your post was slightly off topic of recent conversation. I know this is high grade thinking for some, but those who need a longer range can... wait for it... buy a car with a longer range! Or an ICE powered car if they really want. No-one is saying that a 24kwh Leaf is going to be suitable for people driving hundreds of miles a day, with or without demisting losses.
Edited by kambites on Friday 3rd November 17:40
Yes there's nothing wrong with the 24Kwh Leaf only managing 80 miles. But I do see a problem with the thinking anyone who wants more range should buy an EV with 100/200/300 mile range - Because, like I've said before, the charge time issue builds on the range issue. Example - someone regularly only drives 20 miles per day but occasionally likes to drive 100 miles to the coast at the weekend, round trip 200 miles and very rarely drives 300 miles to visit Aunt Bessy. At the nice spot at the coast there are no charging points, let alone supercharging points, Aunt Bessy only has 3 pin plug sockets and the intention is only to stay there for a few hours before driving home anyway. Do you advise them to buy a Leaf with 80 mile range, or a more expensive EV with 200 mile range, or a still more expensive EV with 300 mile range, or do you advise them to buy a hybrid? The smart money goes on the hybrid, or perhaps the Leaf if this is a 2 car household and the other car is an ice. Seems I keep having to spell this out to some thinkers.
Fancy a bit of role-play lol... I could pretend to be a bloke who parked beside you at the coast, I'm in my ice, you're in your EV., we get talking and I show interest in your EV... 'Hello that;s different, an EV eh. how do you rate it'?
I'm not sure anyone is even saying that everyone will be driving an EV any time soon. Just that a great many people (myself almost certainly included) probably will.
If someone asked me about the situation described above, I'd probably suggest a plug-in hybrid with a big enough range to cover the daily grind on pure electric. If they have two cars in the household (as most households do these days), I'd suggest a short-range pure EV and a range extender hybrid.
I'm not sure where you've got this bizarre idea that anyone thinks every single car in the UK has to go pure electric with the technology as it stands today.
If someone asked me about the situation described above, I'd probably suggest a plug-in hybrid with a big enough range to cover the daily grind on pure electric. If they have two cars in the household (as most households do these days), I'd suggest a short-range pure EV and a range extender hybrid.
I'm not sure where you've got this bizarre idea that anyone thinks every single car in the UK has to go pure electric with the technology as it stands today.
Edited by kambites on Friday 3rd November 18:23
SimonYorkshire said:
Oh look Tonrobot's getting all irate again
DELETED: Comment made by a member who's account has been deleted.SimonYorkshire said:
I didn't mention hydrogen fuel cells, I mentioned using hydrogen as ice fuel, you don't need a hydrogen fuel cell, batteries, electric motors or upgrades to electrical infrastructure to have a vehicle fuelled by hydrogen, you just need a fairly standard ice fitted with a hydrogen gas tank and alternative fuel delivery system.
SimonYorkshire said:
why would you think I do shoddy work?
I doubt you're laughing, it still seems you struggle to keep up with thread relevant replies.
A hydrogen fuelled ice car could have all the same advantages over an EV as a current ice car, i.e. quick refuelling and longer range. Also, if the fusion power generation situation is realised, we don't know that government won't force the issue, e.g., 'all new cars by 2050 must be hydrogen ice powered and all new house heating must be electric'. Too far into the future to effect you or me perhaps, but I say any pure EV future is also too far into the future to effect me - the tech for a pure EV vehicle only future isn't here yet and we don't know if fussion power will be invented before vastly better batteries and better electrical infrastructure are rolled out.
I don't operate out of a shed, my business is going from strength to strength, thanks! You know very little about my business or the LPG conversion trade in general. You do seem to think a trade association must always be a positive, why? The majority in my trade see this trade's 'association' for what it is and have chosen not to join. I have previously explained why it isn't a positive in my profession and I explained why I choose not to join it. I don't support associations I don't believe in, why would I? You think you always know best and when you don't have a good answer you resort to diversion and bull. If I'm arguing over nothing, you're doing the same because you're part of the same argument. At least I stick to the points, you're the novelty here like some daft bloke in a meeting who has little to say but knows how he wants the discussion to go and soon resorts to shouting, personal attacks and switching subjects when it doesn't go his way.
Edited by SimonYorkshire on Friday 3rd November 19:00
DELETED: Comment made by a member who's account has been deleted.
Firstly, ditto what I said in my last post lol.. You've done the same again!Explain the Leaf 2 week car hire scheme?
Who said the visit to Aunt Bessy would be only once a year?
The LPG conversion trade is looking set to grow, thanks to decreased numbers of diesels on the road that cannot be converted to LPG and increase in hybrids that have petrol engines which can be converted to LPG, great! And increased awareness of alternative 'fuel' vehicles such as EVs is also meaning greater numbers of people are looking into other alternatives such as LPG at the same time, great again! And all guaranteed until 2040, great again!
Your last sentence is the creepiest so far on this thread. I suggested a scenario where two blokes talk cars in a car park. You twisted this into, what, something kind of sexual now? Back to see my 2 year old now, dam I'd better not tell you we'll probably do a bit of role play eh. The spelling you were previously looking for is sick not sic.
SimonYorkshire said:
Firstly, ditto what I said in my last post lol.. You've done the same again!
Explain the Leaf 2 week car hire scheme?
Who said the visit to Aunt Bessy would be only once a year?
The LPG conversion trade is looking set to grow, thanks to decreased numbers of diesels on the road that cannot be converted to LPG and increase in hybrids that have petrol engines which can be converted to LPG, great! And increased awareness of alternative 'fuel' vehicles such as EVs is also meaning greater numbers of people are looking into other alternatives such as LPG at the same time, great again! And all guaranteed until 2040, great again!
Your last sentence is the creepiest so far on this thread. I suggested a scenario where two blokes talk cars in a car park. You twisted this into, what, something kind of sexual now? Back to see my 2 year old now, dam I'd better not tell you we'll probably do a bit of role play eh. The spelling you were previously looking for is sick not sic.
With every leaf you get 2 weeks free use of a conventional car from Nissan. We didn't need it in 2 years. Explain the Leaf 2 week car hire scheme?
Who said the visit to Aunt Bessy would be only once a year?
The LPG conversion trade is looking set to grow, thanks to decreased numbers of diesels on the road that cannot be converted to LPG and increase in hybrids that have petrol engines which can be converted to LPG, great! And increased awareness of alternative 'fuel' vehicles such as EVs is also meaning greater numbers of people are looking into other alternatives such as LPG at the same time, great again! And all guaranteed until 2040, great again!
Your last sentence is the creepiest so far on this thread. I suggested a scenario where two blokes talk cars in a car park. You twisted this into, what, something kind of sexual now? Back to see my 2 year old now, dam I'd better not tell you we'll probably do a bit of role play eh. The spelling you were previously looking for is sick not sic.
SimonYorkshire said:
The LPG conversion trade is looking set to grow, thanks to decreased numbers of diesels on the road that cannot be converted to LPG and increase in hybrids that have petrol engines which can be converted to LPG, great! And increased awareness of alternative 'fuel' vehicles such as EVs is also meaning greater numbers of people are looking into other alternatives such as LPG at the same time, great again! And all guaranteed until 2040, great again!
BP withdrawing LPG from forecourts.https://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/motorhomes/news/...
Australia, that has in the past subsidised LPG installations is seeing a dramatic decline
http://www.erpecnewslive.com/article/1192/petrol-d...
AutoGas's attempts to push the "cleaner" message is falling on deaf years as cities are moving towards zero tail pipe emissions. Less isn't as good as none.
Edited by Evanivitch on Saturday 4th November 12:47
Just adding to the fuel economy at different speeds.
Driving like an angel, 26mpg but this takes lots of planning and is actually quite tiring
Driving with the cruise set at 90 mph, 21 mpg. Measured by fill up.
I'm an ex diesel test cell operator so my inner geek lets me do sad things like this when I get or have the use of a new car. That was with a 300hp 5.0 litre SUV with a roofbox, 4 people.
It can only be good that people are so passionate about ICE and EV cars as everyone should be a winner aslong as silly government rules don't get in the way.
Dave!
Driving like an angel, 26mpg but this takes lots of planning and is actually quite tiring
Driving with the cruise set at 90 mph, 21 mpg. Measured by fill up.
I'm an ex diesel test cell operator so my inner geek lets me do sad things like this when I get or have the use of a new car. That was with a 300hp 5.0 litre SUV with a roofbox, 4 people.
It can only be good that people are so passionate about ICE and EV cars as everyone should be a winner aslong as silly government rules don't get in the way.
Dave!
SidewaysSi said:
Electric cars are dull. Fine for people who don't care for driving.
My leaf is dull to drive, but that's all I need for the daily commute....my fun car, isn't really suitable for the daily slog, neither is my motorbike. Not sure why that means I don't care for driving.
ikarl said:
SidewaysSi said:
Electric cars are dull. Fine for people who don't care for driving.
My leaf is dull to drive, but that's all I need for the daily commute....my fun car, isn't really suitable for the daily slog, neither is my motorbike. Not sure why that means I don't care for driving.
ikarl said:
My leaf is dull to drive, but that's all I need for the daily commute....my fun car, isn't really suitable for the daily slog, neither is my motorbike.
Not sure why that means I don't care for driving.
This.Not sure why that means I don't care for driving.
I find it a lot better to have something fairly generic for commuting, and be able to treat other stuff like the toys they generally are.
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