BMW 1-series Timing Chain snapped
Discussion
janesmith1950 said:
The fact that the issue is common supports the OPs position rather than harming it. He relies in proving the fault was present when he bought the car, the widespread occurance of it helps demonstrate that.
The OP would rely on convincing a court that the car was not of the expected quality. The fact it is a BMW, considered a premium product, that it had a full service history, that its mileage is in line with normaility and not particluarly high and that the timing chain is not normally a consumable all help.
Washing machines are expected to last for years, well beyond warranty. A premium car should also.
Saying something is 'out of warranty' is not a catch all to remove responsibility for premature failures, as many manufacturers of many products have found to their cost.
Correct, so take it to a BMW, fight your case and get a "contribution" towards a maybe £5,000-£6,000 bill at their rates, OR take to a trusted indy who'll not use smoke and mirrors on the pricing and charge you £3K?The OP would rely on convincing a court that the car was not of the expected quality. The fact it is a BMW, considered a premium product, that it had a full service history, that its mileage is in line with normaility and not particluarly high and that the timing chain is not normally a consumable all help.
Washing machines are expected to last for years, well beyond warranty. A premium car should also.
Saying something is 'out of warranty' is not a catch all to remove responsibility for premature failures, as many manufacturers of many products have found to their cost.
As i said, damned if you do, damned if you dont.
Some great points noted that help in seeing if there is a way forward with BMW despite the chances. Agree particularly with the point made by janesmith1950 ' Saying something is 'out of warranty' is not a catch all to remove responsibility for premature failures, as many manufacturers of many products have found to their cost'. At 80k miles a timing chain breaking and cost incurred is in my opinion not good enough especially in light of the quality you would expect from BMW and the fact the car has been serviced regularly. Not holding my breath with BMW but I live in hope, as Daemon states 'damned if you do, damned if you don't'. Thanks again all for such great advice over the few hours the post was put up.
Rather than speculate and tell you that you have no chance, with no real basis for doing so, here is my experience.
Bmw 520d with 155k on it, 2008 model. I noticed the chain was noisy so took it to BMW main dealer - they said 3k for a replacement. I argued that my car had been to a main dealer for service during the period that the “quality enhancement” was being applied, yet it wasn’t done. This is the first issue - it was not a recall/warranty job, by calling it an enhancement bmw do not acknowledge the fault and are not obliged to fix it.
Nevertheless, the dealer asked for proof of service (not all at main dealer) and when I couldn’t find the invoices for a couple of services, all that bmw wanted was proof of the correct oil being used - as I always supply oil to make sure the garage don’t put cheap stuff in, I could provide evidence of this.
I’m not sure how much was due to the dealer (although they suggested I had no chance so don’t think they put up too much of a fight) - bmw paid 2k of my 3k bill. (Well I’m not sure what the deal was but I only paid 1k of it).
If you have full service history and didn’t use cheap oil, it’s worth submitting a case.
Bmw 520d with 155k on it, 2008 model. I noticed the chain was noisy so took it to BMW main dealer - they said 3k for a replacement. I argued that my car had been to a main dealer for service during the period that the “quality enhancement” was being applied, yet it wasn’t done. This is the first issue - it was not a recall/warranty job, by calling it an enhancement bmw do not acknowledge the fault and are not obliged to fix it.
Nevertheless, the dealer asked for proof of service (not all at main dealer) and when I couldn’t find the invoices for a couple of services, all that bmw wanted was proof of the correct oil being used - as I always supply oil to make sure the garage don’t put cheap stuff in, I could provide evidence of this.
I’m not sure how much was due to the dealer (although they suggested I had no chance so don’t think they put up too much of a fight) - bmw paid 2k of my 3k bill. (Well I’m not sure what the deal was but I only paid 1k of it).
If you have full service history and didn’t use cheap oil, it’s worth submitting a case.
Is it an N47 engine?
If it is, the servicing BMW dealer would have been well aware of the 'quality enhancement'. However, that ended in 2015 so your car may have had an inspection at a previous service and been deemed satisfactory and not requiring any work at that time.
With a full BMW history and a known failure mode, I'm pretty confident that BMW would have made a contribution to your repair costs. However, as you've not given them the opportunity to diagnose it themselves and have now allowed an non-franchised repairer to work on it, I honestly doubt you'll get a penny from them.
Still, it's worth asking! Just make sure you have all the facts first - starting with which engine you have.
If it is, the servicing BMW dealer would have been well aware of the 'quality enhancement'. However, that ended in 2015 so your car may have had an inspection at a previous service and been deemed satisfactory and not requiring any work at that time.
With a full BMW history and a known failure mode, I'm pretty confident that BMW would have made a contribution to your repair costs. However, as you've not given them the opportunity to diagnose it themselves and have now allowed an non-franchised repairer to work on it, I honestly doubt you'll get a penny from them.
Still, it's worth asking! Just make sure you have all the facts first - starting with which engine you have.
freedomdriver said:
Agree particularly with the point made by janesmith1950 ' Saying something is 'out of warranty' is not a catch all to remove responsibility for premature failures, as many manufacturers of many products have found to their cost'.
It's true. The Sale of Goods Act 1979 gives you comeback against the supplier for six years from purchase. It's been replaced now by the Consumer Rights Act 2015, but since you bought the car from the original supplying BMW dealer before then, it's still the old law. I hope it's not hit that six years yet, btw, because your legal comeback ends on that sixth anniversary. BUT... after six months, it's down to you to prove that the flaw was inherent at the time of purchase. The fact it's worked just fine for nearly six years and 80k miles means that's difficult.Oh, you did buy the car new, right? If not, then you have no legal recompense from the original supplying dealer - just from whoever YOU bought it from, because they're the only people you have any contract with. You will never have any recompense from BMW GB, because you didn't buy the car from them.
freedomdriver said:
At 80k miles a timing chain breaking and cost incurred is in my opinion not good enough especially in light of the quality you would expect from BMW and the fact the car has been serviced regularly.
To the letter, by BMW dealers EVERY SINGLE TIME?Because, if not, the dealers' lawyers can say the problem probably lies in those non-dealer services. All bets are off, and you've proven nothing without expensive expert testimony to show there's a definite manufacturing/materials/design fault. A bit of supposition and "but lots..." proves nothing. If this was the US, there may be scope for some kind of class-action lawsuit. Thankfully, it isn't the US.
Even then, the recompense would be that the supplier would be ordered to repair the damage. But you've already had somebody else do that, without providing the supplier the opportunity to do it themselves. They will not be ordered to pay for somebody else's work.
NelsonM3 said:
I've had 100% goodwill on engines with more mileage recently so it's definitely worth getting it to a dealer.
Certainly worth a try. I had the timing chain tensioner fail on an Audi A3, car was out of warranty but had full dealer service history. Initially got a silly price from Audi dealer but after some discussion they covered 75% of it.Not had a BMW for some time but had a 323 which suffered the high oil consumption/low compression/nikasil problem when well out of warranty but because of FDSH (and a known issue) it was done FOC.
Update - Just thought an update is in order after all the helpful comments received. The engine is the N47 which is the one prone to having timing chains snap. BMW confirm that they have a goodwill gesture though as noted in previous posts they will not make any decision as to what they can offer (if anything at all) unless the car is seen at one of their approved centres. With the car at the indy and undergoing repairs I was not going to get the engine put back together in a broken state (which will also incur charges at the indy) to be then looked at by BMW who may or may not offer any goodwill gesture depending on their findings. Also if they did offer a goodwill gesture there is no indicator of what amount this will be. The only realistic option is to get the indy garage fix the car then have BMW look at it at what they can do and they will decide if they will pay anything towards the costs of the indy depending on what they note - they make no promises but agree to look (not optimistic but worth a shot). In hindsight should have just had the car towed to BMW despite the warranty being out given the service history. Maybe my mistake is a lesson others can learn from. Cheers anyhow for the great advice
GroundEffect said:
I wonder what they got wrong in their engine durability work to miss this one.
Supplier issue so their DV signoff wasn't valid?
Oil level or quality in testing vs production?
Vibrational or torsional loads different?
IIRC they screwed up the machining on the crank sprocket which caused rapid wear of the chain. Unfortunately because of the brain dead decision to put the timing chain at the rear, the sprockets are part of the crankshaft so it's a very expensive fix.Supplier issue so their DV signoff wasn't valid?
Oil level or quality in testing vs production?
Vibrational or torsional loads different?
It's incredible just how incompetent BMW have been with their recent four cylinder engine designs. PSA obviously thought self destructing timing components would make their Prince engine more appealing to BMW
freedomdriver said:
Update - Just thought an update is in order after all the helpful comments received. The engine is the N47 which is the one prone to having timing chains snap. BMW confirm that they have a goodwill gesture though as noted in previous posts they will not make any decision as to what they can offer (if anything at all) unless the car is seen at one of their approved centres. With the car at the indy and undergoing repairs I was not going to get the engine put back together in a broken state (which will also incur charges at the indy) to be then looked at by BMW who may or may not offer any goodwill gesture depending on their findings. Also if they did offer a goodwill gesture there is no indicator of what amount this will be. The only realistic option is to get the indy garage fix the car then have BMW look at it at what they can do and they will decide if they will pay anything towards the costs of the indy depending on what they note - they make no promises but agree to look (not optimistic but worth a shot). In hindsight should have just had the car towed to BMW despite the warranty being out given the service history. Maybe my mistake is a lesson others can learn from. Cheers anyhow for the great advice
You'll probably find that 100% of the bill at the indy is still cheaper than the post-goodwill bill from a dealer would be.TooMany2cvs said:
freedomdriver said:
Update - Just thought an update is in order after all the helpful comments received. The engine is the N47 which is the one prone to having timing chains snap. BMW confirm that they have a goodwill gesture though as noted in previous posts they will not make any decision as to what they can offer (if anything at all) unless the car is seen at one of their approved centres. With the car at the indy and undergoing repairs I was not going to get the engine put back together in a broken state (which will also incur charges at the indy) to be then looked at by BMW who may or may not offer any goodwill gesture depending on their findings. Also if they did offer a goodwill gesture there is no indicator of what amount this will be. The only realistic option is to get the indy garage fix the car then have BMW look at it at what they can do and they will decide if they will pay anything towards the costs of the indy depending on what they note - they make no promises but agree to look (not optimistic but worth a shot). In hindsight should have just had the car towed to BMW despite the warranty being out given the service history. Maybe my mistake is a lesson others can learn from. Cheers anyhow for the great advice
You'll probably find that 100% of the bill at the indy is still cheaper than the post-goodwill bill from a dealer would be.
As i said further up the page - damned if you do, damned if you dont.
Forget taking it to BMW.
At six years old you *might* get a 50% contribution on a bill that exceeds the value of the car. What you will have is an £800 bill to strip the top of the engine and say 'yes it's f
ked'. Then BMW say no and you're left with a car in bits.
It depends largely on how fast the engine was spinning at the time. Low speed - broken rockers. Anything higher will be buggered cams (the lobes are knocked around on the hollow shaft), smashed cam carriers and in extreme cases the chain can whip around, bunch up and crack the back of the block.
Where are you in the UK? I can probably point you in the direction of a good specialist to repair it.
At six years old you *might* get a 50% contribution on a bill that exceeds the value of the car. What you will have is an £800 bill to strip the top of the engine and say 'yes it's f
ked'. Then BMW say no and you're left with a car in bits.It depends largely on how fast the engine was spinning at the time. Low speed - broken rockers. Anything higher will be buggered cams (the lobes are knocked around on the hollow shaft), smashed cam carriers and in extreme cases the chain can whip around, bunch up and crack the back of the block.
Where are you in the UK? I can probably point you in the direction of a good specialist to repair it.
Mr2Mike said:
PSA obviously thought self destructing timing components would make their Prince engine more appealing to BMW
The Prince engine is actually a BMW design. The chain is the very same part as used on the 2001 onwards N42 and the way the engine is put together is just like an N42/3/5/6 and N20, and nothing like anything PSA did. That engine is a piece of junk as well. I've just had a chain replaced at 60k - both the chain and the crank sprocket were fked. PSA engines are built in France and the MINI ones at Hams Hall Christmas Cracker factory but they are the same thing. (ste) The predecessor was the old 1360 unit going back to the old 205 (the engine that never, ever went wrong), whilst the non turbo Peugeot unit has a cambelt. The Prince is used in the F20 114i/116i/118i as well as the F30 316i. One to avoid - but these days, what BMW engine isn't?
jeremyh1 said:
Is this the issue where the actual timing chain guides are plastic base and wear causing the chain to go slack and fail
No, that's the petrol units. The chain stretches (wear in the links), the tensioner plunger runs out of travel and the chain either jumps a tooth or it thrashes against the guides until they break. The problem has got worse with every generation - the N43 was the nadir and the N20 is just starting to show signs of it.iSore said:
. The problem has got worse with every generation - the N43 was the nadir and the N20 is just starting to show signs of it.
It's good to know whats really going on with these, I generally avoid buying any with the 177 bhp 2.0d years 2008-2011, and any N43 petrol 2009-2011 but whats your view on the lower bhp 2.0 diesels and are the later 2.0 cars still having problems with chains (4 cyl)?Best advice buying a used BMW is go for a 6 cylinder petrol or diesel they are far superior than the trouble prone 4 cyl models. what a shambles from BMW.
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