RE: New TVR - the update

RE: New TVR - the update

Author
Discussion

PunterCam

1,069 posts

194 months

Sunday 13th August 2017
quotequote all
I really hope it's good, but I do think they've priced it too high.. The different structural tech is interesting, but if it's adding cost then I think it misses the point.

20 grand more than an Evora is the number I keep thinking of. 40 more than a base level F Type. Yes the TVR will be MUCH faster, but they were always much faster. That was the point. Much faster, hand made, a bit dodgy but fantastic. They competed with M3s in terms of money, not 911s, and that's largely why they were successful! In pricing themselves "up" the car will have to be very very good, full stop.

I hope it works for them. If it's genuinely well made (proper build quality, not just screwed together with self tappers like the old cars) is simple to maintain and reliable then they'll be half way there. Shame the engine won't be as special as the speed 8/6, but hopefully it's got something interesting about it, and none of that awful self-blipping, fake pops and bangs, tacky blip on startup nonsense.

anonymous-user

53 months

Sunday 13th August 2017
quotequote all
DonkeyApple said:
m3jappa said:
Im not sure why people get so caught up with traction control. Abs is a fair one but tc is not essential imo. It might be if your a fking idiot but then if your a fking idiot you shouldn't be pushing on in a powerful car.

If the car is set up well it will be predictable and balanced. I've got a tuscan and i simply respect the fact its dangerous when the roads are cold or wet. otherwise its extremely predictable, same as my old 420bhp evo9 gt, same as my old e36 track car. All very very easy to drive when set up well.

An example is a mercedes clk350 we used to have. it could be abused with tc on, no oversteer at all, almost no chance of losing it. turn off tc and it was awful, it was like a boat when it oversteered, in fact if you did get any oversteer it was verging on being out of control and was dangerous. i can only assume the chassis set up wasn't as good as the other non tc cars was.

Tbh as well I've never had a problem with no abs in my tuscan.

so id rather not have a tc system which simply masks a st chassis. Id rather have a properly sorted and well set up car which i have a feeling this is going to be!
TC is essential. It was essential back in the 90s.

Just think back to the number of people who jumped into TVRs from a lifetime of front wheel drive cars or cars with traction control and who then spun off into a hedge because they put their foot down while pulling out to overtake or put their foot down joining from a slip road.

Even Wheeler recognised the issues which is why later cars like mine have TC.

You and I along with lots of others may be used to pokey RWD cars and understand they aren't the same as an M3 loaded with aids or a Clio Cup but all the evidence points to a vast number of owners never making that leap of understanding until they dropped the clutch in third, engine braked to a roundabout, accelerated over white lines or floored it while pulling out to over take and ended up kaput.

In 2017 there are going to be even fewer people aware of how to drive pokey RWD without TC than there were in the mid 90s.

Tools to help tools, along with helping the misfortunate are vital I think.
It's much more than that.

I don't care how good a driver you are, no driver can generate the yaw authority that a dynamically controlled split braking system can. (you'd need 4 brake pedals, four matching feet, and 4 brains!).

Why does this matter? Because when the S**T hits the fan, it does so quickly, with little warning, and as a human, even if you're the best driver in the world (and you're not) true emergency inputs often lead to a loss of control. Watch that Elise video i posted a few pages ago. A guy out for a Sunday drive with his wife, not going that fast, enjoying the car and then whammo, he's in the barriers. If a car had been coming the other way, there is a good chance that "sunday drive" would have resulted in the death of this wife. Think about that for a minute. No really, think about it. Now come back and tell me you don't care about having DSC...........

Our PH driving Gods can go on about "he was a numpty" or "wouldn't have happened to me" but you know what, every day in the UK, people just like You and I loose control of our cars and crash, often causing serious injury or death.

The new TVR is mean't to be a practical, useable road car. Able to be driven on our roads, in all weathers and all times. Sure, it can be raw, exciting, fun or whatever, but DSC doesn't prevent that (it actually helps btw, because you can set the basic chassis settings to a more extreme level knowing that the DSC is there to jump in an save the occasional slip n slide!).

If anything, basic Traction Control (equivalent to lifting the throttle pedal) is the 'pointless thing' that a good driver doesn't need, rather than Stability Control which does something no driver can.

m3jappa

6,391 posts

217 months

Sunday 13th August 2017
quotequote all
The above posts are valid i will agree, however a couple of things.

I hope the tc in this car (if it indeed does have it) is decent and doesn't mask inherent flaws, or its too intrusive and can feel it actively working against you. i don't know enough about it all to be able to say how it should be but i just hope it doesn't ruin the thing.

Second thought is this one, plenty of cars still have tc and all sorts of other driver aids and people still manage to wrap them up in ways i couldn't imagine. People crashing evos, gtrs and all sorts of other cars with aids which basically do it all for you.

I went out with a mate in his c63, it had been remapped, decat etc and it felt much much quicker than standard. Anyway, the point is was that while he's not a bad driver i was amazed at how much he could literally take the piss in the thing. the thought of him driving my tuscan in the same manner would certainly of seen him backwards through a hedge hehe

thesmurfs

117 posts

95 months

Sunday 13th August 2017
quotequote all
No electronics aids in this day and age is just barmy. I'd take a Porsche 911 over this any day.

ChilliWhizz

11,990 posts

160 months

Sunday 13th August 2017
quotequote all
thesmurfs said:
No electronics aids in this day and age is just barmy. I'd take a Porsche 911 over this any day.
Yep, last time I took someone out in the Chim they said "This is just barmy". And it wasn't even in the wet biggrin I guess it would have gone up the road straight rather than slightly sideways though if it had DSC scratchchin

rodericb

6,657 posts

125 months

Sunday 13th August 2017
quotequote all
I know the production numbers of the TVR are much lower but when Ducati and Aprilia superbikes costing twenty grand are packing stability control I do sort of wonder.... And I'd have thought with all the different makes and models of cars with stability control, it'd be pretty much a matter of stuffing an inordinate amount of numbers about the vehicle into a computer and it'd work pretty much everything out, with some final tweaking by test drivers to validate.

It's not so much to enable idiots to do silly things, but to broaden their potential customer base as many people believe stability control is necessary to prevent them from pretty much dying in a fireball on their first outing on a wet road.

anonymous-user

53 months

Sunday 13th August 2017
quotequote all
thesmurfs said:
No electronics aids in this day and age is just barmy. I'd take a Porsche 911 over this any day.
Ah, but then a smurf would right? wink

I suggest we wait and see what TC options are available before getting too carried away. I'm not sure where the idea of no traction control came from but it's been mentioned several times that it will be there, with a big OFF switch for those who want a bit of barmy in their life.

Secondly while price may put it up against the 911, for the thrill of driving I'd be aiming significantly higher.

bullittmcqueen

1,256 posts

90 months

Sunday 13th August 2017
quotequote all
Don't know who got the idea started that it would not have ABS or TC. It definitely will have those. It's been stated numerous times, Les said so and it's mandatory anyway, even ESC is.


http://www.chooseesc.eu/en/news/mandatory.htm

http://www.automotive-technology.co.uk/?p=2263

HarryW

15,150 posts

268 months

Sunday 13th August 2017
quotequote all
Looking forward to 4 weeks time..

anonymous-user

53 months

Sunday 13th August 2017
quotequote all
bullittmcqueen said:
Don't know who got the idea started that it would not have ABS or TC. It definitely will have those. It's been stated numerous times, Les said so and it's mandatory anyway, even ESC is.


http://www.chooseesc.eu/en/news/mandatory.htm

http://www.automotive-technology.co.uk/?p=2263
The new TVR is being type approved under the UK low volume limited type approval scheme, and hence does not conform to full EU homologation rules, and as such it does not need to have things like DSC or meet certain crash standards etc.

The issue with DSC is not so much the calibration of the actual DSC system (although that is no trivial matter) but the fact you must have a torque based and accurately calibrated engine management system. This is because the DSC needs to be able to control both negative wheel torque (friction braking + engine braking) and positive wheel torque (engine positive torque output). Accurate flywheel torque control is critical to the success of a DSC system, especially on slippy surfaces where it is likely to be relied on the most.

I don't know if TVR are using the EMS system supplied with the crate engine (prototypes ran with aftermarket ems) but that system will be torque based, but will require a huge calibration and especially validation effort in a new platform.

SidewaysSi

10,742 posts

233 months

Sunday 13th August 2017
quotequote all
thecook101 said:
thesmurfs said:
No electronics aids in this day and age is just barmy. I'd take a Porsche 911 over this any day.
Ah, but then a smurf would right? wink

I suggest we wait and see what TC options are available before getting too carried away. I'm not sure where the idea of no traction control came from but it's been mentioned several times that it will be there, with a big OFF switch for those who want a bit of barmy in their life.

Secondly while price may put it up against the 911, for the thrill of driving I'd be aiming significantly higher.
Damn right and totally agree. Something like an Exige or Caterham for instance.

unsprung

5,467 posts

123 months

Sunday 13th August 2017
quotequote all
TA14 said:
unsprung said:
"It needs drama, reliability and a brutal nature, like the old TVR's."

That's why the reincarnation of TVR should be a more spartan performance car with an inclusive approach to export markets.
No, that's Lotus.

unsprung said:
"It needs drama, reliability and a brutal nature, like the old TVR's."

the proposed car sounds overspec'd: carbon chassis, "full luxury leather interior," special paint, special wheels. This is a strategy that puts the accent on exquisite and posh -- as well as the cost of goods that go with that.
which all sounds just like the old philosophy and cars
Then I believe that, regrettably, the maths for all of this exquisite-and-posh at the new TVR will prove unsustainable.

It's an attribute that always confounds me: While Britain is an extraordinary and unequaled fount of creativity, there's an intrinsic preference for the marmalade that has a royal warrant; the shuttle train from Paddington to Heathrow (a journey of 15 minutes) has a first class carriage.




ChilliWhizz

11,990 posts

160 months

Sunday 13th August 2017
quotequote all
I've said this before (and been cudgeled smile ) but I am convinced that LE's days involved with Aston will have had influence on new TVR... I'm a very lucky chap, I have an Aston and a TVR, and they serve two quite different purposes (for me). However I would say, based on experience of owning both, that if new TVR has all the attributes of old TVR (no, not those attributes smile ), and the best of Aston, then it will be mighty indeed, and a joy to own and drive...

I also believe it's achievable at the 'price point' (hate that poxy expression).
I also shop at Waitrose and buy a first class ticket if I have to travel by train biggrin

unsprung

5,467 posts

123 months

Sunday 13th August 2017
quotequote all
ChilliWhizz said:
...and buy a first class ticket if I have to travel by train biggrin
First class is essential on any proper railroad. What is curious, however, is the requirement for first class on an airport shuttle that travels for a mere 15 minutes.

suffolk009

5,344 posts

164 months

Sunday 13th August 2017
quotequote all
PunterCam said:
... tacky blip on startup nonsense.
My wife's boxster does that. It's just embarassing, and very naff.

bullittmcqueen

1,256 posts

90 months

Sunday 13th August 2017
quotequote all
Max_Torque said:
The new TVR is being type approved under the UK low volume limited type approval scheme, and hence does not conform to full EU homologation rules, and as such it does not need to have things like DSC or meet certain crash standards etc.
...
Do you have any further information on the UK Low volume limited type approval scheme admission or is that a guess ? Because in the FAQ close to placing the deposit it says:

...
Will the launch car meet legislation in my country?
The first car will initially be manufactured to EC SSTA (EU Small Series Type Approval) specifications and as such will be available in all EU countries and be available in right or left-hand drive versions.
...

That was my understanding when i placed the deposit and also during the reveal, although i didn't ask for EC SSTA specifically, only about exporting to the continent.

Sorry for asking so insistently, but this is really important to me as, frankly, a non-EC SSTA approval would probably kill it for me and that would not be a good thing.

edit:
The FAQ also says : In due course we will manufacture to further international standards. However, the launch model will need to be purchased in the EU and you will need to arrange for it to be individually exported and undertake whatever local type approvals are required to register the car locally yourself.

Exporting it and registering it is something i am fully prepared to do. With an EC-SSTA it is a question of when, not if, as it would be with a local scheme, especially given Brexit. Also from a business point of view it would be very unsmart to not produce it to EC-SSTA, imho.


Edited by bullittmcqueen on Sunday 13th August 17:36

anonymous-user

53 months

Sunday 13th August 2017
quotequote all
bullittmcqueen said:
Max_Torque said:
The new TVR is being type approved under the UK low volume limited type approval scheme, and hence does not conform to full EU homologation rules, and as such it does not need to have things like DSC or meet certain crash standards etc.
...
Do you have any further information on the UK Low volume limited type approval scheme admission or is that a guess ? Because in the FAQ close to placing the deposit it says:

...
Will the launch car meet legislation in my country?
The first car will initially be manufactured to EC SSTA (EU Small Series Type Approval) specifications and as such will be available in all EU countries and be available in right or left-hand drive versions.
...

That was my understanding when i placed the deposit and also during the reveal, although i didn't ask for EC SSTA specifically, only about exporting to the continent.

Sorry for asking so insistently, but this is really important to me as, frankly, a non-EC SSTA approval would probably kill it for me and that would not be a good thing.
sorry yes, i should have been more specific. The UKs small series type approval is the same as EU small series approval! If it meets the UK std, then it's saleable in the EU ;-)

(the small series approval grants the manufacturer the right to not comply with various bits of legislation (like mandatory DSC) to which high volume stuff must adhere. Of course, with Brexit, who knows what might happen though.... lol

bullittmcqueen

1,256 posts

90 months

Sunday 13th August 2017
quotequote all
Max_Torque said:
bullittmcqueen said:
Max_Torque said:
The new TVR is being type approved under the UK low volume limited type approval scheme, and hence does not conform to full EU homologation rules, and as such it does not need to have things like DSC or meet certain crash standards etc.
...
Do you have any further information on the UK Low volume limited type approval scheme admission or is that a guess ? Because in the FAQ close to placing the deposit it says:

...
Will the launch car meet legislation in my country?
The first car will initially be manufactured to EC SSTA (EU Small Series Type Approval) specifications and as such will be available in all EU countries and be available in right or left-hand drive versions.
...

That was my understanding when i placed the deposit and also during the reveal, although i didn't ask for EC SSTA specifically, only about exporting to the continent.

Sorry for asking so insistently, but this is really important to me as, frankly, a non-EC SSTA approval would probably kill it for me and that would not be a good thing.
sorry yes, i should have been more specific. The UKs small series type approval is the same as EU small series approval! If it meets the UK std, then it's saleable in the EU ;-)

(the small series approval grants the manufacturer the right to not comply with various bits of legislation (like mandatory DSC) to which high volume stuff must adhere. Of course, with Brexit, who knows what might happen though.... lol
Thanks for clearing that up, your post gave me an uneasy 15 minutes ( in addition to the collapse i closely avoided after just returning from taking my 12 year old son to the local sportsground to run 400m (never done in my entire life) after watching the London-wm yesterday. He timed me. His only comment was that i "looked like Phil Taylor" ) whistle

Edit: Brexit shouldn't have much impact, hopefully, only from an tax/tariff-point of view. It would also be something that Lotus, Aston, Jaguar, etc. would have to deal with.


Edited by bullittmcqueen on Sunday 13th August 17:52

DonkeyApple

54,923 posts

168 months

Sunday 13th August 2017
quotequote all
Max_Torque said:
DonkeyApple said:
m3jappa said:
Im not sure why people get so caught up with traction control. Abs is a fair one but tc is not essential imo. It might be if your a fking idiot but then if your a fking idiot you shouldn't be pushing on in a powerful car.

If the car is set up well it will be predictable and balanced. I've got a tuscan and i simply respect the fact its dangerous when the roads are cold or wet. otherwise its extremely predictable, same as my old 420bhp evo9 gt, same as my old e36 track car. All very very easy to drive when set up well.

An example is a mercedes clk350 we used to have. it could be abused with tc on, no oversteer at all, almost no chance of losing it. turn off tc and it was awful, it was like a boat when it oversteered, in fact if you did get any oversteer it was verging on being out of control and was dangerous. i can only assume the chassis set up wasn't as good as the other non tc cars was.

Tbh as well I've never had a problem with no abs in my tuscan.

so id rather not have a tc system which simply masks a st chassis. Id rather have a properly sorted and well set up car which i have a feeling this is going to be!
TC is essential. It was essential back in the 90s.

Just think back to the number of people who jumped into TVRs from a lifetime of front wheel drive cars or cars with traction control and who then spun off into a hedge because they put their foot down while pulling out to overtake or put their foot down joining from a slip road.

Even Wheeler recognised the issues which is why later cars like mine have TC.

You and I along with lots of others may be used to pokey RWD cars and understand they aren't the same as an M3 loaded with aids or a Clio Cup but all the evidence points to a vast number of owners never making that leap of understanding until they dropped the clutch in third, engine braked to a roundabout, accelerated over white lines or floored it while pulling out to over take and ended up kaput.

In 2017 there are going to be even fewer people aware of how to drive pokey RWD without TC than there were in the mid 90s.

Tools to help tools, along with helping the misfortunate are vital I think.
It's much more than that.

I don't care how good a driver you are, no driver can generate the yaw authority that a dynamically controlled split braking system can. (you'd need 4 brake pedals, four matching feet, and 4 brains!).

Why does this matter? Because when the S**T hits the fan, it does so quickly, with little warning, and as a human, even if you're the best driver in the world (and you're not) true emergency inputs often lead to a loss of control. Watch that Elise video i posted a few pages ago. A guy out for a Sunday drive with his wife, not going that fast, enjoying the car and then whammo, he's in the barriers. If a car had been coming the other way, there is a good chance that "sunday drive" would have resulted in the death of this wife. Think about that for a minute. No really, think about it. Now come back and tell me you don't care about having DSC...........

Our PH driving Gods can go on about "he was a numpty" or "wouldn't have happened to me" but you know what, every day in the UK, people just like You and I loose control of our cars and crash, often causing serious injury or death.

The new TVR is mean't to be a practical, useable road car. Able to be driven on our roads, in all weathers and all times. Sure, it can be raw, exciting, fun or whatever, but DSC doesn't prevent that (it actually helps btw, because you can set the basic chassis settings to a more extreme level knowing that the DSC is there to jump in an save the occasional slip n slide!).

If anything, basic Traction Control (equivalent to lifting the throttle pedal) is the 'pointless thing' that a good driver doesn't need, rather than Stability Control which does something no driver can.
All very sensible and correct but at some point: https://youtu.be/zUoT5AxFpRs

tjlees

1,382 posts

236 months

Sunday 13th August 2017
quotequote all
DonkeyApple said:
All very sensible and correct but at some point: https://youtu.be/zUoT5AxFpRs
Drove my Atom 300 today at rockingham - no TC, DSC, ABS nor PS - plenty of sliding, speeds in excess of 130, but no-one died biggrin

(Plenty of safety laden kit did end up in the kitty litter though)