Premium Brands - Have Others Caught Up?
Discussion
JamesRR said:
Possibly an unusual opinion this, but I actually think the prevalence of touch screens is contributing towards the lessened perceived difference in quality between premium and mainstream interiors. All touch screens pretty much look the same, whereas with analogue switchgear you were able to get a tactile feel for quality.
I'd also agree to an extent with those who have said it's a spec dependent issue - sit in an ES spec E90 and then an M-Sport for example and the difference is alarming. The ES has the most awful brittle plastic heater controls, for example.
Both very valid points. Touchscreens are pet hate of mine, always think they cheapen the car. But you are especially right about analogue switchgear being a huge differentiator. I remember how sold 1980's Merc switchgear was, the most basic of switches felt like they needed both hands to toggle.I'd also agree to an extent with those who have said it's a spec dependent issue - sit in an ES spec E90 and then an M-Sport for example and the difference is alarming. The ES has the most awful brittle plastic heater controls, for example.
Id say the so called non premium brands have caught up . No one makes a bad car anymore its down to personal choice
. I think Exterior styling looks far nicer on many Japanese and French models, equipment levels and driving experience can be better I'e the Focus has always been a fine drivers car better than Mercs and Audis .
The older BMWs, Mercedes, Jaguars Audis etc Pre 2000 are far more premium in my view as they were not as common due to having no low end models like the 1 series, XE, A1 etc .
The marketing technique to expand the ranges of premium brands so every sector is covered and now sell in their droves, resale values kept high and still get classed in many peoples eyes as prestige even if they are everywhere . The marketing of these brands is pure genius , common as muck but viewed as a prestige car .
. I think Exterior styling looks far nicer on many Japanese and French models, equipment levels and driving experience can be better I'e the Focus has always been a fine drivers car better than Mercs and Audis .
The older BMWs, Mercedes, Jaguars Audis etc Pre 2000 are far more premium in my view as they were not as common due to having no low end models like the 1 series, XE, A1 etc .
The marketing technique to expand the ranges of premium brands so every sector is covered and now sell in their droves, resale values kept high and still get classed in many peoples eyes as prestige even if they are everywhere . The marketing of these brands is pure genius , common as muck but viewed as a prestige car .
captain_cynic said:
Sit in a high end Honda, then go back to a rep-mobile 118d. The Honda will be far better. Sit in a retirement spec Jizz, then go to a fully optioned M car, the BMW will be the clear winner.
"A high end Honda" - there isn't any such thing, is there? Assume you're in the UK.I must be a bit unusual in how I select cars, if it does not feel good to drive it does not matter how many soft touch, heated, ipod docking, voice activated, leather trimmed cup holders it has it does not even get short listed.
By the time I add practical and economic considerations I'm usually down to a shortlist of zero so one of those has to give a bit.
By the time I add practical and economic considerations I'm usually down to a shortlist of zero so one of those has to give a bit.
RenesisEvo said:
Sheepshanks said:
"A high end Honda" - there isn't any such thing, is there? Assume you're in the UK.
There was the Honda Legend, (sadly) no longer available.
Agreed.To be honest, aside from maybe a top-spec CR-V therereally isn't any such thing anymore. Which is damning them with faint praise.
10 years ago you had the Legend (very good car, no diesel engine so a minor player in Europe), the Accord Type S (another very good car, also hamstrung by the lack of a decent diesel engine when the market was dominated by them), the NSX was only just out of production and the S2000 was approaching run-down. Honda COULD have pushed Acura into Europe quite easily, following Lexus' lead.
Instead, when the global economy crashed they panicked, canned the V10 NSX Mk2, scaled down on facelift and new-model release and concentrated on what they perceived as the 'safe' core business - middle-of-the-road white goods. And in Europe they've never recovered...
Trif said:
It's also a shame they no longer offer their 3ltr straight 6 NA engines as well. They were perfect.
I think this must be a pistonheads thing, and I've just got rid of an E90 330i after nearly four years and for me the 3ltr straight 6 N/A engine isn't really all that, granted it's smooth but it's thirsty for the performance it offers, it's incredibly muted and needs plenty of revs to offer any meaningful performance.With regards to interiors they don't come much more bland than the E90 3 series...although they do drive nice though for sure.
fatjon said:
BMW is only a premium brand in the UK and USA because it's marketed that way. In Germany it's just about as premium as buying a Ford would be in the UK.
Top end Audis and Mercedes are the premium brands over there. The boss will,be in one these, the middle manager will be in a 5 or 7 series and the shop floor in a bottom feeding 1-4 series. I think in terms of build quality the upmarket Mercedes, Hondas and Audis are a way ahead of BMW. If you care about cool then it has to be Merc or Audi but if you want that level of quality but cool is less important look at the high end Hondas.Toyota make some very nice motors
lol that's funny!Top end Audis and Mercedes are the premium brands over there. The boss will,be in one these, the middle manager will be in a 5 or 7 series and the shop floor in a bottom feeding 1-4 series. I think in terms of build quality the upmarket Mercedes, Hondas and Audis are a way ahead of BMW. If you care about cool then it has to be Merc or Audi but if you want that level of quality but cool is less important look at the high end Hondas.Toyota make some very nice motors
havoc said:
RenesisEvo said:
Sheepshanks said:
"A high end Honda" - there isn't any such thing, is there? Assume you're in the UK.
There was the Honda Legend, (sadly) no longer available. Agreed.To be honest, aside from maybe a top-spec CR-V therereally isn't any such thing anymore. Which is damning them with faint praise.
10 years ago you had the Legend (very good car, no diesel engine so a minor player in Europe), the Accord Type S (another very good car, also hamstrung by the lack of a decent diesel engine when the market was dominated by them), the NSX was only just out of production and the S2000 was approaching run-down. Honda COULD have pushed Acura into Europe quite easily, following Lexus' lead.
Instead, when the global economy crashed they panicked, canned the V10 NSX Mk2, scaled down on facelift and new-model release and concentrated on what they perceived as the 'safe' core business - middle-of-the-road white goods. And in Europe they've never recovered...
I am becoming to hate fancy branding. I wish people would look at products on their relative and tangible merits, not what a marketing man told you. Cars, clothes, phones, f
king spanners, trainers, coffee, all bought on branding. I drove my boss (well he's not any more, it's complex) in his Cayenne last year. It was a comfy cruiser, but had a (cramped) cabin full of flim flam. As far as I am concerned there are countless objectively better cars and they would cost less too, but wouldn't have badge kudos.
Ares said:
clarkeysntfc said:
I am running around in a Honda Civic (17 plate) on hire from Hertz at the moment. Whilst it feels screwed together OK, the quality of the plastics in key touch-points of the cabin leaves an awful lot to be desired, and frankly much of it feels plain tinny.
Right there is the key difference.ks about "key touch points" in my car. That doesn't not make a quality product. What I do care about is that the car does what it was designed to do. My Honda is now 6 years old and does a lot of short trips. Nothing and I repeat nothing has gone wrong with it. It's not fast, it's not a babe magnet or a track day scalpel, it just works. We had a G reg Hilux that the gypos nicked, it had a cheap feeling plastic interior, but you take that down the road and switch the radio off and you couldn't hear a single rattle. Ares said:
I've not driven the brand new Insignia, but the last model and the latest Mondeo (the mondeo is a lot better), are still behind the BMW/Audi/et al. IMO/IME
Sit in - materials, seating position, seats, interior design (although granted, design is subjective), weight of switch gear.
Drive - Weight of steering, body control, refinement, engine responsiveness, feel, driver confidence, feeling of solidity.
Not disagreeing with you and I'd probably come to the same conclusion myself; however my issue is, that there doesn't seem to be any quantifiable measure for what makes something 'premium'.Sit in - materials, seating position, seats, interior design (although granted, design is subjective), weight of switch gear.
Drive - Weight of steering, body control, refinement, engine responsiveness, feel, driver confidence, feeling of solidity.
If there were figures for smoothness, comfort, durability of materials, noise, vibration, harshness, ease of operation then you could objectively compare one car to another; until that exists and is readily available then ones perception of premium is coloured by the users expectations and external influences (like marketing). It's all a bit subjective.
Well, that's how I see it anyway.
After a career change I have handed back my 17 plate 320D ED plus Estate. Really disappointed with it whilst I had it. Engine superb, super handling for an estate, over 50 mpg but the interior was really disappointing, leather felt really cheap, no lumbar support adjustment, no illumination on mirror on sun visor, no map pockets on seats,ridiculously the mirrors were not heated and the steering wheel was really skinny and felt cheap. I get that this is a car built for tax savings on the company car tax but it is still around £34,000 list and a 40% tax payer will be paying around £250 in income tax for what inside is a very average car .
I am now sourcing my own car and 3 series BMW's are certainly not on my wish list.
I am now sourcing my own car and 3 series BMW's are certainly not on my wish list.
nobby c said:
After a career change I have handed back my 17 plate 320D ED plus Estate. Really disappointed with it whilst I had it. Engine superb, super handling for an estate, over 50 mpg but the interior was really disappointing, leather felt really cheap, no lumbar support adjustment, no illumination on mirror on sun visor, no map pockets on seats,ridiculously the mirrors were not heated and the steering wheel was really skinny and felt cheap. I get that this is a car built for tax savings on the company car tax but it is still around £34,000 list and a 40% tax payer will be paying around £250 in income tax for what inside is a very average car .
I am now sourcing my own car and 3 series BMW's are certainly not on my wish list.
Sounds like a base spec car.I am now sourcing my own car and 3 series BMW's are certainly not on my wish list.
jhonn said:
Ares said:
I've not driven the brand new Insignia, but the last model and the latest Mondeo (the mondeo is a lot better), are still behind the BMW/Audi/et al. IMO/IME
Sit in - materials, seating position, seats, interior design (although granted, design is subjective), weight of switch gear.
Drive - Weight of steering, body control, refinement, engine responsiveness, feel, driver confidence, feeling of solidity.
Not disagreeing with you and I'd probably come to the same conclusion myself; however my issue is, that there doesn't seem to be any quantifiable measure for what makes something 'premium'.Sit in - materials, seating position, seats, interior design (although granted, design is subjective), weight of switch gear.
Drive - Weight of steering, body control, refinement, engine responsiveness, feel, driver confidence, feeling of solidity.
If there were figures for smoothness, comfort, durability of materials, noise, vibration, harshness, ease of operation then you could objectively compare one car to another; until that exists and is readily available then ones perception of premium is coloured by the users expectations and external influences (like marketing). It's all a bit subjective.
Well, that's how I see it anyway.
tbox will think a Ford is premium. The guys driving a Bentley won't agree.When I was at Goodwood one minute I was sitting in the new Insignia Tourer and then 5 minutes in a Audi Q5 and the insignia felt just as good on the inside as the Audi and was a much better looker. Where the "premium" brands really do excel is in their drive train R&D. BMW you can get really nice 6 cylinder engines for example whereas the Vauxhall will mostly be 4 cylinder that are adequate. This goes out the window though when 99% of BMW's are low end 4 cylinder jobs.
To go real premium today you need to be looking at S Classes and 7 Series. 5/E Class minimum.
To go real premium today you need to be looking at S Classes and 7 Series. 5/E Class minimum.
Edited by BricktopST205 on Thursday 21st September 09:47
? Still, I see your point !I've developed a habit of peeking the windows of new 3-series when I walk past them on the road. I reckon that 95% of them are base model, entry engines with no options whatsoever. I guess that's what people are after when they want a BMW but are....financially limited.
Having bought a used car recently I ended up with an Octavia, which at 2/3 the cost of the entry level 3 series is a much nicer car I thought. Sitting in the BMW was a revelation - it felt even cheaper than it looked!
If you pay your money and get the appropriate spec then they're fantastic, but that's a lot of money. Given modern manufacturing and shared components etc, the difference their entry level stuff and that of Ford/VW etc isn't much at all.
Having bought a used car recently I ended up with an Octavia, which at 2/3 the cost of the entry level 3 series is a much nicer car I thought. Sitting in the BMW was a revelation - it felt even cheaper than it looked!
If you pay your money and get the appropriate spec then they're fantastic, but that's a lot of money. Given modern manufacturing and shared components etc, the difference their entry level stuff and that of Ford/VW etc isn't much at all.
ThatGuyWhoDoesStuff said:
I've developed a habit of peeking the windows of new 3-series when I walk past them on the road. I reckon that 95% of them are base model, entry engines with no options whatsoever. I guess that's what people are after when they want a BMW but are....financially limited.
They wont be base model stuff though - a 320d M Sport is positively mid-range - with the 316d and 318d beneath it.I just had a quick look there at my nearest dealers stock - Williams BMW Manchester, 33 3 series, and only one 316d. Mostly 320ds, 330ds, 335ds, 330es in Sport and M Sport spec with leather.
ThatGuyWhoDoesStuff said:
Having bought a used car recently I ended up with an Octavia, which at 2/3 the cost of the entry level 3 series is a much nicer car I thought. Sitting in the BMW was a revelation - it felt even cheaper than it looked!
If you pay your money and get the appropriate spec then they're fantastic, but that's a lot of money. Given modern manufacturing and shared components etc, the difference their entry level stuff and that of Ford/VW etc isn't much at all.
Agreed RE: the pricing. You can get a palatable non "premium" brand for 2/3 the price.If you pay your money and get the appropriate spec then they're fantastic, but that's a lot of money. Given modern manufacturing and shared components etc, the difference their entry level stuff and that of Ford/VW etc isn't much at all.
And likewise these days you do have to spend a fortune on a BMW to get something you'd really want.
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