Have we got it all wrong? Are cars too fast now?

[RobM77]

DoubleD said:

RobM77 said:

I think that sums it up: the M4 is seen as the top of the range 4 series, rather than the 'motorsport', 'performance' or 'handling' model. Following on from my post above, it'll come as no surprise that I'd buy an M4 built along the lines of the GT86, however I suspect I'm in a minority. As I said above though, thankfully, a minority of cars are built for people like us. If you want a 250bhp M3, then you can just buy a 250bhp BMW with M Sport suspension and you won't be far off; if you want to take things a stage further there are a range of suspension and diff options available aftermarket, either as add ons, or as a complete car from various well known tuners.

So why dont you get a GT86 then?

I think I went into a Toyota dealer within days of the release and got the brochure, has a sit in it etc. However:

No roof bars available
No tow bar available
Not enough interior space to carry the things I carry around regularly

If I didn't do any sports that needed the above, it'd be very high up my list. On paper the GT86 has got everything I want in a car, and I'm a big fan of Toyota (I've owned and loved two), so that's another bonus.

Edited by RobM77 on Monday 11th September 20:55

[Atomic12C]

bqf said:

I'm very late in replying to this thread, because I'm 44 and my reaction time is awful. It's 4:45 and i'm only just thinking about breakfast!

Anyway, yes, cars are too fast to extract their maximum potential on most UK roads, without A getting stopped, B getting a mouthful of hedge/tree, or C everyone thinking you're a tw8t.

So that McLaren purchase looks daft now doesn't it.

Silly reply.

The driver is in control of how much of the car's potential is 'extracted'.
A sensible driver will use what is appropriate for the road - sometimes the maximum acceleration potential can be used during overtaking.
Sometimes the maximum braking potential can be used for emergency stops.
Sometimes the maximum cornering/grip potential can be used to avoid an accident or debris on the road.

Then if one takes the car away from highway restrictions and on to a track, the McLaren 12C is an awesome car for having fun in.

[Rawwr]

Atomic12C said:

Silly reply.

The driver is in control of how much of the car's potential is 'extracted'.
A sensible driver will use what is appropriate for the road - sometimes the maximum acceleration potential can be used during overtaking.
Sometimes the maximum braking potential can be used for emergency stops.
Sometimes the maximum cornering/grip potential can be used to avoid an accident or debris on the road.

Then if one takes the car away from highway restrictions and on to a track, the McLaren 12C is an awesome car for having fun in.

I'd argue that panic reactions in supercars will, for the most part, have worse outcomes.

[Monkeylegend]

Atomic12C said:

bqf said:

I'm very late in replying to this thread, because I'm 44 and my reaction time is awful. It's 4:45 and i'm only just thinking about breakfast!

Anyway, yes, cars are too fast to extract their maximum potential on most UK roads, without A getting stopped, B getting a mouthful of hedge/tree, or C everyone thinking you're a tw8t.

So that McLaren purchase looks daft now doesn't it.

Silly reply.

The driver is in control of how much of the car's potential is 'extracted'.
A sensible driver will use what is appropriate for the road - sometimes the maximum acceleration potential can be used during overtaking.
Sometimes the maximum braking potential can be used for emergency stops.
Sometimes the maximum cornering/grip potential can be used to avoid an accident or debris on the road.

Then if one takes the car away from highway restrictions and on to a track, the McLaren 12C is an awesome car for having fun in.

But it's a bit like having a 12" dongle but only being able to use the end 3", the rest is wasted.

[Atomic12C]

Rawwr said:

I'd argue that panic reactions in supercars will, for the most part, have worse outcomes.

For whom?

Supercar crash structures are generally much better than the average euro-box run-around, due to the higher design top speed and energies involved.

Also given that a panic reaction can take many different forms, if we are taking in to account any vehicle travelling within the confines of the highway restrictions, then a supercar is as safe or safer that a typical heavier euro-box or Range Rover sized effort that everyone seems to be using these days.

[av185]

Panic reactions in any car, fast or slow, will inevitably result in something bad happening.

Problem is with many contemporary rapid cars, the degree of interference and electronic systems via driver aids are way too ott with the sole aim of flattering bad drivers. Ferraris side slip control is a prime example. Trouble is, you can only push even a super car so far in the name of defying physics, and when it lets go things can and often do invariably end badly.

Just another example of dilution I suppose and not hard to see why the art of driving and roadcraft in general is on the decline.

[Superhoop]

Surely this is why cars like the MX-5 and GT-86 are so much fun, as they have a level of performance and grip that is exploitable on the road

[J4CKO]

av185 said:

Panic reactions in any car, fast or slow, will inevitably result in something bad happening.

Problem is with many contemporary rapid cars, the degree of interference and electronic systems via driver aids are way too ott with the sole aim of flattering bad drivers. Ferraris side slip control is a prime example. Trouble is, you can only push even a super car so far in the name of defying physics, and when it lets go things can and often do invariably end badly.

Just another example of dilution I suppose and not hard to see why the art of driving and roadcraft in general is on the decline.

I dont think ESP etc is the problem on the roads, its down to the sheer number of cars and the selfish attitude some seem to display, you arent generally triggering the ESP even when travelling fairly quickly, I think anything that avoids crashes is generally a good idea, some of the 300 plus bhp cars about nowadays would be a real handful and only really suitable for a small percentage of drivers, I dont think it is that bad an idea to save folk (including me) from themselves and let them enjoy a quick car with a bit more safety.

I think without ESP, with the amount of traffic and higher power outputs without the electronics there would be a lot more crashes, even enthusiasts who can drive get it wrong, look at all the TVR's that get binned.

Also, a lot dont get time on track or somewhere to explore the limits of their car safely. I always recount the tale of the guy driving me telling how he hates ABS and will remove the fuse as he can cadence brake, then had to brake hard for a tractor and it saved his (and my) arse

I would rather be a bit worse at roadcraft and keep my NCD if I screw up.

[bqf]

Atomic12C said:

Silly reply.

The driver is in control of how much of the car's potential is 'extracted'.
A sensible driver will use what is appropriate for the road - sometimes the maximum acceleration potential can be used during overtaking.
Sometimes the maximum braking potential can be used for emergency stops.
Sometimes the maximum cornering/grip potential can be used to avoid an accident or debris on the road.

Then if one takes the car away from highway restrictions and on to a track, the McLaren 12C is an awesome car for having fun in.

The question was, are cars too fast for UK roads....if you think the answer is anything but yes, you're simply wrong. We weren't talking about tracks though were we? Roads - the reply was about roads.

[RobM77]

bqf said:

Atomic12C said:

Silly reply.

The driver is in control of how much of the car's potential is 'extracted'.
A sensible driver will use what is appropriate for the road - sometimes the maximum acceleration potential can be used during overtaking.
Sometimes the maximum braking potential can be used for emergency stops.
Sometimes the maximum cornering/grip potential can be used to avoid an accident or debris on the road.

Then if one takes the car away from highway restrictions and on to a track, the McLaren 12C is an awesome car for having fun in.

The question was, are cars too fast for UK roads....if you think the answer is anything but yes, you're simply wrong. We weren't talking about tracks though were we? Roads - the reply was about roads.

This is even more relevant when you consider how much more fun a dedicated track car is than a McLaren 12C around a race track, and how in practical terms a Boxster compares to a McLaren for road driving. Of course I'd rather have a 12C than a Boxster (!), but given a limited budget it's possible to own two cars that excel in each environment. This is precisely why I split my car budget of around £30k to two cars: a slow, low grip and good handling daily driver for the roads (as good as can be considering practical considerations; sadly a GT86 or MX5 isn't open to me) and a dedicated track car, which is then free to be as specialised as I want (I own a modern slicks and wings single seater). You can also spend a huge amount less money: for example a GT86 and a race prepped Caterham would total about £50k, which is similar in cost to a single car that tries to do both and is a compromise at both. I do love supercars and super saloons etc, but they're very much a 'money no object' purchase in my view, rather than a dream that I want to save up for. That wasn't my view when I was 20-25 years old, but after driving a variety of cars it's very much my view now.

[limpsfield]

I think this is always an interesting subject. 20 odd years ago I had a sapphire cosworth with 220bhp (?) which was like a rocket ship. Admittedly, lighter than a modern car.

Now have a 12 year old Boxster S and a new BMW m240 - the boxster is more fun, unsurprisingly.

I would love to have a McLaren one day but would tend to agree with the OP.

The most fun car I have owned was a Lotus Elise 111r with 180 Bhp I think. Absolutely perfect for UK A and B roads, should never have sold it.

[DoubleD]

Ha ha yeah right

[SidewaysSi]

I find modern cars in the main to be too fast, too able and too dull. Mute steering, too much electonics and too high limits to enjoy in the UK for much of the time. It was largely why I sold my GT4 - great car and i admired it but not much fun for the driving I was doing.

However I still run my modified Elise and Caterham because they are so much more interactive and enjoyable than the Cayman ever was. In fact, with all three keys available to me and a few hours spare on a weekend, the Porsche always got left at home.

My daily driver is a 20 year old BMW E36 328i which has a few tweaks, including a full suspension refresh and running on relatively tiny wheels. More than fast enough, fun, slideable and great fun. I don't see how a new 340 or even M4 would better it for smiles on road. And all for a total outlay comfortably less than £10k.

[CABC]

Surreal experience today. Audi TT flew past at approx 90+ in heavy rain. I guess he he hit a deep patch of water and then dramatically fish-tailed changing direction violently around 10 times. After the 4/5th swing I was sure he'd wipe out, but no, the car eventually sorted it out. I guess the car would have worked things out earlier but the driver was probably flailing at the wheel. Clearly the ESC was very impressive, but the guy was toast without it. Being an Audi, stereo types abound. I don't think he understood the conditions at all. I was in a GT 86 and felt everything. Sorry GG haters, but I know which car I'd rather be in.

[CABC]

[redacted]

[Kawasicki]

I drive an old e46 as well, it's a 325ti. It is waaaay too fast and grippy to exploit on UK roads.

[jjr1]

[redacted]

[Jaroon]

XFR owner with characterful exhaust. 6 mile commute, redline in 1st, 2nd, 3rd every journey, late odd work shifts and dangerously brief warm up. Travel under 2 bridges. Every journey a joy, accelerative on the dual carriage way, wonderfully sonorous under bridges, thought provoking in the damp, generally not license losing territory but my 26 year clean record does come under an acceptable threat level imo. 650/700bhp and I may call it quits, oh and it must sound right. Mums nets ---->way,

[Mr Tidy]

Kawasicki said:

I drive an old e46 as well, it's a 325ti. It is waaaay too fast and grippy to exploit on UK roads.

Strangely my 325ti doesn't seem to suffer like that!

But now and again my z4 Coupe does - but as they say if you aren't living on the edge you're taking up too much room.

[av185]

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