RE: BMW M5 (E39): PH Heroes
Discussion
Mastodon2 said:
Spoken perfectly like someone who has never been in an E39. 
Agree that it makes little sense to do a performance comparo between new car and an old one..my E39 M5 was brilliant in its time and I have no doubt that it would still be a pleasure to drive. The numbers do not really matter..sort of like comparing modern Tesla against a Ferrari F40. For me, the car in its time was just about the best non supercar anywhere, and I just loved it.Depthhoar said:
PABLO:
Q-car: should do exactly what it says on the tin.
Surely the E39 M5's external design cues already differentiate it enough from the rest of the range?
If you know, you know.Q-car: should do exactly what it says on the tin.
Surely the E39 M5's external design cues already differentiate it enough from the rest of the range?
- Quad pipes*
- Front & Rear diffusers*
- Door mirrors*
- Boot spoiler*
- Staggered wheels*
PABLOESCOBAR said:
I am a designer.
They should have flared the arches on the e39 M5.
Do you work for Kahn Design?They should have flared the arches on the e39 M5.
Edited by Depthhoar on Sunday 24th December 16:57
That’s the point.
Advertising its capabilities by nailing superfluous crap to it wasn’t needed.
I was lucky enough to spend a day driving one of these a few months ago on some excellent country roads. Fell completely for it as it seemed to be the perfect blend of a back road sports car and comfy barge for the motorways for getting there and back.
However, the reality of running costs mean I just can't justify running one (right now). Shame really
However, the reality of running costs mean I just can't justify running one (right now). Shame really
Walter Sobchak said:
I nearly bought one of these a few years ago but went for the E55 AMG instead, I don’t regret my choice but do still really appreciate these.
I done the exact same thing. Everyone had M5's at the time so I thought I'd be different and pick the Merc. Hated the E55, although mine was the W210. It was very front end heavy, too smooth to feel fast and rusted like no-bodies business. Although I see from this thread the M5 was no better for rusting.I've still never owned an E39 M5 (and probably never will now) but I've had other E39's and the handling was leagues ahead of the Merc IMHO.
Dalto123 said:
I was lucky enough to spend a day driving one of these a few months ago on some excellent country roads. Fell completely for it as it seemed to be the perfect blend of a back road sports car and comfy barge for the motorways for getting there and back.
However, the reality of running costs mean I just can't justify running one (right now). Shame really
running costs - like 2 x litre of oil in 8,000 miles? or the petrol costs, which is the only realistic cost I have seen in that time? Even then it is more efficient than my RR and nearly as good as the Z3However, the reality of running costs mean I just can't justify running one (right now). Shame really
get a good one and it is not an expensive car to own and run - but fantastic fun!
Patrick Bateman said:
You sound fortunate but I would suggest it's a naive way to enter ownership if you want one to drive as they should.
Curious as to how many cars are still on original dampers etc.
Naive?! You might just be making some assumptions... Curious as to how many cars are still on original dampers etc.
I set out to buy the best example I could find in the UK and bought a collector's car which came in beautiful condition and immaculately cared for - it came with several pages of notes from his detailer on how to look after it, right down to having had brake calipers protected...
buy well and it is a very reliable car which is relatively cheap to own (just compare against porsches / ferraris!) look after it and you shouldn't have any big surprises... plus it is about understanding costs against any other car:
- new cars lose money through depreciation
- older cars either need money spending on replacing components to keep them in good shape (e.g. suspension), or when bits break
but buy an older car and look after it and if it is one like the e39 M5 that is slowly going up in value, then it can be a cost efficient car to own... it is certainly costing me a lot less than the leased octavia / kugas I owned previously...
so, yes, buy a bad one and you can have some expensive bills - but that is the same for lots of mainstream cars - but buy a good one and it is remarkably cheap for such a fantastic car, so the instinctive, lazy response folks make saying that you are likely to have expensive bills, and that they are ruinous to run is itself a rather naive response
Out of interest what did the "collector car" M5 cost?
I've always loved the M5 and the e39 was perhaps the best all rounder ever, but to get a really nice one with low miles, you can end up spending more than, say, an equivalent mileage early model F10......which obviously is in another league again for performance and IMO beautifully understated......I've seen a few F10 M5s recently and I think they're actually more understated than the previous E60..
..the one I never seem to see anymore, which I always lusted after when new was the E34 M5 3.8.....wonder what these fetch nowadays?
I've always loved the M5 and the e39 was perhaps the best all rounder ever, but to get a really nice one with low miles, you can end up spending more than, say, an equivalent mileage early model F10......which obviously is in another league again for performance and IMO beautifully understated......I've seen a few F10 M5s recently and I think they're actually more understated than the previous E60..
..the one I never seem to see anymore, which I always lusted after when new was the E34 M5 3.8.....wonder what these fetch nowadays?
akirk said:
Naive?! You might just be making some assumptions...
I set out to buy the best example I could find in the UK and bought a collector's car which came in beautiful condition and immaculately cared for - it came with several pages of notes from his detailer on how to look after it, right down to having had brake calipers protected...
buy well and it is a very reliable car which is relatively cheap to own (just compare against porsches / ferraris!) look after it and you shouldn't have any big surprises... plus it is about understanding costs against any other car:
- new cars lose money through depreciation
- older cars either need money spending on replacing components to keep them in good shape (e.g. suspension), or when bits break
but buy an older car and look after it and if it is one like the e39 M5 that is slowly going up in value, then it can be a cost efficient car to own... it is certainly costing me a lot less than the leased octavia / kugas I owned previously...
so, yes, buy a bad one and you can have some expensive bills - but that is the same for lots of mainstream cars - but buy a good one and it is remarkably cheap for such a fantastic car, so the instinctive, lazy response folks make saying that you are likely to have expensive bills, and that they are ruinous to run is itself a rather naive response
It would be more naive if I hadn't done about 40k miles in one over 3 years. I set out to buy the best example I could find in the UK and bought a collector's car which came in beautiful condition and immaculately cared for - it came with several pages of notes from his detailer on how to look after it, right down to having had brake calipers protected...
buy well and it is a very reliable car which is relatively cheap to own (just compare against porsches / ferraris!) look after it and you shouldn't have any big surprises... plus it is about understanding costs against any other car:
- new cars lose money through depreciation
- older cars either need money spending on replacing components to keep them in good shape (e.g. suspension), or when bits break
but buy an older car and look after it and if it is one like the e39 M5 that is slowly going up in value, then it can be a cost efficient car to own... it is certainly costing me a lot less than the leased octavia / kugas I owned previously...
so, yes, buy a bad one and you can have some expensive bills - but that is the same for lots of mainstream cars - but buy a good one and it is remarkably cheap for such a fantastic car, so the instinctive, lazy response folks make saying that you are likely to have expensive bills, and that they are ruinous to run is itself a rather naive response
It's fine if you can afford a car at the very top end of the going rate, how many can now? It doesn't mean cheaper cars on many more miles are bad- but with more miles comes more maintenance if you want one to still drive at their best.
I'm not necessarily talking about failures here. As an example, if cars on say 140k miles are on mostly their original ~15 year old suspension then there's no way they're driving near as good as they should.
Any M5 can throw an expensive bill. Consumables are fairly expensive before you get to any potential failures. A set of premium tyres and brakes all round will be about £1500 easily. While that's not ruinous, I wouldn't call it cheap.
I still don't get why people fawn over 5 series, even though it is an M5, so much. The interior plastics are horrible, as is the design of the dashboard. A mixture of elephants arse rubber, and tacky and fragile feeling plastic "metal" finishing strips.
Then there's the engine. Yes it sounds nice, if in a slightly muted kind of way. But..... woeful cooling issues with undersized radiators that silt up irreversibly, weak head gaskets that go at about 120k miles, hugely complex and expensive vanos units whose oil seals fail and give you a huge power dip instead of coming on cam, as well as making the engine rattle like a diesel at idle (all 3 of which of which happened to the lesser M62 version in my Range Rover), and of course the crap plastic timing chain guides that break too.
It may be a few years older, and much more rust prone, but I'll take a Lotus Carlton instead thanks.
Then there's the engine. Yes it sounds nice, if in a slightly muted kind of way. But..... woeful cooling issues with undersized radiators that silt up irreversibly, weak head gaskets that go at about 120k miles, hugely complex and expensive vanos units whose oil seals fail and give you a huge power dip instead of coming on cam, as well as making the engine rattle like a diesel at idle (all 3 of which of which happened to the lesser M62 version in my Range Rover), and of course the crap plastic timing chain guides that break too.
It may be a few years older, and much more rust prone, but I'll take a Lotus Carlton instead thanks.
Somewhere between akirk and whatever was just written above is probably more accurate.
Cooling system on the M5 is not a common weak spot, certainly not 'woeful'. Head gaskets letting go at about 120k? That's a new one to me yet you make it sound like a K series head gasket. The biggest weakness is probably the fan clutch given it'll put a dent in your bonnet and tear some hoses if it s
ts itself but replacing it before it goes is no disaster.
VANOS issues aren't what I'd call cheap but some of the stories around this are ridiculously overblown. Actual failures will be very rare and even then getting a refurbished unit fitted at a specialist like CPC isn't the end of the world.
Cooling system on the M5 is not a common weak spot, certainly not 'woeful'. Head gaskets letting go at about 120k? That's a new one to me yet you make it sound like a K series head gasket. The biggest weakness is probably the fan clutch given it'll put a dent in your bonnet and tear some hoses if it s
ts itself but replacing it before it goes is no disaster.VANOS issues aren't what I'd call cheap but some of the stories around this are ridiculously overblown. Actual failures will be very rare and even then getting a refurbished unit fitted at a specialist like CPC isn't the end of the world.
greenarrow said:
Out of interest what did the "collector car" M5 cost?
I've always loved the M5 and the e39 was perhaps the best all rounder ever, but to get a really nice one with low miles, you can end up spending more than, say, an equivalent mileage early model F10......which obviously is in another league again for performance and IMO beautifully understated......I've seen a few F10 M5s recently and I think they're actually more understated than the previous E60..
..the one I never seem to see anymore, which I always lusted after when new was the E34 M5 3.8.....wonder what these fetch nowadays?
You wouldn't get an F10 for the price, you would be in E60 territory - for me though the manual gearbox was essential, as was minimal depreciation - so best condition / value e39 was the target and fortunately I knew the previous owner and purchased it before it hit the market...I've always loved the M5 and the e39 was perhaps the best all rounder ever, but to get a really nice one with low miles, you can end up spending more than, say, an equivalent mileage early model F10......which obviously is in another league again for performance and IMO beautifully understated......I've seen a few F10 M5s recently and I think they're actually more understated than the previous E60..
..the one I never seem to see anymore, which I always lusted after when new was the E34 M5 3.8.....wonder what these fetch nowadays?
Patrick Bateman said:
It would be more naive if I hadn't done about 40k miles in one over 3 years.
It's fine if you can afford a car at the very top end of the going rate, how many can now? It doesn't mean cheaper cars on many more miles are bad- but with more miles comes more maintenance if you want one to still drive at their best.
I'm not necessarily talking about failures here. As an example, if cars on say 140k miles are on mostly their original ~15 year old suspension then there's no way they're driving near as good as they should.
Any M5 can throw an expensive bill. Consumables are fairly expensive before you get to any potential failures. A set of premium tyres and brakes all round will be about £1500 easily. While that's not ruinous, I wouldn't call it cheap.
Then you will know that they don't instantly implode the minute you look at them It's fine if you can afford a car at the very top end of the going rate, how many can now? It doesn't mean cheaper cars on many more miles are bad- but with more miles comes more maintenance if you want one to still drive at their best.
I'm not necessarily talking about failures here. As an example, if cars on say 140k miles are on mostly their original ~15 year old suspension then there's no way they're driving near as good as they should.
Any M5 can throw an expensive bill. Consumables are fairly expensive before you get to any potential failures. A set of premium tyres and brakes all round will be about £1500 easily. While that's not ruinous, I wouldn't call it cheap.
Of course they will never be as cheap to run as a similar age but cheaper car, the components will be more expensive, but it is not anywhere near the negative comments made about them...
I think the issue is that for many of those who buy older cars, they do so as they are on a low budget so M5 consumables will seem expensive - but compare it against alternatives as a total operating cost and they are surprisingly good value - a cheap middle ranking car on a lease might be £300 a month - over 5 years that is £18,000 - money that is gone... What will a modern M5 lose over that time? £1k a month? so maybe 3x? If you buy the best you can find then I reckon there is little or no depreciation, so you have a rather large budget to spend on consumables and you could even rebuild the engine a couple of times if necessary - I have already been offered 25% more than I paid for the car, so I suspect that I won't lose much, and a new set of tyres is <£700 fitted which is not horrendous
ultimately if you want this level of car you choose new at a much larger cost or older with a war chest and still spend less - but to assume that they are the same running cost as a fiesta would of course be silly
For me, I like the understated nature of the car / the lack of electronic aids and the manual gearbox - I was driving an e63 recently - phenomenal car but I don't think I would own one, every decision you make is filtered by the computers which might decide to interfere / might let you do what you want - I have no interest in a car that controls me, so the purity of the e39 is just right - all the modern comforts you might want and none of the stuff that goes wrong - all wrapped up in a package costing less to run than leasing a Skoda Octavia and with an engine that growls at you - what is not to like?!Edited by akirk on Monday 1st January 15:53
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