RE: Prior Convictions: the disappearing manual M-car
Discussion
turbobungle said:
New, yes. Warranty, yes. Mainstream, not necessarily.
If we want to start talking about old sports saloons (Sapphire Cosworth, 190e, E28, E34, E39 M5's, E36, E90 M3's, Lotus Carlton, Audi RS4 to name a few), its a completely different subject and most were manual anyway.
I'm still up for hearing about all the options for current sports saloons with a manual 'box other than an M3, though?
Options will be based on array of criteria. As said above to Rob. If your requirement is a manual BMW with a boot lid and not a hatch. Then you will have no options most likely. If we want to start talking about old sports saloons (Sapphire Cosworth, 190e, E28, E34, E39 M5's, E36, E90 M3's, Lotus Carlton, Audi RS4 to name a few), its a completely different subject and most were manual anyway.
I'm still up for hearing about all the options for current sports saloons with a manual 'box other than an M3, though?
If you spec your requirements more along the lines of:
-number of seats
-intended use
-boot size/shape ie your hauling requirements
Plus many other attributes. You may find there are options that could suit or be an alternative. Even if they are not 100% the same identical spec as your dream BMW build.
The manual sports saloon offerings from BMW, Merc et al might be diminishing if you want manual and rwd. But it doesn’t mean there aren’t other manual gearbox alternatives.
If we define the current M3 as a mid sized 4 door family car that is fast and fun to drive.
Then an obvious alternative (although not only alternative) could be the current Impreza WRX STI. It too is a fast and fun mid sized family car. And can be had with a manual gearbox.
300bhp/ton said:
turbobungle said:
New, yes. Warranty, yes. Mainstream, not necessarily.
If we want to start talking about old sports saloons (Sapphire Cosworth, 190e, E28, E34, E39 M5's, E36, E90 M3's, Lotus Carlton, Audi RS4 to name a few), its a completely different subject and most were manual anyway.
I'm still up for hearing about all the options for current sports saloons with a manual 'box other than an M3, though?
Options will be based on array of criteria. As said above to Rob. If your requirement is a manual BMW with a boot lid and not a hatch. Then you will have no options most likely. If we want to start talking about old sports saloons (Sapphire Cosworth, 190e, E28, E34, E39 M5's, E36, E90 M3's, Lotus Carlton, Audi RS4 to name a few), its a completely different subject and most were manual anyway.
I'm still up for hearing about all the options for current sports saloons with a manual 'box other than an M3, though?
If you spec your requirements more along the lines of:
-number of seats
-intended use
-boot size/shape ie your hauling requirements
Plus many other attributes. You may find there are options that could suit or be an alternative. Even if they are not 100% the same identical spec as your dream BMW build.
The manual sports saloon offerings from BMW, Merc et al might be diminishing if you want manual and rwd. But it doesn’t mean there aren’t other manual gearbox alternatives.
If we define the current M3 as a mid sized 4 door family car that is fast and fun to drive.
Then an obvious alternative (although not only alternative) could be the current Impreza WRX STI. It too is a fast and fun mid sized family car. And can be had with a manual gearbox.
300bhp/ton said:
GT119 said:
I think there is an elephant in the room.
M-cars of the future will either be hybrid or fully electric.
Multi-ratio gearboxes of any kind are ultimately a means to an end, but add cost, complexity, size and weight, usually at a position in the car that is 'prime real estate'.
In my opinion they will be avoided in favour of higher torque electric propulsion motor/s.
How soon that happens to M I'm not sure, my guess would be 10 years maximum before there are no multi-ratio gearboxes in any M-cars.
You can still have a gearbox with an electric motor and it will offers the same benfits. M-cars of the future will either be hybrid or fully electric.
Multi-ratio gearboxes of any kind are ultimately a means to an end, but add cost, complexity, size and weight, usually at a position in the car that is 'prime real estate'.
In my opinion they will be avoided in favour of higher torque electric propulsion motor/s.
How soon that happens to M I'm not sure, my guess would be 10 years maximum before there are no multi-ratio gearboxes in any M-cars.
That's before you even consider that there is the inherent opportunity in an EV to drive both axles with either a pair of motors or even one for each wheel, but without the need for a prop-shaft running the length of the car.
Edited by GT119 on Monday 23 October 14:39
Edited by GT119 on Monday 23 October 14:39
RobM77 said:
And that's the difference; that's not my definition. I couldn't care less how fast a car is, I want rear drive (which rules out the Impreza), a reasonable weight (the Impreza is a bit porky), low CofG and a manual gearbox. I'd like that along with the practicality to tow my racing car and carrying bikes and boards. The options available to me under £10k are vanishingly small, and I suspect this mirrors over to the £50k buyer as well.
But Rob you are a blatant BMW fanboy. Which is why I refused to name cars to you earlier. Essentially your whole argument is it isn’t a BMW. For the record the Subaru has DCCD which will make it more rwd biased if you want. And I can’t see how it doesn’t meet your other criteria.
And if the choice becomes RWD with an auto or AWD with a manual. Neither are perfect choices. If you want the manual there is still an option. Which was my entire point.
As for sub £10k offerings. Friggin loads of choice as most of the cars you liked in the past probably fall into this price range as a used car.
And I’m really not sure an M4 is significantly lighter or lower COG
GT119 said:
Whilst I agree that some manufacturers may use a fixed ratio final drive on an electric motor, the concept of adding a multi-ratio gearbox is totally unnecessary and seems to me to be quite flawed. The only benefit would be to marginally reduce the size of the electric motor/s, but given the motors are so compact and light anyway, i.e. already smaller than the comparable gearbox, even if you could reduce the size and weight to nothing, you are still worse off.
That's before you even consider that there is the inherent opportunity in an EV to drive both axles with either a pair of motors or even one for each wheel, but without the need for a prop-shaft running the length of the car.
As stated. A gearbox will offer the same advantages. Being a broader speed range and improved efficiency at either end of rpm spectrum. That's before you even consider that there is the inherent opportunity in an EV to drive both axles with either a pair of motors or even one for each wheel, but without the need for a prop-shaft running the length of the car.
Edited by GT119 on Monday 23 October 14:39
Edited by GT119 on Monday 23 October 14:39
They may also offer less current draw for given activities and reduce electric motor noise and wear rates.
A gearbox may not be completely necessary but there are still positives to using them.
As for motor location. It would depend on the type, size and weight. But you probably don’t want them as unsprung weight. So remote mounting them may make more sense.
I could have been sensible. I could have opted for the Mondeo 2.0 EcoBoost in Mk 4.5 Titanium X Sport guise... I could have been stuck with the Powershift automatic... But I didn't. I suffered the horrendous mpg of the 2.5T in a heavy boat, but dammit was I rewarded.
It may be a big ole cruiser barge but when you want to you can hear that lovely turboed I5 roar, and the satisfaction of a 6-Speed Manual is hard to beat.
Plus I like the red stitching around the gaiter
It may be a big ole cruiser barge but when you want to you can hear that lovely turboed I5 roar, and the satisfaction of a 6-Speed Manual is hard to beat.
Plus I like the red stitching around the gaiter
300bhp/ton said:
RobM77 said:
And that's the difference; that's not my definition. I couldn't care less how fast a car is, I want rear drive (which rules out the Impreza), a reasonable weight (the Impreza is a bit porky), low CofG and a manual gearbox. I'd like that along with the practicality to tow my racing car and carrying bikes and boards. The options available to me under £10k are vanishingly small, and I suspect this mirrors over to the £50k buyer as well.
But Rob you are a blatant BMW fanboy. Which is why I refused to name cars to you earlier. Essentially your whole argument is it isn’t a BMW. The reason I've had so many BMWs as daily drivers is simply that there's no other alternative for my criteria, which is the very point I'm making (and you're not getting - the Scooby is 4WD!!!). Furthermore, I'm not the only one - several of my friends and one family member have owned a string of BMWs because their criteria are the same as mine and they can't find what they want in other cars. Wanting rear drive and a manual gearbox with a low CofG and relatively light weight are not exactly unusual requirements; they cover virtually all sports cars for starters (imagine an automatic MX5 - yuk! Or a tall one with FWD or 4WD..). The difficulty is when you want that in your daily driver with practicality to carry and tow stuff.
Edited by RobM77 on Monday 23 October 20:27
300bhp/ton said:
GT119 said:
Whilst I agree that some manufacturers may use a fixed ratio final drive on an electric motor, the concept of adding a multi-ratio gearbox is totally unnecessary and seems to me to be quite flawed. The only benefit would be to marginally reduce the size of the electric motor/s, but given the motors are so compact and light anyway, i.e. already smaller than the comparable gearbox, even if you could reduce the size and weight to nothing, you are still worse off.
That's before you even consider that there is the inherent opportunity in an EV to drive both axles with either a pair of motors or even one for each wheel, but without the need for a prop-shaft running the length of the car.
As stated. A gearbox will offer the same advantages. Being a broader speed range and improved efficiency at either end of rpm spectrum. That's before you even consider that there is the inherent opportunity in an EV to drive both axles with either a pair of motors or even one for each wheel, but without the need for a prop-shaft running the length of the car.
Edited by GT119 on Monday 23 October 14:39
Edited by GT119 on Monday 23 October 14:39
They may also offer less current draw for given activities and reduce electric motor noise and wear rates.
A gearbox may not be completely necessary but there are still positives to using them.
As for motor location. It would depend on the type, size and weight. But you probably don’t want them as unsprung weight. So remote mounting them may make more sense.
I think this argument is borne out if here are no multi-ratio gearboxes in a Tesla, Soul, Leaf, Zoe, I-Pace, etc.
Hybrids are slightly different, and in the case of the BMW i8 there is a two-speed auto on the motor and a six-speed auto on the engine.
The i8 is a transitional design and the architecture of future BMW hybrid performance cars will simplify in my opinion.
Anyway my point is that it seems highly improbable that you would ever see a manual gearbox in a hybrid or EV M-car.
As someone who recently bought an M4 and had this auto/manual dilemma I can honestly say I'm not regretting buying the DCT one little bit. It really is a great box in both auto and manual mode.
I think its key the choice should still be there for future models though. Both iterations have there pros and cons, neither make anyone better or lesser.
Ultimately with the M4 the figures speak for themselves, everyone has the choice when they order their car.
I think its key the choice should still be there for future models though. Both iterations have there pros and cons, neither make anyone better or lesser.
Ultimately with the M4 the figures speak for themselves, everyone has the choice when they order their car.
RobM77 said:
Rubbish. I'm a fan of the layout for my daily driver, but not the manufacturer; in fact I'm not really interested in who designs and makes my cars, as long as they do what I want them to. I'd actually far rather not drive a BMW so I could pay less secondhand to buy the car, pay less for parts, probably less for insurance and also get less road rage and underhand comments from people in the UK (not sure if you're UK based, but most people here hate BMWs). Surely you've read my constant rants over the years about BMW's incompetence with their petrol engines and DBW throttle? Not exactly the words of a fanboy. If I was a fan boy then I'd have recommended a BMW to my wife (she drives a Honda, and had a Ford before that) and I'd race one (I've raced 6 cars, none of them BMW...), or have one as a weekend/project car (again, never had one as that either). You'd also find me recommending them constantly on What Car threads, which I don't.
The reason I've had so many BMWs as daily drivers is simply that there's no other alternative for my criteria, which is the very point I'm making. Furthermore, I'm not the only one - several of my friends and one family member have owned a string of BMWs because their criteria are the same as mine and they can't find what they want in other cars. Wanting rear drive and a manual gearbox with a low CofG and relatively light weight are not exactly unusual requirements; they cover virtually all sports cars for starters (imagine an automatic MX5 - yuk! Or a tall one with FWD..). The difficulty is when you want that in your daily driver with practicality to carry and tow stuff.
I do miss my E30 sometimes... Only BMW I've had tbh. And the only car I've been pulled over in. Twice. For existing; nowt dodgy.The reason I've had so many BMWs as daily drivers is simply that there's no other alternative for my criteria, which is the very point I'm making. Furthermore, I'm not the only one - several of my friends and one family member have owned a string of BMWs because their criteria are the same as mine and they can't find what they want in other cars. Wanting rear drive and a manual gearbox with a low CofG and relatively light weight are not exactly unusual requirements; they cover virtually all sports cars for starters (imagine an automatic MX5 - yuk! Or a tall one with FWD..). The difficulty is when you want that in your daily driver with practicality to carry and tow stuff.
Edited by RobM77 on Monday 23 October 15:52
300bhp/ton said:
Options will be based on array of criteria. As said above to Rob. If your requirement is a manual BMW with a boot lid and not a hatch. Then you will have no options most likely.
If you spec your requirements more along the lines of:
-number of seats
-intended use
-boot size/shape ie your hauling requirements
Plus many other attributes. You may find there are options that could suit or be an alternative. Even if they are not 100% the same identical spec as your dream BMW build.
The manual sports saloon offerings from BMW, Merc et al might be diminishing if you want manual and rwd. But it doesn’t mean there aren’t other manual gearbox alternatives.
If we define the current M3 as a mid sized 4 door family car that is fast and fun to drive.
Then an obvious alternative (although not only alternative) could be the current Impreza WRX STI. It too is a fast and fun mid sized family car. And can be had with a manual gearbox.
Excellent, so you eventually came up with one of your several options and it is neither RWD or a saloon car, it's a 4WD hot hatch. Thanks for that.If you spec your requirements more along the lines of:
-number of seats
-intended use
-boot size/shape ie your hauling requirements
Plus many other attributes. You may find there are options that could suit or be an alternative. Even if they are not 100% the same identical spec as your dream BMW build.
The manual sports saloon offerings from BMW, Merc et al might be diminishing if you want manual and rwd. But it doesn’t mean there aren’t other manual gearbox alternatives.
If we define the current M3 as a mid sized 4 door family car that is fast and fun to drive.
Then an obvious alternative (although not only alternative) could be the current Impreza WRX STI. It too is a fast and fun mid sized family car. And can be had with a manual gearbox.
turbobungle said:
Excellent, so you eventually came up with one of your several options and it is neither RWD or a saloon car, it's a 4WD hot hatch. Thanks for that.
Erm, the STi is a saloon. Similar size to a 3-series, too.(Not that I'm defending 300, but in this instance he's right. Oh, and I DO see what Rob's getting at - 30 years ago you couldn't leave the house without tripping over a rwd saloon with a manual 'box and sporting intentions, now* they're about as endangered as an honest politician...)
* Y'know, when every other car is a soulless "lifestyle crossover multi-utility vehicle" with a CVT and a 'Sport Mode'.
Things are of course looking up with the Jag XE and the new Alfa, which will hit my price range in about 3-5 years. Mind you, manuals are rare. As Havoc says, this ends a significant period in time where the 3 series was pretty much unique, unless you lucked out and found a manual C Class in the spec you wanted or a rare manual IS import.
I do find this odd, as the basic 3 series formula is common in affordable sports cars (manual, rear drive, low CofG, keep the weight as low as possible). Why do manufacturers assume that as soon as we get kids or have hobbies needing bigger cars that we want some lumbering great joke of an SUV or a tall underdamped front driver?
To finish on a better note, I think it's wonderful and rather exciting that when I next change my car I might finally be able to test drive a few genuine alternatives from other manufacturers, like the XE and Alfa.
I do find this odd, as the basic 3 series formula is common in affordable sports cars (manual, rear drive, low CofG, keep the weight as low as possible). Why do manufacturers assume that as soon as we get kids or have hobbies needing bigger cars that we want some lumbering great joke of an SUV or a tall underdamped front driver?
To finish on a better note, I think it's wonderful and rather exciting that when I next change my car I might finally be able to test drive a few genuine alternatives from other manufacturers, like the XE and Alfa.
RobM77 said:
Things are of course looking up with the Jag XE and the new Alfa, which will hit my price range in about 3-5 years. Mind you, manuals are rare. As Havoc says, this ends a significant period in time where the 3 series was pretty much unique, unless you lucked out and found a manual C Class in the spec you wanted or a rare manual IS import.
I do find this odd, as the basic 3 series formula is common in affordable sports cars (manual, rear drive, low CofG, keep the weight as low as possible). Why do manufacturers assume that as soon as we get kids or have hobbies needing bigger cars that we want some lumbering great joke of an SUV or a tall underdamped front driver?
To finish on a better note, I think it's wonderful and rather exciting that when I next change my car I might finally be able to test drive a few genuine alternatives from other manufacturers, like the XE and Alfa.
XE is lovely, but only available in Manual in one Diesel format across the different spec ranges. All the petrol models have Auto only. Frustrating. Now Alfa....I do find this odd, as the basic 3 series formula is common in affordable sports cars (manual, rear drive, low CofG, keep the weight as low as possible). Why do manufacturers assume that as soon as we get kids or have hobbies needing bigger cars that we want some lumbering great joke of an SUV or a tall underdamped front driver?
To finish on a better note, I think it's wonderful and rather exciting that when I next change my car I might finally be able to test drive a few genuine alternatives from other manufacturers, like the XE and Alfa.
RobM77 said:
I do find this odd, as the basic 3 series formula is common in affordable sports cars (manual, rear drive, low CofG, keep the weight as low as possible). Why do manufacturers assume that as soon as we get kids or have hobbies needing bigger cars that we want some lumbering great joke of an SUV or a tall underdamped front driver?
Because most new car buyers do...they want the space, or the practicality, or the ride-height to 'feel safe' (hint: get some advanced lessons) - actually 'driving' is such a boring thing to have to do...And those that don't buy the carbon-copy SUV-lite tend to want something that flashes the right image or massages the ego, hence the increase in flappy-paddle gearboxes (I suspect most buyers couldn't care less if automated manual, DSG or torque-converter, as long as it makes them feel like Lewis).
I've decided - I'm going to try and stay with modern classics for as long as I can* - even my 2008 FD2 hasn't quite got enough feedback, but it's enough and it's better than anything newer this side of Lotus/Porsche.
* Work car-allowance schemes permitting.
ChiggyWiggy said:
RobM77 said:
Things are of course looking up with the Jag XE and the new Alfa, which will hit my price range in about 3-5 years. Mind you, manuals are rare. As Havoc says, this ends a significant period in time where the 3 series was pretty much unique, unless you lucked out and found a manual C Class in the spec you wanted or a rare manual IS import.
I do find this odd, as the basic 3 series formula is common in affordable sports cars (manual, rear drive, low CofG, keep the weight as low as possible). Why do manufacturers assume that as soon as we get kids or have hobbies needing bigger cars that we want some lumbering great joke of an SUV or a tall underdamped front driver?
To finish on a better note, I think it's wonderful and rather exciting that when I next change my car I might finally be able to test drive a few genuine alternatives from other manufacturers, like the XE and Alfa.
XE is lovely, but only available in Manual in one Diesel format across the different spec ranges. All the petrol models have Auto only. Frustrating. Now Alfa....I do find this odd, as the basic 3 series formula is common in affordable sports cars (manual, rear drive, low CofG, keep the weight as low as possible). Why do manufacturers assume that as soon as we get kids or have hobbies needing bigger cars that we want some lumbering great joke of an SUV or a tall underdamped front driver?
To finish on a better note, I think it's wonderful and rather exciting that when I next change my car I might finally be able to test drive a few genuine alternatives from other manufacturers, like the XE and Alfa.
havoc said:
RobM77 said:
I do find this odd, as the basic 3 series formula is common in affordable sports cars (manual, rear drive, low CofG, keep the weight as low as possible). Why do manufacturers assume that as soon as we get kids or have hobbies needing bigger cars that we want some lumbering great joke of an SUV or a tall underdamped front driver?
Because most new car buyers do...they want the space, or the practicality, or the ride-height to 'feel safe' (hint: get some advanced lessons) - actually 'driving' is such a boring thing to have to do...And those that don't buy the carbon-copy SUV-lite tend to want something that flashes the right image or massages the ego, hence the increase in flappy-paddle gearboxes (I suspect most buyers couldn't care less if automated manual, DSG or torque-converter, as long as it makes them feel like Lewis).
I've decided - I'm going to try and stay with modern classics for as long as I can* - even my 2008 FD2 hasn't quite got enough feedback, but it's enough and it's better than anything newer this side of Lotus/Porsche.
* Work car-allowance schemes permitting.
I realise this is most people, but I'm sure there are more people out there than they think who like driving.I once stayed in a beautiful creaky old B&B up near Snetterton with a team I was driving with, and we shared breakfast around a large table with a lovely couple. A short silence hit after we revealed who we were, and then the lady asked a question: "why is it that of all the cars we've owned, the BMWs drive the best?". Her husband immediately stopped chewing and listened interested as the other driver explained this was because they were a front engine rear wheel drive layout. Neither of them knew what it was about their cars that made them feel different, but they both definitely enjoyed driving them more than the others. Most people probably don't even realise the contribution CofG makes, or mass layout, but the key thing is that they're aware of enjoying themselves more - 'why' is less important. Whilst most people seem to want a Qashquai (or however you spell it), I'm sure there's room in the market for two or three cars with a FE/RWD layout and a low CofG for people like that couple in the B&B.
s m said:
ChiggyWiggy said:
RobM77 said:
Things are of course looking up with the Jag XE and the new Alfa, which will hit my price range in about 3-5 years. Mind you, manuals are rare. As Havoc says, this ends a significant period in time where the 3 series was pretty much unique, unless you lucked out and found a manual C Class in the spec you wanted or a rare manual IS import.
I do find this odd, as the basic 3 series formula is common in affordable sports cars (manual, rear drive, low CofG, keep the weight as low as possible). Why do manufacturers assume that as soon as we get kids or have hobbies needing bigger cars that we want some lumbering great joke of an SUV or a tall underdamped front driver?
To finish on a better note, I think it's wonderful and rather exciting that when I next change my car I might finally be able to test drive a few genuine alternatives from other manufacturers, like the XE and Alfa.
XE is lovely, but only available in Manual in one Diesel format across the different spec ranges. All the petrol models have Auto only. Frustrating. Now Alfa....I do find this odd, as the basic 3 series formula is common in affordable sports cars (manual, rear drive, low CofG, keep the weight as low as possible). Why do manufacturers assume that as soon as we get kids or have hobbies needing bigger cars that we want some lumbering great joke of an SUV or a tall underdamped front driver?
To finish on a better note, I think it's wonderful and rather exciting that when I next change my car I might finally be able to test drive a few genuine alternatives from other manufacturers, like the XE and Alfa.
I'm no fan of modern petrols, so the diesel thing with the XE doesn't really worry me. I would like more choice with a manual box though. I haven't looked at the Giulia yet, but may do so I know whether it's an option for me. Frequently in the past I've wanted a car, only to discover late on in my thought process that it's auto only (e.g. the Lexus IS200).
RobM77 said:
I'm sure there's room in the market for two or three cars with a FE/RWD layout and a low CofG for people like that couple in the B&B.
There is. It's just whether the mfrs see that and are willing to take the chance...after all, that layout requires a different platform to an FF car.Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff