Should we be getting behind Brexit by boycotting German cars

Should we be getting behind Brexit by boycotting German cars

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Discussion

AppleJuice

2,154 posts

84 months

Thursday 19th October 2017
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I see...!

996TT02

3,308 posts

139 months

Thursday 19th October 2017
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smifffymoto said:
996TT02 said:
jsf said:
Here we are still trying to quantify last years referendum.

The same old tired arguments about people not knowing what they were voting on, that leave voters didn't know their arse from their elbow, that the only progressive way forward for the world was more EU.............

That vote is done, we are leaving the EU in March 2019, it would be far more constructive to talk about what the future brings and how to read the politics of the now than continuously tell everyone your view on a vote that is history.

Can we please move the debate on?
Typical. The effects of Brexit have not really started and the best way to deal with an inconvenient truth that it is slowly sinking in, that it is the stupidest thing since Boris, that most Leavers were taken for a ride but can't admit it, is to "move the debate on".

Unfortunately moving the debate on or otherwise, will do f-a to the fact that everyone in the UK is going to suffer in due course. Leavers particularly, because the areas with a majority of Leavers are those that have the greatest dependency on the benefits of the EU.

But, Daily Mail.
The trouble with stateing doom and gloom is, that you also have no idea how much you will benefit or suffer from continued EU membership.
If you do however know,please tell everybody because it would cut down on the endless brexit bickering.
What logic (not). So, before you jump off a bridge, you debate whether staying on it has benefits.

Another way of dismissing the inconvenient and embarrassing truth, by portraying it as "doom and gloom". Yes, jumping off a bridge generally does not have positive consequences, I have no problem with forecasting "doom and gloom" to anyone inclined to give it a try. "Experts" - those people who are forecasting "doom and gloom" because perhaps they are the people who can understand the consequences - inconvenient people, so dismiss them too.

You know, all those smart people who actually understand how economies function, and don't reference the Daily Mail.

Mr Tidy

22,065 posts

126 months

Friday 20th October 2017
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996TT02 said:
You know, all those smart people who actually understand how economies function, and don't reference the Daily Mail.
They must be the ones on the BBC who read the Guardian then - about as smart as a "Smart" motorway IME! banghead

I like BMWs - but thankfully my Z4 was built in Spartanburg so isn't German at all! laugh



TooMany2cvs

29,008 posts

125 months

Friday 20th October 2017
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RobM77 said:
Until I can afford that new Toyota van...
Would that be the French-built, French-designed, PSA-joint-venture, PSA-platform, PSA-Ford-joint-venture-engine ProAce?

RobM77

35,349 posts

233 months

Friday 20th October 2017
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TooMany2cvs said:
RobM77 said:
Until I can afford that new Toyota van...
Would that be the French-built, French-designed, PSA-joint-venture, PSA-platform, PSA-Ford-joint-venture-engine ProAce?
You really need to read the rest of my post biggrinbiggrin

nickfrog

20,874 posts

216 months

Friday 20th October 2017
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anonymous said:
[redacted]
Indeed. Bearing in mind that one of the other "indicators", the FTSE, had done very well on the back of the weak sterling, and that, ironically, that has probably benefited the remainers more than the leavers (based on the correlation between education levels and vote that you documented). And meanwhile the same weak sterling is punishing the leavers more (again, based on the stuff you showed).

So it is a double economic whammy for the leavers, demonstrating their tendency for reactionary/ideological voting and lack of critical thinking.

swisstoni

16,855 posts

278 months

Friday 20th October 2017
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Why are the EU making it so difficult for the UK to leave?
There is nothing to be gained by the UK dragging it out.

kambites

67,462 posts

220 months

Friday 20th October 2017
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swisstoni said:
Why are the EU making it so difficult for the UK to leave?
There is nothing to be gained by the UK dragging it out.
They're not are they? The UK is leaving whatever happens with the negotiations.

RobM77

35,349 posts

233 months

Friday 20th October 2017
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swisstoni said:
Why are the EU making it so difficult for the UK to leave?
There is nothing to be gained by the UK dragging it out.
They're not as far as I know, we're just being unreasonable with our demands as far as I can tell, not to mention unfairly immoral towards EU citizens living in the UK and UK citizens living in the UK by delaying a decision on their fate.

Toltec

7,159 posts

222 months

Friday 20th October 2017
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swisstoni said:
Why are the EU making it so difficult for the UK to leave?
There is nothing to be gained by the UK dragging it out.
It sends a message to any other country thinking about leaving, but ironically proves leaving is the right thing to do.



swisstoni

16,855 posts

278 months

Friday 20th October 2017
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Aren’t the EU also asking for the leaving ‘bill’ to be decided before any further negotiations?
Doesn’t sound like they are fretting about nationals above all else either.

kambites

67,462 posts

220 months

Friday 20th October 2017
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swisstoni said:
Aren’t the EU also asking for the leaving ‘bill’ to be decided before any further negotiations?
They are saying, quite reasonably I think, that the terms of the UK leaving the EU need to be finalised before a future trade agreement can be negotiated.

nickfrog

20,874 posts

216 months

Friday 20th October 2017
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Toltec said:
It sends a message to any other country thinking about leaving, but ironically proves leaving is the right thing to do.
It really doesn't prove anything.

swisstoni

16,855 posts

278 months

Friday 20th October 2017
quotequote all
kambites said:
swisstoni said:
Aren’t the EU also asking for the leaving ‘bill’ to be decided before any further negotiations?
They are saying, quite reasonably I think, that the terms of the UK leaving the EU need to be finalised before a future trade agreement can be negotiated.
But what about all the nationals that are being used as pawns that were so important 5 mins ago?


Edited by swisstoni on Friday 20th October 11:41

Toltec

7,159 posts

222 months

Friday 20th October 2017
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anonymous said:
[redacted]
I agree, they should have at least said they would get full rights under UK laws, of course the EU failed to take the upper ground by promising the same.

Demanding that we agree to what they want before negotiating what the UK gets is not exactly reasonable. Requiring the invoice is paid in full before detailing the services to be delivered is pretty petulant.

kambites

67,462 posts

220 months

Friday 20th October 2017
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Toltec said:
Requiring the invoice is paid in full before detailing the services to be delivered is pretty petulant.
But that's not what they're doing. They're demanding that we state whether we're going to honour an agreement we've already signed up to before they negotiate a future agreements with us. Would you, as an individual, company, country, whatever, be willing to negotiate a new deal with someone else who is dithering about whether they're willing to fulfill the terms of the last agreement they entered with you?

Of course whether the UK is strictly legally bound by the agreements made with the EU while it was a member after it has left is arguable (the main consensus seems to be that it is not) but it's also largely irrelevant. It's a question of trust.

Personally I think the EU, for all its faults, is being astonishingly patient with the UK at the moment.

Edited by kambites on Friday 20th October 11:45

swisstoni

16,855 posts

278 months

Friday 20th October 2017
quotequote all
kambites said:
Toltec said:
Requiring the invoice is paid in full before detailing the services to be delivered is pretty petulant.
But that's not what they're doing. They're demanding that we state whether we're going to honour an agreement we've already signed up to before they negotiate a future agreements with us. Would you, as an individual, company, country, whatever, be willing to negotiate a new deal with someone else who is dithering about whether they're willing to fulfill the terms of the last agreement they entered with you?
What's the bill them? How much?

kambites

67,462 posts

220 months

Friday 20th October 2017
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swisstoni said:
What's the bill them? How much?
I don't know because oddly enough I don't have the EU's budget to hand. I know that there was a budget signed off by all of the member states though, including the UK.

And calling it a "bill" is in itself misleading - it's not a payment for services rendered, it's an agreed payment under a (theoretically) mutually beneficial multilateral agreement.

ETA: Personally I think the obvious solution would be to agree for the UK to remain an EU member until the end of this EU budget cycle. That way the new budget can be negotiated entirely without the UK and no-one is left feeling out of pocket, rather than us attempting to negotiate a trade agreement having just dumped the EU's finances into a mess by refusing to pay what we'd promised for this budget cycle.

Edited by kambites on Friday 20th October 11:53

TooMany2cvs

29,008 posts

125 months

Friday 20th October 2017
quotequote all
The "bill" is the future payments for long-term commitments already made. This should not be contentious in any way.

The other thing that the EU is insisting on before going on to trade negotiations is the status of nationals of other EU countries within the UK. Again, this should not be contentious - especially after yesterday's "open letter" from May.
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/pms-open-letter...

These have to be addressed. I can't see what there is to gain by addressing them later, rather than first. It really smacks of sheer "But I don't want to do it that way, because you suggested it" petulance.

swisstoni

16,855 posts

278 months

Friday 20th October 2017
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anonymous said:
[redacted]
How much is it though?