RE: PH Footnote: The Ineos Grenadier

RE: PH Footnote: The Ineos Grenadier

Wednesday 14th February 2018

Updated: The Ineos Grenadier

Ineos is moving forward with its Defender clone. First step? German expertise...



UPDATE 14/02/18
Ineos Automotive has announced that a deal has been reached with German engineering firm MBtech for it to become its official partner in the Projekt Grenadier's development.

You might have heard of MBtech, founded in 1995 as Mercedes-Benz Technologies. Despite the name, the company works with a wide range of clients within the industry, including recently aiding Porsche with the development of the Panamera S E-Hybrid. MBtech will now, "take the lead on overall vehicle development overseeing all components of the upcoming 4x4."

Working to progress the initial design concept through to a fully engineered vehicle, 200 engineers from the German outfit will be responsible for producing the initial test mules and prototypes later this year, aiming to ensure that the Grenadier is a "truly rugged, reliable and uncompromising 4x4."

Henry Kohlstruck, Managing Director of MBtech, said: "All of us at MBtech are looking forward to getting involved in this once-in-a-generation opportunity to develop a truly uncompromising off-road vehicle. The next six months are where the real work will begin as we take all the design variables into account. Our key competencies lie in developing SUVs and 4x4s, and we are very excited to be given such freedom and responsibility to help complete a fantastic automotive project."

The revival of a quintessentially British car, backed by German engineering - where have we heard that before? Still, if it leads to the creation of a vehicle with the charm and style of the Land Rover, but the build quality and reliability of, well, anything else, it can only be something to look forward to!



ORIGINAL STORY 20/11/17
By the time the final Land Rover Defender reached the end of the Solihull production line last year, its prolonged demise had been better documented than the fall of most empires. The model though had well-earned the theatrical spectacle of a factory floor strewn with photographers: that's what 67 years of heritage, engineering legitimacy and buyer adulation gets you.

The future though remains intriguingly uncertain. Land Rover will unequivocally replace the Defender - but the precise shape and nature of that car is a subject that rolls ruminatively around Gaydon like an imperial mint in the mouth of a distracted undergrad. Certainly it will not be exactly - or perhaps even vaguely - like the car it supersedes. And in that respect there are those who unhesitatingly feel like they could do better.


Jim Ratcliffe is apparently primary among them. Being founder and CEO of a firm like Ineos (one of the largest chemical manufacturers in the world) presumably endows you with a certain amount of confidence, and Ratcliffe - along with a pathfinder platoon made up of engineers and auto-industry bods - has thrown his exploratory hat into the what-comes-next ring.

If that sounds like lunacy then it's worth relating that Ineos Automotive not only has some financial clout courtesy of its parent company, but that the product they're talking about is a decidedly niche-market prospect for (one would suspect) the type of buyer currently happy to pay upwards of £70k for a nearly new example of the last Defender - or more for a Twisted or Kahn Design version.

The Ineos Grenadier - a temporary name borrowed from pub where the idea was reputedly born - will not, of course, actually be a Defender (JLR takes a famously litigious view of anyone silly enough to colour inside its trademarked lines) but will instead borrow liberally from its idiosyncratic list of features: an aluminium body, steel coil suspension, four-wheel drive, very generous axle articulation and the separate ladder frame chassis made unfashionable by the industry's preoccupation with unitary construction.


Handily - and not unlike the original thinking behind the Defender and its ancestors - that ought to make the Grenadier not only technically robust, but also comparatively affordable to construct (when placed next to the financial hurdle of, say, mass-producing a McLaren). However, that hardly moderates the challenge of conceiving, designing, fabricating, developing, outfitting, testing and perfecting a new car from the ground-up with nothing to work from except a 67-year-old model that you're not allowed to copy.

Still, nowhere is the ground softer for such exploits than the UK. The Defenders enormous popularity notwithstanding, the buying public's affection for cottage-industry-style manufacturers is well established and Ratcliffe's team has made all the right noises: the Grenadier's off-road bias will not be softened for on-road comfort - the idea is obviously for it to be as loud and as granular and as charismatic as the car it seeks to spiritually replace. As statements of early intent go, it's an encouraging one.

You can find out more at Ineos's new website - or cut straight to the chase below.

 

Author
Discussion

robemcdonald

Original Poster:

8,716 posts

195 months

Wednesday 20th September 2017
quotequote all
So Nigel Farages' older, cooler, brother is considering making making a £70k defender replica because he thought of it when having a couple of ales in the local.
Lots of pictures and footage of shoguns, g wagons and of course defenders, but the car in question remains an idea?
Countless other wealthy men have had similar ideas, but actually gone as far as a prototype before announcing it. This is a similarly bad concept as the Bugatti beaters built in a industrial unit in Bedford or Bradford.
The question is; "Drunk rich bloke thinks he might like to make a car" is that a story?

IrishAsal

70 posts

154 months

Wednesday 20th September 2017
quotequote all
After watching this video I'd quite like a 90s Pajero.

Good luck to him. I hope he builds it in Britian, and I hope it is as simple as possible.

b14

1,060 posts

187 months

Wednesday 20th September 2017
quotequote all
I wouldn't straight away write this one off or equate it to the next big supercar phenomenon coming out of a garden shed in Didcot. Supercars are expensive and incredibly difficult to design and build properly. The Defender, or its successor, is not nearly as complicated an undertaking. He's got the financial and manufacturing wherewithal as well - and the market is there.

blongs

192 posts

134 months

Wednesday 20th September 2017
quotequote all
Bring back the Santana!

I'd never heard of them, but spotted this in the Disneyland Paris carpark in the summer. I thought it was a Chinese copy but it turns out a Spanish firm took on the Defender, fixed its problems, upgraded parts and sold them.





https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santana_Motor

W12AAM

107 posts

80 months

Wednesday 20th September 2017
quotequote all
I hope he builds it...and in Great Britain, using British parts and using UK labour - Im sure it will sell well, if it looks "right"...and there is still a demand for these vehicles and if the the likes of Twisted get involved, It will help develop it into a new desirable icon.

The thing that puzzles me (& cant find the info. anywhere?) is why doesn't (or can't?!) he just buy the original tooling and pressings direct from Land Rover (or under license), like Caterham did with Lotus and BMH did for the MGB?

I thought he was trying to do buy the tooling & pressings originally?




Fish

3,975 posts

281 months

Wednesday 20th September 2017
quotequote all
I know a good few people who would want this. There is a massive hole in the market for a vehicle like this and I'm still astounded Landrover have left it for their newer trendy jelly moulds!

JohnGoodridge

529 posts

194 months

Wednesday 20th September 2017
quotequote all
So it can't look like a land rover, or be called a land rover, or be a land rover, but it wants to appropriate all that land rover cool, and affection.

Probably best to start the project by spending a couple of years eulogising the original, convincing everyone that you want to build a land rover so when you build your Ineos Grenadier that's how they'll think of it.

I'm aware the Land Rover TM isn't for sale, but at least Les actually bought TVR...


oldtimer2

728 posts

132 months

Wednesday 20th September 2017
quotequote all
At a price of £70k it is hardly a replacement for the original - more a rich mans toy.

shtu

3,407 posts

145 months

Wednesday 20th September 2017
quotequote all
In their shoes I'd be thinking about buying licensing rights to something like this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iveco_Massif

robemcdonald

Original Poster:

8,716 posts

195 months

Wednesday 20th September 2017
quotequote all
Fish said:
I know a good few people who would want this. There is a massive hole in the market for a vehicle like this and I'm still astounded Landrover have left it for their newer trendy jelly moulds!
Really? LR sold around 2 million series 1-3 and the various defenders over 50 years. They sold 600 thousand evoques in 5.
From a business point of view it's easy to see where the money is.

A good point from an earlier poster. This is a rich persons toy. As with the David Brown mini, it's about as far away from the original concept as you can get.

seefarr

1,461 posts

185 months

Wednesday 20th September 2017
quotequote all
I'm not sure there is actually a market for this. You either:

Want to spend £90k on something that looks all macho and tough but actually just want to tool around London or drive up a leafy driveway in quiet air-conditioned luxury. OR
Actually want to take something and use it off road or around a farm, in which case you don't want to spend £90k, you will just buy something utilitarian and Japanese (ie. reliable). OR
Just want a real Defender for nostalgic reasons, in which case you would just buy a second hand Defender.

If there was still a large enough market for the original Defender, JLR would still be making them. They are excellent at leaning on their heritage.

jhonn

1,556 posts

148 months

Wednesday 20th September 2017
quotequote all
Jeez - that name - Ineos Grenadier - what??

It's a lovely thought and I hate to sound like a pessimist, but I can't see a market for this either.

You can already buy a credible Land Rover Defender alternative called the Foers Ibex, fantastic off-road and a proven design - have you ever seen one?

People pay £70k+ or whatever for a Land Rover, because it's a Land Rover and has that credibility - I can't see many paying anything like that for a vehicle without the LR badge.

It'll never happen.

unpc

2,831 posts

212 months

Wednesday 20th September 2017
quotequote all
Not sure where this £70k came from. The article in the Telegraph said £35k which is more realistic.

malks222

1,851 posts

138 months

Wednesday 20th September 2017
quotequote all
W12AAM said:
The thing that puzzles me (& cant find the info. anywhere?) is why doesn't (or can't?!) he just buy the original tooling and pressings direct from Land Rover (or under license), like Caterham did with Lotus and BMH did for the MGB?

I thought he was trying to do buy the tooling & pressings originally?
from what I've heard/ read I think he tried to get the license from Land Rover to continue with the defender, but they said no.

Also agree with comments of why £70k is mentioned in the article, anything I've seen/ read/ heard has always said it would be an affordable practical car. Definitely not aimed at the 'Chelsea tractor' segment of the market, he wanted a vehicle practical like a defender/ land cruiser.

it mentioned in an article the other day that he has been approached with a few viable sites/ plants for manufacture. having previously worked at one of the ineos sites- he's a very ruthless business man, that's in projects to make money! he must think there is a market there, he definitely has a few of his closest/senior team working on this project. Once the cash from all his fracking licenses start rolling in, he needs something to spend the cash on, he already has the private jet, the massive yacht, the ski hotel in the alps..... just needs his own car company now.......

heemoth

6 posts

187 months

Wednesday 20th September 2017
quotequote all
In my opinion they should take on the ethos of the Defender (simple construction that can be fixed with basic tools, basic interior that can be hosed out without damaging stuff, world class off road ability) and thoroughly update it with 21st century design chops for stuff like packaging the occupants, making it cheap and most importantly reliable. That would be a simple car that could be sold around the world, not unlike the original concept for what became the Defender if I remember correctly?

What I suspect will happen (if anything) is a £100k underdeveloped pastiche of a defender which no-one in their right mind would buy over say a Range Rover for the same money. Kind of like an LM002. Hang on, that would be cool! Do it! Best of luck to them...

jwwbowe

571 posts

171 months

Wednesday 20th September 2017
quotequote all
Good luck to him, but I expect this will quietly die a death and disappear off the radar in the next 12 months. Crash regs and costs will see to that (even for a giant like Ineos someone holding the purse strings will be there to kill it). If it did get to a production ready state no one is going to pay what they'll have to price it at (unless they sell it at a loss!). Buyers for ultimate Land Rover Defenders want exactly that i.e. a iconic Land Rover Defender with some shiny bits on it, and there is still plenty of companies Bowler, Zulu, Twisted and Kahn (if your occupation is premier league football) that are doing ok despite the demise of Defender production. A new brand is not going to have pull on these people. Now he could go the other way and market the utility vehicle at the original buyer of a Defender, i.e. Farmers, country folk and those who need a utilitarian off roader. But how many of them are going to be willing to part with serious cash for a un-proved off roader made by a automotive start up firm?

I think Land Rover themselves are a crossroads with it. Personally I think they should bite the bullet and build something agricultural that doesn't rely on complex electronics to get it through the rough stuff and doesn't make them a huge profit. They'll get sooo much bad press from the motoring community about "going away from their roots" etc (you could write the average motoring hack's cliche filled report now) that people will be swayed by it and it might damage the brand's overall sales. If they do go this route (I hope they do) then we're likely to see something more truck like, think Navara, Amrok etc. Isuzu is doing a good trade with farmers that used to buy Defenders for commercial purpose. There is a market here to at both ends of the spectrum as Mercedes is now looking to bring us a expensive luxury truck, so I would imagine Land Rover would go this path with commercial all the way through to XS or HSE trim level options. I just hope they can make a SWB one from the platform without the load bed.

ivantate

166 posts

167 months

Wednesday 20th September 2017
quotequote all
Iveco bought Santana. It wasn't a success....

Not sure why as the Italian home market like Landrovers and more rugged/simple products.

V10 SPM

562 posts

250 months

Wednesday 20th September 2017
quotequote all
Something like this would be a much more interesting proposition:



http://www.bollingermotors.com

Beefmeister

16,482 posts

229 months

Thursday 21st September 2017
quotequote all
V10 SPM said:
Something like this would be a much more interesting proposition:



http://www.bollingermotors.com
Weird thing, that. Great in concept but the entire design appears compromised to allow it to be able to carry long bits of wood through the middle. It's like they had that idea, then designed a vehicle around it, which is stupid.

V10 SPM

562 posts

250 months

Thursday 21st September 2017
quotequote all
The INEOS website says "INEOS is looking for a site capable of producing at least 25,000 cars a year...". That seems like a big number of customers to find year after year for a niche product of a style that Land Rover, Santana, Iveco, etc couldn't justify continuing in production.