RE: New TVR - the update
Discussion
Not giving it traction control or ABS sounds stupid to me.
I get as annoyed as anyone by manufacturers using electronics to excuse a poor chassis setup but that doesn't mean I wouldn't still want them on a good chassis. My car doesn't have them and whilst I can live with the lack for what the rest of the car gives me, I don't view it as a good thing in itself!
It's not even that expensive to fit such things. They don't have to develop a system from scratch themselves, there's plenty of very good off-the-shelf setups available. Just shove one of those in with an "off" switch.
I get as annoyed as anyone by manufacturers using electronics to excuse a poor chassis setup but that doesn't mean I wouldn't still want them on a good chassis. My car doesn't have them and whilst I can live with the lack for what the rest of the car gives me, I don't view it as a good thing in itself!
It's not even that expensive to fit such things. They don't have to develop a system from scratch themselves, there's plenty of very good off-the-shelf setups available. Just shove one of those in with an "off" switch.
Edited by kambites on Monday 14th August 09:04
Yup but I believe it has been stated from the outset that this car will have TC and ABS. I'm pretty sure it will have everything that they can afford to fit in it, regardless of any sound bites from the company. Just like I'm sure once they've got the launch car away and succeeded in rekindling the brand they will be able to make subtle changes to increase saleability such as offering an auto, heated seats, parking controls etc. and move the brand image gently forward.
LordGrover said:
Tuvra said:
LordGrover said:
Pricing seems about what it was. My 1992 Griffith was c. £28,000 new.
If I compare my salary then and use the same multiplier today it works out pretty close.
Taking inflation into account that's £53k.If I compare my salary then and use the same multiplier today it works out pretty close.
I was on £17k in 2005 and nearer £100k in 2010.
Krikkit said:
Nothing wrong with a 911 as an everyday prospect, but the equipment you don't get for a 78k car is laughable!
Cruise control? Xenon lights? Rain sensing wipers? Parking sensors? Nope. A 10 grand Fiesta has all of them!
The base Fiesta is £12,715Cruise control? Xenon lights? Rain sensing wipers? Parking sensors? Nope. A 10 grand Fiesta has all of them!
Xenon isn't an option on any Fiesta
To get one with just cruise and rain sensing wipers is the Titanium for £16,145 and then it's another £300 to add the City pack which is the cheapest way to add parking sensors, so £16,445.
DonkeyApple said:
Max_Torque said:
DonkeyApple said:
m3jappa said:
Im not sure why people get so caught up with traction control. Abs is a fair one but tc is not essential imo. It might be if your a f
king idiot but then if your a fking idiot you shouldn't be pushing on in a powerful car.
If the car is set up well it will be predictable and balanced. I've got a tuscan and i simply respect the fact its dangerous when the roads are cold or wet. otherwise its extremely predictable, same as my old 420bhp evo9 gt, same as my old e36 track car. All very very easy to drive when set up well.
An example is a mercedes clk350 we used to have. it could be abused with tc on, no oversteer at all, almost no chance of losing it. turn off tc and it was awful, it was like a boat when it oversteered, in fact if you did get any oversteer it was verging on being out of control and was dangerous. i can only assume the chassis set up wasn't as good as the other non tc cars was.
Tbh as well I've never had a problem with no abs in my tuscan.
so id rather not have a tc system which simply masks a st chassis. Id rather have a properly sorted and well set up car which i have a feeling this is going to be!
TC is essential. It was essential back in the 90s. king idiot but then if your a fking idiot you shouldn't be pushing on in a powerful car. If the car is set up well it will be predictable and balanced. I've got a tuscan and i simply respect the fact its dangerous when the roads are cold or wet. otherwise its extremely predictable, same as my old 420bhp evo9 gt, same as my old e36 track car. All very very easy to drive when set up well.
An example is a mercedes clk350 we used to have. it could be abused with tc on, no oversteer at all, almost no chance of losing it. turn off tc and it was awful, it was like a boat when it oversteered, in fact if you did get any oversteer it was verging on being out of control and was dangerous. i can only assume the chassis set up wasn't as good as the other non tc cars was.
Tbh as well I've never had a problem with no abs in my tuscan.
so id rather not have a tc system which simply masks a s
t chassis. Id rather have a properly sorted and well set up car which i have a feeling this is going to be!Just think back to the number of people who jumped into TVRs from a lifetime of front wheel drive cars or cars with traction control and who then spun off into a hedge because they put their foot down while pulling out to overtake or put their foot down joining from a slip road.
Even Wheeler recognised the issues which is why later cars like mine have TC.
You and I along with lots of others may be used to pokey RWD cars and understand they aren't the same as an M3 loaded with aids or a Clio Cup but all the evidence points to a vast number of owners never making that leap of understanding until they dropped the clutch in third, engine braked to a roundabout, accelerated over white lines or floored it while pulling out to over take and ended up kaput.
In 2017 there are going to be even fewer people aware of how to drive pokey RWD without TC than there were in the mid 90s.
Tools to help tools, along with helping the misfortunate are vital I think.
I don't care how good a driver you are, no driver can generate the yaw authority that a dynamically controlled split braking system can. (you'd need 4 brake pedals, four matching feet, and 4 brains!).
Why does this matter? Because when the S**T hits the fan, it does so quickly, with little warning, and as a human, even if you're the best driver in the world (and you're not) true emergency inputs often lead to a loss of control. Watch that Elise video i posted a few pages ago. A guy out for a Sunday drive with his wife, not going that fast, enjoying the car and then whammo, he's in the barriers. If a car had been coming the other way, there is a good chance that "sunday drive" would have resulted in the death of this wife. Think about that for a minute. No really, think about it. Now come back and tell me you don't care about having DSC...........
Our PH driving Gods can go on about "he was a numpty" or "wouldn't have happened to me" but you know what, every day in the UK, people just like You and I loose control of our cars and crash, often causing serious injury or death.
The new TVR is mean't to be a practical, useable road car. Able to be driven on our roads, in all weathers and all times. Sure, it can be raw, exciting, fun or whatever, but DSC doesn't prevent that (it actually helps btw, because you can set the basic chassis settings to a more extreme level knowing that the DSC is there to jump in an save the occasional slip n slide!).
If anything, basic Traction Control (equivalent to lifting the throttle pedal) is the 'pointless thing' that a good driver doesn't need, rather than Stability Control which does something no driver can.
I don't want traction control or other electronic "driver assists" in my sports car and I don't want someone telling me I have to have it.
My Aston has AC, PAS, ABS, DSC, TC, EBD, and EBA. Oh, and PTC 
My TVR has electric windows
Ask me which one I fling round corners with gay abandon be it wet or dry
Note: the TVR is not flung round corners on the Queens highway (well not very often), and when I say gay abandon I don't actually mean I become gay whilst abandoning. No really, I don't... I can't be, or briefly become, gay.. I drive a TVR FFS
My TVR has electric windows
Ask me which one I fling round corners with gay abandon be it wet or dry
Note: the TVR is not flung round corners on the Queens highway (well not very often), and when I say gay abandon I don't actually mean I become gay whilst abandoning. No really, I don't... I can't be, or briefly become, gay.. I drive a TVR FFS
ChilliWhizz said:
My Aston has AC, PAS, ABS, DSC, TC, EBD, and EBA. Oh, and PTC
My TVR has electric windows
Ask me which one I fling round corners with gay abandon be it wet or dry
Note: the TVR is not flung round corners on the Queens highway (well not very often), and when I say gay abandon I don't actually mean I become gay whilst abandoning. No really, I don't... I can't be, or briefly become, gay.. I drive a TVR FFS
Electric windows!? Heretic!My TVR has electric windows
Ask me which one I fling round corners with gay abandon be it wet or dry
Note: the TVR is not flung round corners on the Queens highway (well not very often), and when I say gay abandon I don't actually mean I become gay whilst abandoning. No really, I don't... I can't be, or briefly become, gay.. I drive a TVR FFS
SidewaysSi said:
Proof is when people drive them and actually use them.
I don't expect them to have the road and track ability of a GT Porsche. And they need to nail reliability this time or it will be a bit of a farce.
Decent car no doubt but I think we need more than speed and an engine note. Let's see.
How exactly do you know they won't have the road and track ability of a GT porsche. Have you driven a prototype?I don't expect them to have the road and track ability of a GT Porsche. And they need to nail reliability this time or it will be a bit of a farce.
Decent car no doubt but I think we need more than speed and an engine note. Let's see.
PeterGadsby said:
SidewaysSi said:
Proof is when people drive them and actually use them.
I don't expect them to have the road and track ability of a GT Porsche. And they need to nail reliability this time or it will be a bit of a farce.
Decent car no doubt but I think we need more than speed and an engine note. Let's see.
How exactly do you know they won't have the road and track ability of a GT porsche. Have you driven a prototype?I don't expect them to have the road and track ability of a GT Porsche. And they need to nail reliability this time or it will be a bit of a farce.
Decent car no doubt but I think we need more than speed and an engine note. Let's see.
SidewaysSi said:
PeterGadsby said:
SidewaysSi said:
Proof is when people drive them and actually use them.
I don't expect them to have the road and track ability of a GT Porsche. And they need to nail reliability this time or it will be a bit of a farce.
Decent car no doubt but I think we need more than speed and an engine note. Let's see.
How exactly do you know they won't have the road and track ability of a GT porsche. Have you driven a prototype?I don't expect them to have the road and track ability of a GT Porsche. And they need to nail reliability this time or it will be a bit of a farce.
Decent car no doubt but I think we need more than speed and an engine note. Let's see.
PeterGadsby said:
SidewaysSi said:
PeterGadsby said:
SidewaysSi said:
Proof is when people drive them and actually use them.
I don't expect them to have the road and track ability of a GT Porsche. And they need to nail reliability this time or it will be a bit of a farce.
Decent car no doubt but I think we need more than speed and an engine note. Let's see.
How exactly do you know they won't have the road and track ability of a GT porsche. Have you driven a prototype?I don't expect them to have the road and track ability of a GT Porsche. And they need to nail reliability this time or it will be a bit of a farce.
Decent car no doubt but I think we need more than speed and an engine note. Let's see.
Given budgets, resources etc., I would be extremely surprised if TVR can do that. Lotus do come pretty close in that regard though.
But that is what makes the 911 so ideal if you can only have one car due to parking or wealth restrictions. But it's also what makes it ubiquitous and boring. It's just the Golf of the sports/super car world.
I do suspect that the type of individual who would find the new TVR appealing is quite likely to find a 911 unappealing. This for all its greatness it doesn't tick the right boxes.
It'll be a big blow if the TVR doesn't get decent reviews but I genuinely doubt whether many buyers will be weighing it up against the shopping and general runabout capabilities of a 911 or think that an average driver could get it to lap quicker than a 911 given its huge heritage, development spend and impressive electronics.
For me I've never seen them as two brands that really overlap anywhere significant.
I do suspect that the type of individual who would find the new TVR appealing is quite likely to find a 911 unappealing. This for all its greatness it doesn't tick the right boxes.
It'll be a big blow if the TVR doesn't get decent reviews but I genuinely doubt whether many buyers will be weighing it up against the shopping and general runabout capabilities of a 911 or think that an average driver could get it to lap quicker than a 911 given its huge heritage, development spend and impressive electronics.
For me I've never seen them as two brands that really overlap anywhere significant.
Max_Torque said:
I don't care how good a driver you are, no driver can generate the yaw authority that a dynamically controlled split braking system can. (you'd need 4 brake pedals, four matching feet, and 4 brains!).
Why does this matter? Because when the S**T hits the fan, it does so quickly, with little warning, and as a human, even if you're the best driver in the world (and you're not) true emergency inputs often lead to a loss of control. Watch that Elise video i posted a few pages ago. A guy out for a Sunday drive with his wife, not going that fast, enjoying the car and then whammo, he's in the barriers. If a car had been coming the other way, there is a good chance that "sunday drive" would have resulted in the death of this wife. Think about that for a minute. No really, think about it. Now come back and tell me you don't care about having DSC...........
Our PH driving Gods can go on about "he was a numpty" or "wouldn't have happened to me" but you know what, every day in the UK, people just like You and I loose control of our cars and crash, often causing serious injury or death.
The new TVR is mean't to be a practical, useable road car. Able to be driven on our roads, in all weathers and all times. Sure, it can be raw, exciting, fun or whatever, but DSC doesn't prevent that (it actually helps btw, because you can set the basic chassis settings to a more extreme level knowing that the DSC is there to jump in an save the occasional slip n slide!).
If anything, basic Traction Control (equivalent to lifting the throttle pedal) is the 'pointless thing' that a good driver doesn't need, rather than Stability Control which does something no driver can.
I agree that a car with all the electronics generally is safer - but I don't care, nor want that.Why does this matter? Because when the S**T hits the fan, it does so quickly, with little warning, and as a human, even if you're the best driver in the world (and you're not) true emergency inputs often lead to a loss of control. Watch that Elise video i posted a few pages ago. A guy out for a Sunday drive with his wife, not going that fast, enjoying the car and then whammo, he's in the barriers. If a car had been coming the other way, there is a good chance that "sunday drive" would have resulted in the death of this wife. Think about that for a minute. No really, think about it. Now come back and tell me you don't care about having DSC...........
Our PH driving Gods can go on about "he was a numpty" or "wouldn't have happened to me" but you know what, every day in the UK, people just like You and I loose control of our cars and crash, often causing serious injury or death.
The new TVR is mean't to be a practical, useable road car. Able to be driven on our roads, in all weathers and all times. Sure, it can be raw, exciting, fun or whatever, but DSC doesn't prevent that (it actually helps btw, because you can set the basic chassis settings to a more extreme level knowing that the DSC is there to jump in an save the occasional slip n slide!).
If anything, basic Traction Control (equivalent to lifting the throttle pedal) is the 'pointless thing' that a good driver doesn't need, rather than Stability Control which does something no driver can.
If we all wanted that, then there wouldn't be such a thriving Classic Car market. It must infuriate new car designers that people want and will pay more for, older "inferior" cars.
My Health and Safety policy is to stick to cars rather than motor bikes - thus far, 30 years of driving mostly modified, high powered RWD cars, without any electronics, I've had no problem.
Equally I have no problem with them fitting all manner of electronics as long as I can turn them off - permanently - pissing about holding a button for ten seconds every time I get in, is not acceptable.
V8RX7 said:
Equally I have no problem with them fitting all manner of electronics as long as I can turn them off - permanently - pissing about holding a button for ten seconds every time I get in, is not acceptable.
This. Electric safety features are a god send. Someone who maybe isn't such a skilled driver would be hopeless say 20 years ago if they spun, crashed, broke too hard etc etc. The fact that new 'Appliance cars' have electrics that will stop you spinning unless you're Tiff Needell, stop you locking, save you to an extent in car crashes is something no one can deny is amazing. However when it comes to sports cars, there are drivers who may appreciate all the features in normal driving conditions, but want them off when a B-Road gets involved. Take the E46 M3 as a good example of that. It's interesting to see the comparisons to Porsche, Lotus etc but the one I haven't seen is probably closer in the marketplace in many respects - don't laugh - its the Morgan Aero 8 or even the Plus 8:
Very similar price point
Hand made in Britain
Heritage going back decades
Crate engines
Low volume manufacture
Niche product purchased by enthusiasts
Lightweight
Modern composite chassis materials
Loud as thunder
Rarely seen on the road
Rapid acceleration
Minimum driver assistance
Exported to survive
A unique driving experience etc
The list could be longer but I've given up now - the point however is that Morgan have found their own bit of space in a world full of Porsche 911's and are making a good go of it, so hopefully TVR can as well - I really hope they do for the sake of Britishness...
Very similar price point
Hand made in Britain
Heritage going back decades
Crate engines
Low volume manufacture
Niche product purchased by enthusiasts
Lightweight
Modern composite chassis materials
Loud as thunder
Rarely seen on the road
Rapid acceleration
Minimum driver assistance
Exported to survive
A unique driving experience etc
The list could be longer but I've given up now - the point however is that Morgan have found their own bit of space in a world full of Porsche 911's and are making a good go of it, so hopefully TVR can as well - I really hope they do for the sake of Britishness...
Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff