Please Drive Fast Through The Village

[tannhauser]

sandman77 said:

Blakewater said:

When no speed limit signs are around, people use their own judgment. Speed monitoring has shown that judgment to be sound. When signs are put up apparently saying higher speeds are safe, that encourages people to drive faster than they have been.

Do you honestly think that reducing the speed limit on a NSL road to 30mph encourages people to speed up? Just think about it for 2 seconds before you answer.

The answer is: yes it very well could do - depending on existing averages. I have inside knowledge!

[Loyly]

They cockwombles round my way have been campaigning to have the speed in our village lowered for years. At first, they got an advisory 20mph that only the most slow-witted of drivers observed, other than through the village centre where 20mph or less is appropriate. Soon, they're moving to a mandatory 20mph limit.

What makes me laugh is, the council won't impose any traffic calming measures as the village is a 'major route' through the area. They do a speed measurement about once a year using the fixed strip sensors on the road and the cockwombles report in the village newsletter, with some outrage, that the speeds are up year on year. Last year, the average for the sensor leaving the village on the northbound route, shortly before the limit goes from 30 to 60, was over 40mph.

[NickCQ]

WJNB said:

wonderfully pisses the dam commuters

Those beavers had it coming!

[Willy Nilly]

I was brought up in Shropshire, but don't know Cound that well.

I now live on the main drag through a village in Essexshire and give zero fks about how fast people drive past my house. Zero, zilch, nothing. Go as fast as you like.

Anyone that lives on a arterial route and complains about traffic should be dragged from their house and beaten.

Don't like football traffic? Don't live near a football ground.
Don't like school traffic? Don't live near a school.
Don't like aircraft noise? Don't live near an airport. Etc, etc.

The days of kids playing football in the streets are over, roads are just too busy now. They are too busy with people like you and I going to work and generally about their business. People have to work and no long have jobs for life so stay in one house and commute.

[saaby93]

sandman77 said:

Blakewater said:

When no speed limit signs are around, people use their own judgment. Speed monitoring has shown that judgment to be sound. When signs are put up apparently saying higher speeds are safe, that encourages people to drive faster than they have been.

Do you honestly think that reducing the speed limit on a NSL road to 30mph encourages people to speed up? Just think about it for 2 seconds before you answer.

The second person needs to think about it for a bit
Many villages are NSL and dont have speeding traffic issues and the OP demonstrated some where speeds were mid 20s just because that feels right fro the road.
Start poking up 30 signs though and you'll get people driving to the number on the stick ( or a few mph above - doesn't everyone)
Was It Warwickshire that demonstrated the effect in some before and after stats?

[Meridius]

Me, trying to find OPs point...

[Dr Jekyll]

There was the Oxfordshire village that had a well observed 40 limit for years and no accidents but we reduced to 30 because Oxfordshire. Average speeds rose into the 40s, according to a copper I spoke to motorists felt they may as well be hanged for a sheep as a lamb. Putting the limit back to 40 brought the speeds down again though.

[saaby93]

Blakewater said:

The reasoning behind the limit reduction is contradictory, on the one hand it won't slow traffic down but on the other there will be all the safety and environmental benefits of lower traffic speeds.

It's not reasoning
But thats hasnt stopped it happening elsewhere too

[donkmeister]

SantaBarbara said:

Yes it would be the FIRST time that an H+S action had such an effect

You sound very sure of that

Let me give you an example that counters your view...
In a multistorey car park belonging to a company i deal with there is a one way system in place. A small number of users of this car park would come out of a space and drive the wrong way to get to a down-ramp rather than following the whole system. A pedestrian who had blindly assumed nothing would be coming from his left *nearly* got hit when he ran out of a stairwell across the errant driver's path.
So, H+S team decided to make thecar park safer they would find a way to enforce the one-way. They chose those spring-loaded hooks that knacker tyres if you drive the wrong way.
Now, because of the necessity to hit those hooks square-on to avoid damage, most cars now drive on the wrong side of the ramp.
Near-misses have gone through the roof and actual collisions have occurred.
I'm sure you will blame the drivers by saying they should accept the damage or drive more slowly down the wrong side but that's not an argument... The safety of a system must account for normal, reasonable human elements, otherwise we wouldn't have shuttered plug sockets, and the Issigonis approach to car safety would apply ("If anyone crashes my cars it's their own stupid fault!")
In the case of my car park example, the H+S team did not account for how drivers would deal with the tyre damage strips.
The design is at fault, due to the well-meaning but ill-considered H+S additions.

[saaby93]

donkmeister said:

SantaBarbara said:

Yes it would be the FIRST time that an H+S action had such an effect

You sound very sure of that

Let me give you an example that counters your view...
In a multistorey car park belonging to a company i deal with there is a one way system in place. A small number of users of this car park would come out of a space and drive the wrong way to get to a down-ramp rather than following the whole system. A pedestrian who had blindly assumed nothing would be coming from his left *nearly* got hit when he ran out of a stairwell across the errant driver's path.
So, H+S team decided to make thecar park safer they would find a way to enforce the one-way. They chose those spring-loaded hooks that knacker tyres if you drive the wrong way.
Now, because of the necessity to hit those hooks square-on to avoid damage, most cars now drive on the wrong side of the ramp.
Near-misses have gone through the roof and actual collisions have occurred.
I'm sure you will blame the drivers by saying they should accept the damage or drive more slowly down the wrong side but that's not an argument... The safety of a system must account for normal, reasonable human elements, otherwise we wouldn't have shuttered plug sockets, and the Issigonis approach to car safety would apply ("If anyone crashes my cars it's their own stupid fault!")
In the case of my car park example, the H+S team did not account for how drivers would deal with the tyre damage strips.
The design is at fault, due to the well-meaning but ill-considered H+S additions.

It's also not H&S
H&S is about healthy and safety 'at work'. The 'at work' is often left off. It's making sure they did the work safely for themselves and for anyone else about
What they were installing was what they misguidedly thought were safety improvement measures
and patently werent.

[boyse7en]

tannhauser said:

boyse7en said:

Blakewater said:

The average speeds recorded in these villages were 24.7mph and 23.4mph. There may have been the odd very fast person in combination with very slow people, but this seems unlikely in consideration of the nature of the roads and the highest speeds recorded haven't been published.

That sounds like quite a high average speed for traffic in a built-up area. To achieve that, cars must be travelling well in excess of it for quite a portion of the time

Depends entirely on the nature of the road....

Absolutely, hence my carefully avoiding saying that it is quite a high average speed.

[s m]

Willy Nilly said:

I was brought up in Shropshire, but don't know Cound that well.

I now live on the main drag through a village in Essexshire and give zero fks about how fast people drive past my house. Zero, zilch, nothing. Go as fast as you like.

Anyone that lives on a arterial route and complains about traffic should be dragged from their house

I biked through there on Sunday - it's not on a main road ( the A458 bypasses the main village ) and I really can't see a problem with a 30 limit - it never used to have one but you'd be hard pressed to take the bend by the tennis club much quucker anyway - short straight and you're up to a T junction anyway

[Pica-Pica]

tannhauser said:

boyse7en said:

Blakewater said:

The average speeds recorded in these villages were 24.7mph and 23.4mph. There may have been the odd very fast person in combination with very slow people, but this seems unlikely in consideration of the nature of the roads and the highest speeds recorded haven't been published.

That sounds like quite a high average speed for traffic in a built-up area. To achieve that, cars must be travelling well in excess of it for quite a portion of the time

Depends entirely on the nature of the road....

Depends on how average is measured. Arithmetic mean, modal or median?

[Byff]

sandman77 said:

Do you honestly think that reducing the speed limit on a NSL road to 30mph encourages people to speed up? Just think about it for 2 seconds before you answer.

Toonshorty said:

Reminds me of a local village near me which has been 30 for as long as I've known it (17 years).

A couple of years ago, a number of residents campaigned to make the village 20mph for reasons relating to "thinking" and "children". Northumberland County Council have very few 20 zones, in fact - they are probably one of the few councils to reject the blanket 20 project most seem to be pursuing. In the end they compromised and the council set up some speed monitoring devices and recorded the average speeds with the 30 limit in place. They then installed this "advisory 20" (black circle rather than red) and monitored the speeds again.

The end result of this utterly pointless scheme was that the average speed actually increased by around 1.5mph.

[Pica-Pica]

When no speed limit signs are around, people use their own judgment. Speed monitoring has shown that judgment to be sound.
[/quote]

Evidence? I feel a statement like that's needs a reference.

[saaby93]

Pica-Pica said:

Blakewater said:

When no speed limit signs are around, people use their own judgment. Speed monitoring has shown that judgment to be sound.

Evidence? I feel a statement like that's needs a reference.

Here's a clue

Blakewater said:

The average speeds recorded in these villages were 24.7mph and 23.4mph.

How much do you need?
https://shropshire.gov.uk/committee-services/Data/...

They quoted the government guidance

shrops said:

where appropriate, a 30mph speed limit should be the norm in villages

crossed out 'where appropriate' ( you don't have to do it for the sake of it) and took norm to be 'everywhere' rather than reading further into the guidance

They also asserted

shrops said:

Accidents and casualty savings – the introduction of 30mph speed limits will reduce the likelihood and severity of an accident should it
occur.

Hope they're not making that up

Edited by saaby93 on Tuesday 12th September 16:19

[tannhauser]

Pica-Pica said:

tannhauser said:

boyse7en said:

Blakewater said:

The average speeds recorded in these villages were 24.7mph and 23.4mph. There may have been the odd very fast person in combination with very slow people, but this seems unlikely in consideration of the nature of the roads and the highest speeds recorded haven't been published.

That sounds like quite a high average speed for traffic in a built-up area. To achieve that, cars must be travelling well in excess of it for quite a portion of the time

Depends entirely on the nature of the road....

Depends on how average is measured. Arithmetic mean, modal or median?

Mean, obviously Normally mode or median is specified if that is what is being expressed.

[oyster]

Dr Jekyll said:

There was the Oxfordshire village that had a well observed 40 limit for years and no accidents but we reduced to 30 because Oxfordshire. Average speeds rose into the 40s, according to a copper I spoke to motorists felt they may as well be hanged for a sheep as a lamb. Putting the limit back to 40 brought the speeds down again though.

Is this reported anywhere? Or is it in some Oxfordshire council website somewhere?

It isn't is it?
You made it up?

[ooo000ooo]

A lot of the busier roads around Belfast city centre were changed to 20mph speed limits.
Like most city centres, when it's busy it's hard to get do 20mph, when it's quiet there's not that many people about to warrant 20mph.
It cost stupid amounts of money to impose it.
The police have stated that they won't be enforcing it so everyone is driving exactly the same as they always have.
Pointless exercise.

[saaby93]

2010 48 reductions and 5 increases reported here
http://www.citylocal.co.uk/Oxford/news-in-Oxford/s...