RE: New TVR Griffith on the move
Discussion
Thom said:
Well, since you are getting personal, I do not feel any more clown-esque than people who continually support the new car feel any clown-esque to me. It just goes to show what people might (or rather very unfortunately might not) expect of a TVR by today's standards.
It wasn't personal, the people who blindly support it are just as bad. I'm all for a balanced discussion but when you're only contribution is 'it looks awful', what's the point? It's important not to misconstrue being positive vs the TVR can do no wrong mentality.We've not even seen a final production model yet. I'm hoping it's marvelous.
triathlonstu said:
I'm hoping it's marvelous.
Me too, as we can always hope they will have a major redesign of the shape.yonex said:
Do tell, what would this car that, 'should not look like any other car' take inspiration from, a Corvette C6?
Could your sentence miss a verb? Can you please reword it?Edited by Thom on Wednesday 20th September 13:25
Thom said:
triathlonstu said:
I'm hoping it's marvelous.
Me too, as we can always hope they will have a major redesign of the shape.yonex said:
Do tell, what would this car that, 'should not look like any other car' take inspiration from, a Corvette C6?
Could your sentence miss a verb? Can you please reword it?No, it is quite obvious what I am asking you. In fact, just buy that C6, or don't, it really is as irrelevant as your participation in a thread about a car that you have clearly failed to understand on any level. Then seek only to pick fault.
Corvette C6 ZR1 is a good car, and looks ok, i neither love or hate them. The most recent versions are an improvement, but they aren't exactly special looking, let alone remotely original or unique, the TVR is certainly much the cleaner looking. And last time I saw a corvette's interior... yeesh. I've taken a very close look inside the TVR when I saw it, and liked the interior a lot, certainly appeared higher quality and much more unique than the corvettes. Good bang-for-the-buck agreed, but not all THAT good:
If you look at power to weight the current Z06 has 659bnp but weighs 1600kg i.e. about the same PtW as the TVR, yet the Z06 starts at £92,700 + options. So, for the expected theatre and uniqueness, I personally would have the TVR.... by a few miles. I certainly would never call the Z06 "what the TVR should be".
If you look at power to weight the current Z06 has 659bnp but weighs 1600kg i.e. about the same PtW as the TVR, yet the Z06 starts at £92,700 + options. So, for the expected theatre and uniqueness, I personally would have the TVR.... by a few miles. I certainly would never call the Z06 "what the TVR should be".
PhantomPH said:
And there lies some of the issue tho, mate - I am not sure that has been made clear enough. A grand unveiling/launch in this instance feels like a "here is the new TVR, all ready to go". Other manufacturers don't unveil a car that is still in prototype stage - they are normally papped at The Ring in black paint. Here I was made to feel like I was looking at the production offering of a new TVR. And if I'm not, then that point should have been much harder driven home.
TVR have not helped themselves.
Quite - well said.TVR have not helped themselves.
My understanding (admittedly from the articles on here and the Shmee video) is that this was pretty much it, the finished article. I judged their publicity of their machine on that basis and found it wanting; now- if this only a prototype, subject to change, still to be tested on the road and track then I can understand their approach - however that strategy has not been communicated well (if at all). A minute long clip of it driving in a car park is....a bit unfulfilling.
yonex said:
Obtuse.
No, it is quite obvious what I am asking you. In fact, just buy that C6, or don't, it really is as irrelevant as your participation in a thread about a car that you have clearly failed to understand on any level. Then seek only to pick fault.
I don't like the new TVR, as opposed to people who seem to support the effort of reliving a brand despite not really adhering to how the new car looks. I'd rather appear obtuse than others who have turned blind just because this new car carries their favourite badge and try to link it with some past glory when its last meaningful boss parted with the brand 13 years ago.No, it is quite obvious what I am asking you. In fact, just buy that C6, or don't, it really is as irrelevant as your participation in a thread about a car that you have clearly failed to understand on any level. Then seek only to pick fault.
The C6 is an overpowered, front engine, two seater sports car with a handling that is not too bad, that remains affordable as most of the budget was spent into making the car a half-decent dynamic and eventful drive. It certainly looks a bit dull as in slightly conservative, but it does not look exactly bad for a car in that price range.
The budget for this new TVR was properly not balanced enough towards its shape, and perhaps too much towards its engineering.
In fact when really crunching the numbers on this TVR in terms of sheer bang for the buck, this is how I see the competition:
TVR Griffith £90k launch edition (which I am led to believe is more or less fully optioned up), we all know the facts/figs.
Corvette Z06 £93k+options for 659bhp @1600kg or about 410bhp/tonne, looks hit and miss, crap inside.
Porsche 911 C2S £87k+options for 420bhp @ 1400kg or about 300bhp/tonne. Known build quality/interior, looks good but no longer turns heads, frankly can be a bit boring. A bit more tech laden obviously.
Porsche Cayman GT4 about £85k 2nd hand, 385bhp @ 1340kg or about 290bhp/tonne. Arguably the best handling andmost track focussed.
Jaguar F-Type V8R £91k+options for 550bhp @ 1780kg or about 310bhp/tonne. Looks great, and has a known level of madness. Interior is good (though not all that special), but Auto only.
Nissan GTR £82,500+options for 570bnp @ 1740kg or about 330bhp/tonne. Probably best tech and quickest off the line/track monster. Looks are a bit chalk and cheese.
Merc AMG GT £99,000+options for 476bhp @ 1650kg or about 290bhp/tonne. Slowest here, but merc quality.
Honestly imo, the Griffith stands very well in all of this company - in both looks, drama and value. Once you take into account compound inflation, it's also not actually much more expensive than TVR's of the 2000's either. The only one really that scares me in terms of value out of these would be the GTR... or a Ford Mustang! But there's little to compete with a mustang for value.
TVR Griffith £90k launch edition (which I am led to believe is more or less fully optioned up), we all know the facts/figs.
Corvette Z06 £93k+options for 659bhp @1600kg or about 410bhp/tonne, looks hit and miss, crap inside.
Porsche 911 C2S £87k+options for 420bhp @ 1400kg or about 300bhp/tonne. Known build quality/interior, looks good but no longer turns heads, frankly can be a bit boring. A bit more tech laden obviously.
Porsche Cayman GT4 about £85k 2nd hand, 385bhp @ 1340kg or about 290bhp/tonne. Arguably the best handling andmost track focussed.
Jaguar F-Type V8R £91k+options for 550bhp @ 1780kg or about 310bhp/tonne. Looks great, and has a known level of madness. Interior is good (though not all that special), but Auto only.
Nissan GTR £82,500+options for 570bnp @ 1740kg or about 330bhp/tonne. Probably best tech and quickest off the line/track monster. Looks are a bit chalk and cheese.
Merc AMG GT £99,000+options for 476bhp @ 1650kg or about 290bhp/tonne. Slowest here, but merc quality.
Honestly imo, the Griffith stands very well in all of this company - in both looks, drama and value. Once you take into account compound inflation, it's also not actually much more expensive than TVR's of the 2000's either. The only one really that scares me in terms of value out of these would be the GTR... or a Ford Mustang! But there's little to compete with a mustang for value.
Thom said:
I don't like the new TVR, as opposed to people who seem to support the effort of reliving a brand despite not really adhering to how the new car looks. I'd rather appear obtuse than others who have turned blind just because this new car carries their favourite badge and try to link it with some past glory when its last meaningful boss parted with the brand 13 years ago.
The C6 is an overpowered, front engine, two seater sports car with a handling that is not too bad, that remains affordable as most of the budget was spent into making the car a half-decent dynamic and eventful drive. It certainly looks a bit dull as in slightly conservative, but it does not look exactly bad for a car in that price range.
The budget for this new TVR was properly not balanced enough towards its shape, and perhaps too much towards its engineering.
Sorry I don't mean to hash on my own posts, and i'm no Corvette expert, but the current Z06 which is the closest in power to weight as this TVR, is £93k starting!! How is that more affordable than the TVR? The C6 is an overpowered, front engine, two seater sports car with a handling that is not too bad, that remains affordable as most of the budget was spent into making the car a half-decent dynamic and eventful drive. It certainly looks a bit dull as in slightly conservative, but it does not look exactly bad for a car in that price range.
The budget for this new TVR was properly not balanced enough towards its shape, and perhaps too much towards its engineering.
I really hope this is a successful venture and can be the start of a revival of the marque. I grew up near Blackpool and from a young age always wanted to own a TVR, not a Porsche or other super car but a lairy, fast but good looking fiberglass beast from blackpool.
I was fortunate enough to end up driving a wedge and them a Chim before having to make do with a sensible car. I am not in the position to buy a new TVR so maybe my thoughts are irrelevant, however all the later TVRs, post the wedge era to my eyes have had an aesthetic beauty both inside and out. Whether in the case of the chim, griff and cerbera a sort of modern classic look or with the tuscan and on-wards a truly modern but pleasing look. All of them were cars that you would look back at after parking and would get to you in a way that most modern machinery just doesn't.
On paper the new offering sounds great, lightweight, promised robustness, power, performance. However the looks just don't do it for me. The front reminds me of a Granada Scorpio, never the best looking car, it just doesn't seem to flow. I think for a niche manufacturer to be successful they need to appeal not just to the mind but the heart aswell and for me on screen at least this just does not do it. Maybe in the flesh it will be different. I really hope it is. For a lot of people with that sort of disposable income posing in front of their friends will be as much a part of ownership as how it drives.
I was fortunate enough to end up driving a wedge and them a Chim before having to make do with a sensible car. I am not in the position to buy a new TVR so maybe my thoughts are irrelevant, however all the later TVRs, post the wedge era to my eyes have had an aesthetic beauty both inside and out. Whether in the case of the chim, griff and cerbera a sort of modern classic look or with the tuscan and on-wards a truly modern but pleasing look. All of them were cars that you would look back at after parking and would get to you in a way that most modern machinery just doesn't.
On paper the new offering sounds great, lightweight, promised robustness, power, performance. However the looks just don't do it for me. The front reminds me of a Granada Scorpio, never the best looking car, it just doesn't seem to flow. I think for a niche manufacturer to be successful they need to appeal not just to the mind but the heart aswell and for me on screen at least this just does not do it. Maybe in the flesh it will be different. I really hope it is. For a lot of people with that sort of disposable income posing in front of their friends will be as much a part of ownership as how it drives.
Thom said:
I don't like the new TVR, as opposed to people who seem to support the effort of reliving a brand despite not really adhering to how the new car looks. I'd rather appear obtuse than others who have turned blind just because this new car carries their favourite badge and try to link it with some past glory when its last meaningful boss parted with the brand 13 years ago.
The C6 is an overpowered, front engine, two seater sports car with a handling that is not too bad, that remains affordable as most of the budget was spent into making the car a half-decent dynamic and eventful drive. It certainly looks a bit dull as in slightly conservative, but it does not look exactly bad for a car in that price range.
The budget for this new TVR was properly not balanced enough towards its shape, and perhaps too much towards its engineering.
So, what do you know about the chassis and the dynamics? It's less about being blind and just being a total cynic. There's no link between the past and the current TVR, and it's faintly amusing you'd call PW into question. Truth is you don't know how this car will drive. We do know the weight and power output, which of correct will make for one very fast car. One which is cheaper and faster than the Corvette you keep quoting as being affordable? I guess that makes the Griffith a bargain by your own admission The C6 is an overpowered, front engine, two seater sports car with a handling that is not too bad, that remains affordable as most of the budget was spent into making the car a half-decent dynamic and eventful drive. It certainly looks a bit dull as in slightly conservative, but it does not look exactly bad for a car in that price range.
The budget for this new TVR was properly not balanced enough towards its shape, and perhaps too much towards its engineering.
jhonn said:
PhantomPH said:
And there lies some of the issue tho, mate - I am not sure that has been made clear enough. A grand unveiling/launch in this instance feels like a "here is the new TVR, all ready to go". Other manufacturers don't unveil a car that is still in prototype stage - they are normally papped at The Ring in black paint. Here I was made to feel like I was looking at the production offering of a new TVR. And if I'm not, then that point should have been much harder driven home.
TVR have not helped themselves.
Quite - well said.TVR have not helped themselves.
My understanding (admittedly from the articles on here and the Shmee video) is that this was pretty much it, the finished article. I judged their publicity of their machine on that basis and found it wanting; now- if this only a prototype, subject to change, still to be tested on the road and track then I can understand their approach - however that strategy has not been communicated well (if at all). A minute long clip of it driving in a car park is....a bit unfulfilling.
Firstly, TVR is a small and new company, I would think they wish to appear approachable, and as real people, much like Morgan perhaps, and not like the motoring giants such as Porsche, who are yes, far more clinical. That is probably at the cost of seeming unprofessional, my hope is that Gordon Murray will not put his name to something unless in the end, it's pretty damn good.
Secondly, TVR have (and likely need) the investment of the 500 depositors, some of who'm have put their money in 2 years ago already, when the Griffith was but a sketch on someones pad. This is not how the bigger manufacturers work. When they release a car it is final and ready to sell, but they don't need to generate the interest in the lead-up, or use any financing. Given that there are 500 members of the public who have trusted £5000 each, I think it only fair to them, that TVR give reasonably regular updates on the car, which they have done. I think they've been pretty honest so far too, especially if you talk to them directly, or if you have followed their marketing closely over the period. Any changes they make will be pretty small, though, my personal hope is that they will make a slight edit to the nose and bonnet.
Thirdly, for a new company like this, releasing the car "early" before it's totally signed off, they can gauge the reaction and gather feedback, and it gives them a chance to make any changes that they deem necessary. From what I can tell, they have certainly been gathering feedback...
Why should I care how it will drive since its looks wrong?
If we put looks aside, then I'm saying the C6 ZR1 is what a modern TVR should be, as explained a few posts earlier.
The C6 looks a bit dull compared to how I think a TVR should look but it still looks far better than this new Griffith.
If we put looks aside, then I'm saying the C6 ZR1 is what a modern TVR should be, as explained a few posts earlier.
The C6 looks a bit dull compared to how I think a TVR should look but it still looks far better than this new Griffith.
Thom said:
Jazz Machine said:
Sorry I don't mean to hash on my own posts, and i'm no Corvette expert, but the current Z06 which is the closest in power to weight as this TVR, is £93k starting!! How is that more affordable than the TVR?
I'm talking about the C6 ZR1, not the C7 Z06.yonex said:
Oh, so a used car is cheaper than a brand new launch car, who'd of thought! Better off buying a used McLaren and benchmarking that?
You are not telling me that people who buy such cars never look at the used market?Where have you seen a used McLaren for sale at less than £100k, and do you think it will be as easy to maintain as a used Corvette or, for that matter, even a used TVR?
Thom said:
Why should I care how it will drive since its looks wrong?
If we put looks aside, then I'm saying the C6 ZR1 is what a modern TVR should be, as explained a few posts earlier.
The C6 looks a bit dull compared to how I think a TVR should look but it still looks far better than this new Griffith.
I personally disagree, the C6 ZR1 in the flesh doesn't look near as good. I've seen both. The TVR is so much cleaner in design. But that's just me. Not that either is perfect.If we put looks aside, then I'm saying the C6 ZR1 is what a modern TVR should be, as explained a few posts earlier.
The C6 looks a bit dull compared to how I think a TVR should look but it still looks far better than this new Griffith.
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