ULEZ charge in 2021

[C70R]

kambites said:

According to government stats 54% of greater London households have at least one car, which is a bit more than half but still surprisingly low!

http://content.tfl.gov.uk/technical-note-12-how-ma...

Sorry - you're correct. I got it conflated with another stat. Still of the same order of magnitude, which was the point.

When you consider the volume of multiple-occupancy/shared and family housing in Greater London, the penetration of cars per capita is likely to be lower than 20%. And it's worth remembering that Greater London is a larger area than the proposed ULEZ.

When I talk about this being a proposal for the masses, this is what I'm trying to get at.

Edited by C70R on Tuesday 9th April 16:26

[C70R]

kambites said:

T-195 said:

I know loads of people in London and I don't know any that don't own cars. People also need to get out of town.

That would imply that you (and indeed I, because I'm the same) know a highly skewed subset of Londoners.

Indeed.
Car enthusiasts, some of whom don't live in London, on a forum for car enthusiasts, are about as far from the average Londoner as it's possible to get.

[C70R]

swisstoni said:

C70R said:

In all of Greater London (not just the ULEZ) less than half of all households (not even people!) have a car, and I'd imagine that figure reduces exponentially with proximity to the centre.

I find this car ownership per household in Greater London stat hard to believe.

That's unfortunate, because it's accurate (albeit a tiny bit out as my memory let me down).
I'd recommend spending some time in the ULEZ and observing the volumes of people driving vs taking every other mode of transport.

[2gins]

C70R said:

coldel said:

I sold my 24 year old GT-Four Celica partly because of ULEZ, I cannot imagine this will be the last of it either it will stretch further the more money it generates. My actual address ends in Surrey, but for the purposes of when money is required I will then become London. I think the crux of it is what is London? I don't feel like I live in London, but for some reason many people use the M25 as a definition for it, even commentators on TV class Watford as a London football team which is bonkers if you think about it. I am in the ULEZ in Richmond, but certainly don't feel like I live in London.

Wait...

So you don't live in the proposed 2021 ULEZ expansion area (it runs along the A205 in East Sheen and over Kew Bridge - Richmond is clearly outside), but you already felt compelled to sell your car because of it?

Do you think you might just be overreacting a tiny bit?

I'm also in Richmond. 3 things C70R overlooks or isn't aware of.
1. Richmond could mean either the town or the borough in the poster's context, depending which he means he could be in the zone or not as the South circular bisects parts of Kew, Sheen, Barnes and Mortlake.
2. Either way the local recycling centre/tip is in the zone so it's £12.50 every time you want to dispose of something large or specialized e.g. garden waste or engine oil.
3. Even if you never do that the local council here and in other outer boroughs intend to adopt the ULEZ standards across the borough so it is likely a consideration even now. There are no details yet about when or how but whatever, it is just good planning.
Stop being a condescending arsehat.

[swisstoni]

C70R said:

swisstoni said:

C70R said:

In all of Greater London (not just the ULEZ) less than half of all households (not even people!) have a car, and I'd imagine that figure reduces exponentially with proximity to the centre.

I find this car ownership per household in Greater London stat hard to believe.

That's unfortunate, because it's accurate (albeit a tiny bit out as my memory let me down).
I'd recommend spending some time in the ULEZ and observing the volumes of people driving vs taking every other mode of transport.

I'd recommend checking your facts before spouting.

[C70R]

swisstoni said:

C70R said:

swisstoni said:

C70R said:

In all of Greater London (not just the ULEZ) less than half of all households (not even people!) have a car, and I'd imagine that figure reduces exponentially with proximity to the centre.

I find this car ownership per household in Greater London stat hard to believe.

That's unfortunate, because it's accurate (albeit a tiny bit out as my memory let me down).
I'd recommend spending some time in the ULEZ and observing the volumes of people driving vs taking every other mode of transport.

I'd recommend checking your facts before spouting.

I'm sorry. I was out by a few percentage pts because my memory let me down, but entirely correct on the order of magnitude. If that means I was "spouting" in your world, so be it.

If you'd like to take that as some kind of victory, be my guest.

But my point stands. This is a proposal and scheme for the masses, not the minority (including me) of car owners. This is why I'm happy to be compliant, without complaint.

Anyway, as someone who lives in Berkshire, I'm not sure why you're getting so worked up by it.

[kev1974]

Second Best said:

My local car wash is frequented by quite a few city runners. They're all very pissed off with the ULEZ charge, as apparently there's also been some form of (minor) stealth tax to private hire vehicles - something about clean air regulations - which means they're now potentially 10% worse off daily.

It would be illegal for me to point out that at least three of them had the same numberplate to help offset the costs.

Can't see that working out too well, it's not going to be difficult to add checks to the ANPR system that flag up to TfL that the same numberplate has been seen entering the zone again before it has left from last time, or entering twice within 5 minutes, or driving around Marble Arch and Liverpool Street simultaneously. Might not be something that an instant / real time check can spot but I expect it's something that overnight reconciliations can find. And once TfL spot that sort of shenanigans I would expect a daily ULEZ charge to be the least of the company's worries.

[Down and out]

kev1974 said:

Can't see that working out too well, it's not going to be difficult to add checks to the ANPR system that flag up to TfL that the same numberplate has been seen entering the zone again before it has left from last time, or entering twice within 5 minutes, or driving around Marble Arch and Liverpool Street simultaneously. Might not be something that an instant / real time check can spot but I expect it's something that overnight reconciliations can find. And once TfL spot that sort of shenanigans I would expect a daily ULEZ charge to be the least of the company's worries.

I very much doubt they give a toss.

[swamp]

2gins said:

I'm also in Richmond. 3 things C70R overlooks or isn't aware of.
1. Richmond could mean either the town or the borough in the poster's context, depending which he means he could be in the zone or not as the South circular bisects parts of Kew, Sheen, Barnes and Mortlake.
2. Either way the local recycling centre/tip is in the zone so it's £12.50 every time you want to dispose of something large or specialized e.g. garden waste or engine oil.
3. Even if you never do that the local council here and in other outer boroughs intend to adopt the ULEZ standards across the borough so it is likely a consideration even now. There are no details yet about when or how but whatever, it is just good planning.
Stop being a condescending arsehat.

Richmond Council actually want the Mayor to extend the ULEZ to cover the entire borough. I imagine other local authorities on the border will want the same.

[hyphen]

swamp said:

2gins said:

I'm also in Richmond. 3 things C70R overlooks or isn't aware of.
1. Richmond could mean either the town or the borough in the poster's context, depending which he means he could be in the zone or not as the South circular bisects parts of Kew, Sheen, Barnes and Mortlake.
2. Either way the local recycling centre/tip is in the zone so it's £12.50 every time you want to dispose of something large or specialized e.g. garden waste or engine oil.
3. Even if you never do that the local council here and in other outer boroughs intend to adopt the ULEZ standards across the borough so it is likely a consideration even now. There are no details yet about when or how but whatever, it is just good planning.
Stop being a condescending arsehat.

Richmond Council actually want the Mayor to extend the ULEZ to cover the entire borough. I imagine other local authorities on the border will want the same.

All the Lib Dem ones for sure.

[T-195]

kambites said:

According to government stats 54% of greater London households have at least one car, which is a bit more than half but still surprisingly low!

http://content.tfl.gov.uk/technical-note-12-how-ma...

Rather than quoting percentages, there are not far short of 3 million cars in London and that number is rising not falling.

[T-195]

kambites said:

According to government stats 54% of greater London households have at least one car, which is a bit more than half but still surprisingly low!

http://content.tfl.gov.uk/technical-note-12-how-ma...

Rather than quoting percentages, there are not far short of 3 million cars in London and that number is rising not falling.

Have either of you ever been to London?

You'd know just how hard it was to find somewhere to park if you had.

Edited by T-195 on Tuesday 9th April 19:48

[mybrainhurts]

I'm very late here, so apologies if this has been exposed already.

Is there really a problem?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gguwJRrzzF8&li...

[T-195]

C70R said:

kambites said:

T-195 said:

I know loads of people in London and I don't know any that don't own cars. People also need to get out of town.

That would imply that you (and indeed I, because I'm the same) know a highly skewed subset of Londoners.

Indeed.
Car enthusiasts, some of whom don't live in London, on a forum for car enthusiasts, are about as far from the average Londoner as it's possible to get.

Wrong again guys. I'm the only person I know who is into cars.

[Ikemi]

My F-Type V6S also appears to be exempt! Good to know!

[C70R]

T-195 said:

kambites said:

According to government stats 54% of greater London households have at least one car, which is a bit more than half but still surprisingly low!

http://content.tfl.gov.uk/technical-note-12-how-ma...

Rather than quoting percentages, there are not far short of 3 million cars in London and that number is rising not falling.

Have either of you ever been to London?

You'd know just how hard it was to find somewhere to park if you had.

Because the percentage is what matters to the humans who don't own cars, who are in a huge majority.

The population of London is also rising, massively so for a first-world city (estimated 13% between 2015 and 2025!). I'd be staggered if the number of cars increased organically by even half that rate.

I live in London, and have done (in Z1-2) for more than a decade. I own, (pay to) park and run two cars here. I'd say I'm quite well qualified to comment on that basis - at least more so than the huge number of non-Londoners who are weighing in on this thread.

Edited by C70R on Tuesday 9th April 19:55

[C70R]

T-195 said:

C70R said:

kambites said:

T-195 said:

I know loads of people in London and I don't know any that don't own cars. People also need to get out of town.

That would imply that you (and indeed I, because I'm the same) know a highly skewed subset of Londoners.

Indeed.
Car enthusiasts, some of whom don't live in London, on a forum for car enthusiasts, are about as far from the average Londoner as it's possible to get.

Wrong again guys. I'm the only person I know who is into cars.

Great. Statistics show that your experience is atypical.

Either you believe the statistics, or you don't. I know where my money would be.

[T-195]

M'Kay?

[Wolf13]

Apologies if this has already been covered but what are the possible ways to generally make Euro 2 and 3 petrol engines Euro 4 compliant? I know it depends on the engine. Just off the top of my head is an engine remap possible or special cat? Perhaps changing the cam? Would like some help with this as I'm into classics and live in Zone 2 which will be affected in 2021. I know 40 year old historics would be exempt but there are plenty of nice cars from the 80s and 90s and early to mid noughties I'd like to own without having to pay £12.50 each time.

Thanks

Edited by Wolf13 on Tuesday 9th April 20:55

[NomduJour]

It isn’t going to happen, costs would be entirely prohibitive and you’d also have to pay for the testing process.