RE: New TVR Griffith on the move
Discussion
Jazz Machine said:
I agree that these are very valid points, but I also offer a flip-side to the argument:
Firstly, TVR is a small and new company, I would think they wish to appear approachable, and as real people, much like Morgan perhaps, and not like the motoring giants such as Porsche, who are yes, far more clinical. That is probably at the cost of seeming unprofessional, my hope is that Gordon Murray will not put his name to something unless in the end, it's pretty damn good.
Secondly, TVR have (and likely need) the investment of the 500 depositors, some of who'm have put their money in 2 years ago already, when the Griffith was but a sketch on someones pad. This is not how the bigger manufacturers work. When they release a car it is final and ready to sell, but they don't need to generate the interest in the lead-up, or use any financing. Given that there are 500 members of the public who have trusted £5000 each, I think it only fair to them, that TVR give reasonably regular updates on the car, which they have done. I think they've been pretty honest so far too, especially if you talk to them directly, or if you have followed their marketing closely over the period. Any changes they make will be pretty small, though, my personal hope is that they will make a slight edit to the nose and bonnet.
Thirdly, for a new company like this, releasing the car "early" before it's totally signed off, they can gauge the reaction and gather feedback, and it gives them a chance to make any changes that they deem necessary. From what I can tell, they have certainly been gathering feedback...
I am pretty sure that the deposit plan was never anything else than a test to gauge (half)serious interest and a marketing ploy. That's ok, being "limited" is always a good thing, and you can bet it raises emotional commitment belonging to the "elite 500" club. Certainly did for me, although i'm aware of the psychological mechanisms and can step back and take a 3rd person view of myself and reflect being in that situation.Firstly, TVR is a small and new company, I would think they wish to appear approachable, and as real people, much like Morgan perhaps, and not like the motoring giants such as Porsche, who are yes, far more clinical. That is probably at the cost of seeming unprofessional, my hope is that Gordon Murray will not put his name to something unless in the end, it's pretty damn good.
Secondly, TVR have (and likely need) the investment of the 500 depositors, some of who'm have put their money in 2 years ago already, when the Griffith was but a sketch on someones pad. This is not how the bigger manufacturers work. When they release a car it is final and ready to sell, but they don't need to generate the interest in the lead-up, or use any financing. Given that there are 500 members of the public who have trusted £5000 each, I think it only fair to them, that TVR give reasonably regular updates on the car, which they have done. I think they've been pretty honest so far too, especially if you talk to them directly, or if you have followed their marketing closely over the period. Any changes they make will be pretty small, though, my personal hope is that they will make a slight edit to the nose and bonnet.
Thirdly, for a new company like this, releasing the car "early" before it's totally signed off, they can gauge the reaction and gather feedback, and it gives them a chance to make any changes that they deem necessary. From what I can tell, they have certainly been gathering feedback...
I am very sure, though, they never needed the money for operational expenses, investment or anything that has to do with planning, designing or building the car, or getting it to production, hence no danger of "running out of deposit-money". The whole venture must have cost a lot more already than the measly 2.5 mio max that they received. Google for TVR financing etc., take a look at their accounts. There are also various articles from venture firms and government about financial support, long term plans etc.
As far as looks are concerned, this is it. This is the final car, give or take a few details, but the front is as it is. Les has been relatively clear about that, imho. I agree the front, at least from the pics, is the weak part, it's also a bit inconsistent looking from different angles. But then, there is no car that gets me a 100%, not the F-Type, no BMW (except Z8 remotely), no Vette (C7 is a turn in the right direction, but the back, hm), no Porsche really. Lotus, leightweight approach, but no big engine, etc. Merc AMG GT, ok, that one's cool, but a Merc. McLaren Mercedes SLR , ugly nose.
No, from a package point of view, the TVR is still standing unique and i'm still standing in line to get one.
.
Jazz Machine said:
I agree that these are very valid points, but I also offer a flip-side to the argument:
Firstly, TVR is a small and new company, I would think they wish to appear approachable, and as real people, much like Morgan perhaps, and not like the motoring giants such as Porsche, who are yes, far more clinical. That is probably at the cost of seeming unprofessional, my hope is that Gordon Murray will not put his name to something unless in the end, it's pretty damn good.
Fair comment - I too hope that the car is a real success.Firstly, TVR is a small and new company, I would think they wish to appear approachable, and as real people, much like Morgan perhaps, and not like the motoring giants such as Porsche, who are yes, far more clinical. That is probably at the cost of seeming unprofessional, my hope is that Gordon Murray will not put his name to something unless in the end, it's pretty damn good.
Jazz Machine said:
Secondly, TVR have (and likely need) the investment of the 500 depositors, some of who'm have put their money in 2 years ago already, when the Griffith was but a sketch on someones pad. This is not how the bigger manufacturers work. When they release a car it is final and ready to sell, but they don't need to generate the interest in the lead-up, or use any financing. Given that there are 500 members of the public who have trusted £5000 each, I think it only fair to them, that TVR give reasonably regular updates on the car, which they have done. I think they've been pretty honest so far too, especially if you talk to them directly, or if you have followed their marketing closely over the period. Any changes they make will be pretty small, though, my personal hope is that they will make a slight edit to the nose and bonnet.
Thirdly, for a new company like this, releasing the car "early" before it's totally signed off, they can gauge the reaction and gather feedback, and it gives them a chance to make any changes that they deem necessary. From what I can tell, they have certainly been gathering feedback...
OK - it just seems a bit of an odd way to do it; they are now having to filter lots of feedback from forums like this - feedback based on poor publicity photos and a short video, correlate that with the feedback from the investors who have already stumped up their money and then decide what changes (if any) to make. There's a danger that they're going to get lots of conflicting direction and how is that going to affect the final design? They could get pulled in different directions, meaning more time/money/effort and delay in coming up with a final acceptable product.Thirdly, for a new company like this, releasing the car "early" before it's totally signed off, they can gauge the reaction and gather feedback, and it gives them a chance to make any changes that they deem necessary. From what I can tell, they have certainly been gathering feedback...
I would have thought that they finalise all of the design details (bar the smallest easily changed ones) before taking it to the marketplace. (but then again I've zilch experience in this so what do I know?
)Thom said:
You are not telling me that people who buy such cars never look at the used market?
Where have you seen a used McLaren for sale at less than £100k, and do you think it will be as easy to maintain as a used Corvette or, for that matter, even a used TVR?
You are the one suggesting looking at the used market! Knowing exactly what it takes to look after one, no, I haven't really got the disposable income to properly enjoy one. The TVR though, that's different, or I would hope it is. Maintaining a Corvette just involves throwing a bucket of water over it and going to the petrol station. And the 12C is around that figure, give or take. You really do get caught up with these things it seems.Where have you seen a used McLaren for sale at less than £100k, and do you think it will be as easy to maintain as a used Corvette or, for that matter, even a used TVR?
Just seen this thread and read through it, wasn't going to post as I've expressed my thoughts on the other 'new' TVR threads, however, these exchanges with 'Thom' have caught my attention, and I felt the need to comment...
Despite Thom's profile indicating he may be a serial pork man I believe the underlying theme of his posts actually suggest he is an avid TVR enthusiast, but cannot bring himself to admit it publicly. Clearly, the references to something called a 'Corvette' are red herrings, taking the focus away from real drivers cars into a fantasy world of straight line fast and furious type automotive hype and make believe where anything is possible but not real.
I say, give Thom some slack, he is a man torn between soulless German pork and proper British beef.....
Here's to Thom
Despite Thom's profile indicating he may be a serial pork man I believe the underlying theme of his posts actually suggest he is an avid TVR enthusiast, but cannot bring himself to admit it publicly. Clearly, the references to something called a 'Corvette' are red herrings, taking the focus away from real drivers cars into a fantasy world of straight line fast and furious type automotive hype and make believe where anything is possible but not real.
I say, give Thom some slack, he is a man torn between soulless German pork and proper British beef.....
Here's to Thom
bullittmcqueen said:
Jazz Machine said:
I agree that these are very valid points, but I also offer a flip-side to the argument:
Firstly, TVR is a small and new company, I would think they wish to appear approachable, and as real people, much like Morgan perhaps, and not like the motoring giants such as Porsche, who are yes, far more clinical. That is probably at the cost of seeming unprofessional, my hope is that Gordon Murray will not put his name to something unless in the end, it's pretty damn good.
Secondly, TVR have (and likely need) the investment of the 500 depositors, some of who'm have put their money in 2 years ago already, when the Griffith was but a sketch on someones pad. This is not how the bigger manufacturers work. When they release a car it is final and ready to sell, but they don't need to generate the interest in the lead-up, or use any financing. Given that there are 500 members of the public who have trusted £5000 each, I think it only fair to them, that TVR give reasonably regular updates on the car, which they have done. I think they've been pretty honest so far too, especially if you talk to them directly, or if you have followed their marketing closely over the period. Any changes they make will be pretty small, though, my personal hope is that they will make a slight edit to the nose and bonnet.
Thirdly, for a new company like this, releasing the car "early" before it's totally signed off, they can gauge the reaction and gather feedback, and it gives them a chance to make any changes that they deem necessary. From what I can tell, they have certainly been gathering feedback...
I am pretty sure that the deposit plan was never anything else than a test to gauge (half)serious interest and a marketing ploy. That's ok, being "limited" is always a good thing, and you can bet it raises emotional commitment belonging to the "elite 500" club. Certainly did for me, although i'm aware of the psychological mechanisms and can step back and take a 3rd person view of myself and reflect being in that situation.Firstly, TVR is a small and new company, I would think they wish to appear approachable, and as real people, much like Morgan perhaps, and not like the motoring giants such as Porsche, who are yes, far more clinical. That is probably at the cost of seeming unprofessional, my hope is that Gordon Murray will not put his name to something unless in the end, it's pretty damn good.
Secondly, TVR have (and likely need) the investment of the 500 depositors, some of who'm have put their money in 2 years ago already, when the Griffith was but a sketch on someones pad. This is not how the bigger manufacturers work. When they release a car it is final and ready to sell, but they don't need to generate the interest in the lead-up, or use any financing. Given that there are 500 members of the public who have trusted £5000 each, I think it only fair to them, that TVR give reasonably regular updates on the car, which they have done. I think they've been pretty honest so far too, especially if you talk to them directly, or if you have followed their marketing closely over the period. Any changes they make will be pretty small, though, my personal hope is that they will make a slight edit to the nose and bonnet.
Thirdly, for a new company like this, releasing the car "early" before it's totally signed off, they can gauge the reaction and gather feedback, and it gives them a chance to make any changes that they deem necessary. From what I can tell, they have certainly been gathering feedback...
I am very sure, though, they never needed the money for operational expenses, investment or anything that has to do with planning, designing or building the car, or getting it to production, hence no danger of "running out of deposit-money". The whole venture must have cost a lot more already than the measly 2.5 mio max that they received. Google for TVR financing etc., take a look at their accounts. There are also various articles from venture firms and government about financial support, long term plans etc.
As far as looks are concerned, this is it. This is the final car, give or take a few details, but the front is as it is. Les has been relatively clear about that, imho. I agree the front, at least from the pics, is the weak part, it's also a bit inconsistent looking from different angles. But then, there is no car that gets me a 100%, not the F-Type, no BMW (except Z8 remotely), no Vette (C7 is a turn in the right direction, but the back, hm), no Porsche really. Lotus, leightweight approach, but no big engine, etc. Merc AMG GT, ok, that one's cool, but a Merc. McLaren Mercedes SLR , ugly nose.
No, from a package point of view, the TVR is still standing unique and i'm still standing in line to get one.
Yeah it's not quite consistent between the angles, I agree. I do think the F-type is overall prettier, but not as unique, I also love the Vantage, and particularly the Mclaren 570s/540c, and would maybe take these 3 above the TVR if t were looks alone, but as for one entire package... the TVR appeals to me, and my deposit has for the time being stayed in. I was vaguely on the search for a new car anyway, my Cayman S turned 9 years old, so this comes with pretty good timing!
ChilliWhizz said:
Just seen this thread and read through it, wasn't going to post as I've expressed my thoughts on the other 'new' TVR threads, however, these exchanges with 'Thom' have caught my attention, and I felt the need to comment...
Despite Thom's profile indicating he may be a serial pork man I believe the underlying theme of his posts actually suggest he is an avid TVR enthusiast, but cannot bring himself to admit it publicly. Clearly, the references to something called a 'Corvette' are red herrings, taking the focus away from real drivers cars into a fantasy world of straight line fast and furious type automotive hype and make believe where anything is possible but not real.
I say, give Thom some slack, he is a man torn between soulless German pork and proper British beef.....
Here's to Thom
second that, here's to Thom, one day your dream will become reality Despite Thom's profile indicating he may be a serial pork man I believe the underlying theme of his posts actually suggest he is an avid TVR enthusiast, but cannot bring himself to admit it publicly. Clearly, the references to something called a 'Corvette' are red herrings, taking the focus away from real drivers cars into a fantasy world of straight line fast and furious type automotive hype and make believe where anything is possible but not real.
I say, give Thom some slack, he is a man torn between soulless German pork and proper British beef.....
Here's to Thom
ChilliWhizz said:
I say, give Thom some slack, he is a man torn between soulless German pork and proper British beef.....
Here's to Thom
You called ? ;-)Here's to Thom
For what it is worth, this thing looks amazing in the flesh, although not as shouty as some would like.
I totally see the market, still plenty of ludites out there, like me, that like most of what TVR stands for - and stood for.
Lotus not brutish enough, Porsche too common and "soft plastics" orientated, then man up and get a TVR, Mclaren is another price League up I think, even before extras.
blade7 said:
julian64 said:
Are you really saying that 500bhp in a 1250kg car is not going to be engaging enough for you ?
Would you bet your pension that those figures are true ?5.0 ford V8, tuned by cosworth, easy 500+ BHP there.
It's a steel chassis (with some clever composite bits), with a fibreglass body, IIRC most of the T-Cars were around 1150Kg, add 100Kg for a bit more trim and fancy bits, cant see why the weight is not achievable.
Jhonno said:
Absolutely! I think most of the negativity is coming from those who just don't seem to get what it is about..
Is it about a start up company calculating the free publicity and also the deposits they'd get justified buying the name, or is there some connection to the original cars/factory/people? snuffy said:
I'd not even bet my pension that the TVR will ever see production.
I wouldn't bet my pension on anything, but I bet max 5 grand that it will see production. Max loss is one thing, but don't lose sight of probability. Edited by bullittmcqueen on Wednesday 20th September 18:16
yonex said:
You are the one suggesting looking at the used market! Knowing exactly what it takes to look after one, no, I haven't really got the disposable income to properly enjoy one. The TVR though, that's different, or I would hope it is. Maintaining a Corvette just involves throwing a bucket of water over it and going to the petrol station. And the 12C is around that figure, give or take. You really do get caught up with these things it seems.
I was in the market for a 570S, but as someone who runs several nice British classic cars, I decided it lacked the soul a British car should have, and as a DIYer I cannot get to grip with paying £1k or so a year for an oil change. Call me mean if you want, but that's how it is.I have been a die-hard TVR fan since the Cerbera came out, before PH was born, and have followed much of the TVR drama with all the ups and downs experienced by lucky and not-so-lucky owners. Like many others probably I was disappointed when Wheeler sold the company, and was really hoping that this new "TVR" would live up to expectations of the TVR name, but the looks just do not do it, full stop. Will it be a great car? Perhaps. Do I wish all the people involved success? Absolutely. Does this car tick all the boxes worth of the TVR badge? Hell no.
There are lots of stereotypes about the Corvette but the C6 ZR1 is the only car I can think of these days that gathers all the proper TVR values - too much power, front engine, (reasonably) good looks, (relatively) simple architecture without too much driver aids, a proper handful if you provoke it, etc. It's important to have fun without going too fast. Murray will for sure have designed a lethally efficient car, and where efficiency begins, the fun - and the Sport in its purest form - ends. Let's see how this new car will fare with journos
If this is what a sport cars should be in 2017, then faire game, but that won't prevent me from shouting out loud for as long as I will be breathing that this is exactly where 4-wheeled fun has gone wrong. This is a point of view that many classic cars enthusiasts probably share, or at least, I have heard said repeatedly with unabashed confidence, and TVR was probably the last brand I can think of that could defend these values with indisputable relevance.
Call me "obtuse" if you will, but when I drive my porkers I expect things I would not expect from my classics, and vice versa. In a market where the choice is ever widening, I consider vital to work on core values. Perhaps the brand TVR does not have core values in the end, if we consider how many different people ran the company in the past, and considering how many radically different cars were made from the Grantura to the Sagaris.
There is chance the styling will evolve for the better on other possible models. After all, not all cars under the Wheeler era looked good. Let's see what they come up with if they can make profits and launch other models. I understand fully that a model that appeals to the masses would generate the revenues needed to build probably a profitable business in the long term, then give birth to hopefully other more exciting models, but I do not see this happening considering how the PR is being handled, not even considering the challenging looks of the car.
ChilliWhizz said:
Despite Thom's profile indicating he may be a serial pork man I believe the underlying theme of his posts actually suggest he is an avid TVR enthusiast, but cannot bring himself to admit it publicly.......I say, give Thom some slack, he is a man torn between soulless German pork and proper British beef.....
Here's to Thom
Here's to Thom
Thom said:
I have been a die-hard TVR fan since the Cerbera came out, before PH was born,
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