RE: Audi R8 RWS - Frankfurt 2017
Discussion
s'where opinions will differ, anything mechanical that has the connection replaced with electronics and algorithms is worse imo.
electro app assisted blue tooth digital stat killers can and do provide a fun experience.
But they don't engage in the same way, by definition.
When adolescent kids can clamber aboard a hyper car and press the go button all the way, on damp twisty roads and talk to a camera at the same time, you KNOW something is being lost....
electro app assisted blue tooth digital stat killers can and do provide a fun experience.
But they don't engage in the same way, by definition.
When adolescent kids can clamber aboard a hyper car and press the go button all the way, on damp twisty roads and talk to a camera at the same time, you KNOW something is being lost....
anonymous said:
[redacted]
I too care about driving.But I find a well sorted auto (zf 8 speed, all the dsg VAG boxes for example) to be just as good as an auto and in some cases better.
I have a manual in both of my cars but I would happily have an auto especially if it suited the power train.
Everyone goes on about how a manual is miles more involving etc, but is it really? Moving your arm and your foot? Most manual cars don't have anything special about them. Some new DSGs even have ways to clutch kick, can change down etc and can do so far more reliably and kindly to the car than a buffoon with a hard-on for the latest Youtube reviewer to say "manuals are teh best eva!!!"
In many cases especially on track I actually prefer driving autos as you can focus much more on your throttle and brakes.
Not to mention that the amount of people who don't even know basic techniques like heel and toe and double de-clutching mean that manuals are lost on most.
xjay1337 said:
Everyone goes on about how a manual is miles more involving etc, but is it really? Moving your arm and your foot?
Come on now, you know it is, everyone knows it is, its not simply moving an arm and a foot....as you go on to point out, heel'n'toe, rev matching, double'd'clutching there is by definition ALOT more to think about....and therefore be engaged with/by.That said I don't think anyone is saying every manual box is better then every auto box, let alone semi-auto, PDK/DCT.
The engagement is more....the skill required to maximise and get the most out of it is more.
What car and manual box you then go to be engaged by is a different thing...
equally a well sorted auto is fun
What car and auto you then go on to have fun with is a different thing.
If you're pre-disposed to preferring a manual.... that's that really.
Its like that old Kit-e-Kat advert - "8 out of 10 owners (who expressed a preference) said their cats preferred it...."......
janesmith1950 said:
anonymous said:
[redacted]
To be fair, when you push/pull the gearlever back and forth in a modern auto, it's just an electronic transaction. I wouldn't say I 'pushed a button' to change gear with it, for the simple reason it's not a 'button' I'm pushing.Ares said:
janesmith1950 said:
anonymous said:
[redacted]
To be fair, when you push/pull the gearlever back and forth in a modern auto, it's just an electronic transaction. I wouldn't say I 'pushed a button' to change gear with it, for the simple reason it's not a 'button' I'm pushing.anyway...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EfDHULZZjpQ
Ares said:
janesmith1950 said:
anonymous said:
[redacted]
To be fair, when you push/pull the gearlever back and forth in a modern auto, it's just an electronic transaction. I wouldn't say I 'pushed a button' to change gear with it, for the simple reason it's not a 'button' I'm pushing.Quickmoose said:
Ares said:
janesmith1950 said:
anonymous said:
[redacted]
To be fair, when you push/pull the gearlever back and forth in a modern auto, it's just an electronic transaction. I wouldn't say I 'pushed a button' to change gear with it, for the simple reason it's not a 'button' I'm pushing.anyway...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EfDHULZZjpQ
MiggyA said:
Ares said:
janesmith1950 said:
anonymous said:
[redacted]
To be fair, when you push/pull the gearlever back and forth in a modern auto, it's just an electronic transaction. I wouldn't say I 'pushed a button' to change gear with it, for the simple reason it's not a 'button' I'm pushing.People can bemoan the loss of mechanical linkage, but there are plenty of upsides to it, many of which hit the areas of standard criticism car fans levy towards new cars.
Quickmoose said:
yep plenty of upsides.
of which an 'increase' in engagement is not one.
Unless you enjoy taking your eyes off the road to tap, swipe and slide your way through a myriad of entertainment and barely discernible vehicle set up choices...
...not one for you. Or the others stuck in a halcyon era.of which an 'increase' in engagement is not one.
Unless you enjoy taking your eyes off the road to tap, swipe and slide your way through a myriad of entertainment and barely discernible vehicle set up choices...
Ares said:
...not one for you. Or the others stuck in a halcyon era.
It has nothing to do with being 'stuck in a halcyon era', bit stupid on your part to assume as much.Plenty of current/modern cars still extolling the virtues of actually driving a car as opposed to being an occupant making decisions now and again.
The point is the level of engagement.
and on that point.... don't. I'm right
Quickmoose said:
Ares said:
...not one for you. Or the others stuck in a halcyon era.
It has nothing to do with being 'stuck in a halcyon era', bit stupid on your part to assume as much.Plenty of current/modern cars still extolling the virtues of actually driving a car as opposed to being an occupant making decisions now and again.
The point is the level of engagement.
and on that point.... don't. I'm right
I certainly get as much driver engagement (maybe more) and far more fun from driving my current car with 'buttons' controlling everything, than I did from 'buttons controlling nothing' cars of yesteryear. It also gives a far broader range of options for when I am driving.
Luddites assume that the removal of mechanical linkages is automatically retarding driver fun and engagement.
And you ARE right, but so am I. Everyone looks for different things in a car and engagement means different things. I get as much fun and engagement from choosing the right gear via a beautiful column mounted aluminium paddle as I do pressing a clutch pedal & stirring a stick.
oh dear that someone actually feels/thinks/believes that pressing a button/pulling a lever, pretty much when you like - via simply extending finger tips from the wheel, keeping your foot 'in'....
is somehow more engaging than all the different physical and mental aspects of timing, leg/foot, arm/hand, rev matchy whatever stuff.
I know PDK can be fun, it's certainly quicker, and I'm not suggesting manual is better every single time, and I'm certainly not starting a campaign to convince everyone they should all go back to driving a manual or that Ares' preferences are wrong....but unless you find the act of reaching out your finger tip and clicking a paddle mentally and physically challenging it simply isn't more 'enagaging'..by definition it uses less limbs !
is somehow more engaging than all the different physical and mental aspects of timing, leg/foot, arm/hand, rev matchy whatever stuff.
I know PDK can be fun, it's certainly quicker, and I'm not suggesting manual is better every single time, and I'm certainly not starting a campaign to convince everyone they should all go back to driving a manual or that Ares' preferences are wrong....but unless you find the act of reaching out your finger tip and clicking a paddle mentally and physically challenging it simply isn't more 'enagaging'..by definition it uses less limbs !
Quickmoose said:
oh dear that someone actually feels/thinks/believes that pressing a button/pulling a lever, pretty much when you like - via simply extending finger tips from the wheel, keeping your foot 'in'....
is somehow more engaging than all the different physical and mental aspects of timing, leg/foot, arm/hand, rev matchy whatever stuff.
I know PDK can be fun, it's certainly quicker, and I'm not suggesting manual is better every single time, and I'm certainly not starting a campaign to convince everyone they should all go back to driving a manual or that Ares' preferences are wrong....but unless you find the act of reaching out your finger tip and clicking a paddle mentally and physically challenging it simply isn't more 'enagaging'..by definition it uses less limbs !
You're not saying I'm wrong, but you are. You should be a politician.is somehow more engaging than all the different physical and mental aspects of timing, leg/foot, arm/hand, rev matchy whatever stuff.
I know PDK can be fun, it's certainly quicker, and I'm not suggesting manual is better every single time, and I'm certainly not starting a campaign to convince everyone they should all go back to driving a manual or that Ares' preferences are wrong....but unless you find the act of reaching out your finger tip and clicking a paddle mentally and physically challenging it simply isn't more 'enagaging'..by definition it uses less limbs !
And if engagement for you is solely about using more limbs, then you are right. But it isn't for me.
Anyway, I'm about to use my limbs far more and go out on my bike. I guess that would be infinitely more engaging for you than any car
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