One single thing that makes you think "knob" Vol 4
Discussion
Liquid Knight said:
In an effort to save money and not run out of salt my local council do not grit roads apart from bus routes on Sunday. Not an issue for 75% of drivers who are paying attention but the other 25% are the results of taking a dump in the gene pool.
Maybe they could buy all the salt from the Devon and Hampshire council's as they seem to be throwing that s
t around like confetti as soon as it gets close to 5 degrees C, bunch of knobs I hope they fall in and choke. Pan Pan Pan said:
Instead of moving off, as soon as the car in front starts to move, maintaining a one car gap. they leave big gaps, which then leads to a concertina effect on traffic flow, and as posted before can prevent many other cars behind, who are trying to access the next slip road from doing so.
This happened to me on a motorway near Sheffield. I was trying to get to the next off slip, but could not reach it, because an ignorant selfish gap leaver several cars in front was stopped there, with an enormous gap between his car, and the next car, hundreds of yards up the road.
When the selfish ignorant s*d finally deigned to move up, I and heaven knows how many cars behind, which all needed the same slip road, were only then able to get to the slip road and be on our way, All because of a single ignorant selfish big gap leaver.
Someone stopped and not moving at all is different to someone moving off smartly and then maintaining a constant, slow rolling speed instead of speed up, slow down, speed up, slow down...This happened to me on a motorway near Sheffield. I was trying to get to the next off slip, but could not reach it, because an ignorant selfish gap leaver several cars in front was stopped there, with an enormous gap between his car, and the next car, hundreds of yards up the road.
When the selfish ignorant s*d finally deigned to move up, I and heaven knows how many cars behind, which all needed the same slip road, were only then able to get to the slip road and be on our way, All because of a single ignorant selfish big gap leaver.
RSTurboPaul said:
Someone stopped and not moving at all is different to someone moving off smartly and then maintaining a constant, slow rolling speed instead of speed up, slow down, speed up, slow down...
Don't you go explaining the obvious to Pam Pam Pam. You'll fill in the chip on his shoulder! RSTurboPaul said:
Someone stopped and not moving at all is different to someone moving off smartly and then maintaining a constant, slow rolling speed instead of speed up, slow down, speed up, slow down...
In traffic, or in fact in any stream of traffic, the average speed of any vehicle can only exceed the lead vehicle, if the space between vehicles decreases. The measure ,of the optimum use of any road, is the number of vehicles per second. That's a factor of the average speed and distance between vehicles. Less distance between vehicles, all other things being equal, especially safety, is a good thing. Edited by Graveworm on Tuesday 3rd December 18:28
Graveworm said:
RSTurboPaul said:
Someone stopped and not moving at all is different to someone moving off smartly and then maintaining a constant, slow rolling speed instead of speed up, slow down, speed up, slow down...
In traffic, or in fact in any stream of traffic, the average speed of any vehicle can only exceed the lead vehicle if the space between vehicles decreases. The measure of the optimum use of any road is the number of vehicles per second. That's a factor of the average speed and distance between vehicles. Less distance is between vehicles all other things being equal especially safety is a good thing. Not as fun though...
I suppose i am one of those 'rolling along' bods. but only do it on a single carriaeway road. I tend to make the gap smaller when appeoacjing TL or what ever the cause of the jam is.
Sometimes the gap twixt me and the guy in front can be 50yds or more.and by the time i am getting closr to him the queue moves off and i just carry on rolling. Many times the guy behind me is doing the same and as a result the traffic is moving. Possibly psychologically better than stop drive 20ft stop rinse and repeat ad infinitum.
Noting the slip road instance if there is one coming up i will make some progress esp if the chap behind or i can see an indicator further back, so as not to impede him at all DC if i do keep a gap longer than 25ft i find the world and his mate wasnts to get in front. Making a mental note of the relative positions normally you find the line he has left is moving quicker for whatever reason! So why do they do it???
Lastly one wish i would have is that drivers have the confidence in themselves and those around them that whewn the lights go green they all move of together, instead of waiting for the one in front to get 20ft ahead before following
If we could do this it would increase the amount of cars through a given green phase
A simple way of explaining this is if you have a model train set
Put two parallel tracks down
One has 40 wagons on it with the coupling 'pulled tight' buffers apart Track 1
the other the same amount length of 4 wheel wagons but with the couplings 'compressed' buffers touching Track 2
The leading wagon on each track is at the'stop line' of the TL
Now start to move them both forward a the same speed
As the leading carriage on track one moves ,so does the last one ( better seen on full size passenger trains , but with the demise of loose couple trains the freightliner rakes are exactly the same)
With the wagons on track two the first one moves off, the coupling between it and the second wagon 'tightens up' seconds later and so on
The result is that the as the last wagon on track one passes a the 'stop line', there may well be 9 or 10 wagons on track 2 that havent even started to move and wont pass green on that phasing. and so the problem and jam compounds with every phasing of the lights
Hope that is understood
Sometimes the gap twixt me and the guy in front can be 50yds or more.and by the time i am getting closr to him the queue moves off and i just carry on rolling. Many times the guy behind me is doing the same and as a result the traffic is moving. Possibly psychologically better than stop drive 20ft stop rinse and repeat ad infinitum.
Noting the slip road instance if there is one coming up i will make some progress esp if the chap behind or i can see an indicator further back, so as not to impede him at all DC if i do keep a gap longer than 25ft i find the world and his mate wasnts to get in front. Making a mental note of the relative positions normally you find the line he has left is moving quicker for whatever reason! So why do they do it???
Lastly one wish i would have is that drivers have the confidence in themselves and those around them that whewn the lights go green they all move of together, instead of waiting for the one in front to get 20ft ahead before following
If we could do this it would increase the amount of cars through a given green phase
A simple way of explaining this is if you have a model train set
Put two parallel tracks down
One has 40 wagons on it with the coupling 'pulled tight' buffers apart Track 1
the other the same amount length of 4 wheel wagons but with the couplings 'compressed' buffers touching Track 2
The leading wagon on each track is at the'stop line' of the TL
Now start to move them both forward a the same speed
As the leading carriage on track one moves ,so does the last one ( better seen on full size passenger trains , but with the demise of loose couple trains the freightliner rakes are exactly the same)
With the wagons on track two the first one moves off, the coupling between it and the second wagon 'tightens up' seconds later and so on
The result is that the as the last wagon on track one passes a the 'stop line', there may well be 9 or 10 wagons on track 2 that havent even started to move and wont pass green on that phasing. and so the problem and jam compounds with every phasing of the lights
Hope that is understood
Graveworm said:
RSTurboPaul said:
Someone stopped and not moving at all is different to someone moving off smartly and then maintaining a constant, slow rolling speed instead of speed up, slow down, speed up, slow down...
In traffic, or in fact in any stream of traffic, the average speed of any vehicle can only exceed the lead vehicle, if the space between vehicles decreases. The measure ,of the optimum use of any road, is the number of vehicles per second. That's a factor of the average speed and distance between vehicles. Less distance between vehicles, all other things being equal, especially safety, is a good thing. Edited by Graveworm on Tuesday 3rd December 18:28
Graveworm said:
RSTurboPaul said:
Someone stopped and not moving at all is different to someone moving off smartly and then maintaining a constant, slow rolling speed instead of speed up, slow down, speed up, slow down...
In traffic, or in fact in any stream of traffic, the average speed of any vehicle can only exceed the lead vehicle, if the space between vehicles decreases. The measure ,of the optimum use of any road, is the number of vehicles per second. That's a factor of the average speed and distance between vehicles. Less distance between vehicles, all other things being equal, especially safety, is a good thing. Edited by Graveworm on Tuesday 3rd December 18:28
Traffic delays are almost exclusively CAUSED by vehicles getting too close to each other in the first place. Whether they hit each other and block lanes, or simply change lanes into gaps that are too small, requiring other drivers to brake hard to avoid them. Closing gaps in jams might sound logical to imbeciles, but it won't help.
Leave a gap, and you get a better view of the traffic beyond the car immediately in front. So you can see the jam easing and prepare to move forward before the car immediately in front moves away. You also have wriggle room in which to brake more gently if the moving off becomes stopped again. A decent gap also allows for continuos acceleration to match the traffic ahead, instead of stituations where gaps are all closed up, where getting restarted becomes a choppy affair, with lots of false starts and delays.
And once more, for clarity. You're in a jam. There' a reason for it. A reason which may well require attendance from blue-light services. If you are closed up, bumper-to-bumper, then it's NOT POSSIBLE to move over to allow blue-lights through. And you have therefore BECOME the problem. Tyres and tarmac ahead at the very least. It's the mark of a competent, considerate driver who is able to think for him/herself.
As for the "vehicles per second" thing? Yup. That's true. But as the average speed of vehicles rises, the safe braking distance between those vehicles also increases. If you have allowed extra distance between vehicles in the queue while stopped, then you can accelerate to higher speeds in a shorter time, thereby increasing the number of vehicles per second past a given point. Or you can close things right up tight and we can all crawl through, braking randomly to maintain those smaller gaps. Your choice, but I'll be leaving what I consider to be an appropriate gap between me and the car ahead, regardless of how apoplectic Mr Magoo behind me gets. Have a nice day now, y'all...
silverfoxcc said:
I suppose i am one of those 'rolling along' bods. but only do it on a single carriaeway road. I tend to make the gap smaller when appeoacjing TL or what ever the cause of the jam is.
Sometimes the gap twixt me and the guy in front can be 50yds or more.and by the time i am getting closr to him the queue moves off and i just carry on rolling. Many times the guy behind me is doing the same and as a result the traffic is moving. Possibly psychologically better than stop drive 20ft stop rinse and repeat ad infinitum.
Noting the slip road instance if there is one coming up i will make some progress esp if the chap behind or i can see an indicator further back, so as not to impede him at all DC if i do keep a gap longer than 25ft i find the world and his mate wasnts to get in front. Making a mental note of the relative positions normally you find the line he has left is moving quicker for whatever reason! So why do they do it???
Lastly one wish i would have is that drivers have the confidence in themselves and those around them that whewn the lights go green they all move of together, instead of waiting for the one in front to get 20ft ahead before following
If we could do this it would increase the amount of cars through a given green phase
A simple way of explaining this is if you have a model train set
Put two parallel tracks down
One has 40 wagons on it with the coupling 'pulled tight' buffers apart Track 1
the other the same amount length of 4 wheel wagons but with the couplings 'compressed' buffers touching Track 2
The leading wagon on each track is at the'stop line' of the TL
Now start to move them both forward a the same speed
As the leading carriage on track one moves ,so does the last one ( better seen on full size passenger trains , but with the demise of loose couple trains the freightliner rakes are exactly the same)
With the wagons on track two the first one moves off, the coupling between it and the second wagon 'tightens up' seconds later and so on
The result is that the as the last wagon on track one passes a the 'stop line', there may well be 9 or 10 wagons on track 2 that havent even started to move and wont pass green on that phasing. and so the problem and jam compounds with every phasing of the lights
Hope that is understood
What you've explained there, Mr Fox, is that leaving a gap is better than being bumper to bumper, because that way you can begin to move away even slightly before the car ahead moves, because you've left space in which to do that. Which means you achieve a higher speed past the stop line in a shorter time, and therefore other drivers who are paying attention will also be able to get through the light. A function of stopping too close to the car ahead of you is that there is no space in which to "pre-accelerate" so you are forced to wait until after the car ahead moves off and makes room for you to move into. Mulitiply this delay by the number of cars in the queue, then add in extra time for people who aren't paying attention for whatever reason, and there you have the cause of your delay in getting through the green light. And it is definitely not the fault of those leaving slightly bigger gaps.Sometimes the gap twixt me and the guy in front can be 50yds or more.and by the time i am getting closr to him the queue moves off and i just carry on rolling. Many times the guy behind me is doing the same and as a result the traffic is moving. Possibly psychologically better than stop drive 20ft stop rinse and repeat ad infinitum.
Noting the slip road instance if there is one coming up i will make some progress esp if the chap behind or i can see an indicator further back, so as not to impede him at all DC if i do keep a gap longer than 25ft i find the world and his mate wasnts to get in front. Making a mental note of the relative positions normally you find the line he has left is moving quicker for whatever reason! So why do they do it???
Lastly one wish i would have is that drivers have the confidence in themselves and those around them that whewn the lights go green they all move of together, instead of waiting for the one in front to get 20ft ahead before following
If we could do this it would increase the amount of cars through a given green phase
A simple way of explaining this is if you have a model train set
Put two parallel tracks down
One has 40 wagons on it with the coupling 'pulled tight' buffers apart Track 1
the other the same amount length of 4 wheel wagons but with the couplings 'compressed' buffers touching Track 2
The leading wagon on each track is at the'stop line' of the TL
Now start to move them both forward a the same speed
As the leading carriage on track one moves ,so does the last one ( better seen on full size passenger trains , but with the demise of loose couple trains the freightliner rakes are exactly the same)
With the wagons on track two the first one moves off, the coupling between it and the second wagon 'tightens up' seconds later and so on
The result is that the as the last wagon on track one passes a the 'stop line', there may well be 9 or 10 wagons on track 2 that havent even started to move and wont pass green on that phasing. and so the problem and jam compounds with every phasing of the lights
Hope that is understood
Another thing I notice, frequently, is idiots delaying things by holding the car on the clutch. I'll pull up next to them, handbrake, neutral, relax. They're next to me, more roll-back than an Asda promotion, rocking back and forth. Then the light changes and they're on a "clutch depressed" phase, but the revs aren't matched. They take a second or two to get going, where I'm off because I've seen the amber light and am into gear with revs matched for a clean getaway. They also tend to be the chumps who are needlessly in "the fast lane" (ie: lane 2) at traffic lights even though lane 1 was empty. So they also annoyingly delay drivers behind them who are in a hurry and want to (correctly) use lane 2 for overtaking, but are effectively dropping back behind cars they previously overtook on approach to the lights.
, all due to a poor driver who believes he's God's Gift but clearly isn't.
No one is advocating driving or stopping too close to the car in front, only morons do that, Not sure who made that one up?.
Stopping a car length behind the car in front in traffic, and maintaining a car length for each 10 mph that the traffic is able to move at is the best way to shorten the length of the traffic jam, and reduce the time taken (particularly for all the drivers behind) to get through one.
Those who don't move off once the vehicle in front has moved off, and who allow big gaps to form, before they can be bothered to put their car in gear, and move up are just lane blockers, who are too ignorant to understand the cumulative effect their actions have on traffic flow and in particular those unlucky enough to be behind them.
What they are doing is the equivalent of someone sat in front at a set of traffic lights, who does not move off when the light changes to green, (or as in traffic when the vehicle in front has moved off). and who then just sit there, not moving, until the lights start changing to red, and only at this point, do they bother to put their car in gear and move off. People would not be happy with, and tolerate this anti social behavior at traffic lights, so why should they be subjected to it in a traffic jam?
All the lane blocker is doing is holding up the traffic in terms of both distance, and time, and each driver who does this, is cumulatively adding to the length of a traffic jam, and the time taken for those behind to get through it.
As stated repeatedly a stopped car never improves traffic flow, in fact it is likely to be a car that for some reason has stopped, which has caused the traffic jam in the first place, and the lane blockers are just multiplying the effect, of the first stopped vehicle/s..
If a driver cannot judge stopped distance to the car in front to one car length from the car in front, and who cannot maintain a gap equivalent to one car length for each ten mph of road speed, they really don't have enough driving ability, to be allowed on to a public road. In a driving test they would be failed for not making proper progress.
Stopping a car length behind the car in front in traffic, and maintaining a car length for each 10 mph that the traffic is able to move at is the best way to shorten the length of the traffic jam, and reduce the time taken (particularly for all the drivers behind) to get through one.
Those who don't move off once the vehicle in front has moved off, and who allow big gaps to form, before they can be bothered to put their car in gear, and move up are just lane blockers, who are too ignorant to understand the cumulative effect their actions have on traffic flow and in particular those unlucky enough to be behind them.
What they are doing is the equivalent of someone sat in front at a set of traffic lights, who does not move off when the light changes to green, (or as in traffic when the vehicle in front has moved off). and who then just sit there, not moving, until the lights start changing to red, and only at this point, do they bother to put their car in gear and move off. People would not be happy with, and tolerate this anti social behavior at traffic lights, so why should they be subjected to it in a traffic jam?
All the lane blocker is doing is holding up the traffic in terms of both distance, and time, and each driver who does this, is cumulatively adding to the length of a traffic jam, and the time taken for those behind to get through it.
As stated repeatedly a stopped car never improves traffic flow, in fact it is likely to be a car that for some reason has stopped, which has caused the traffic jam in the first place, and the lane blockers are just multiplying the effect, of the first stopped vehicle/s..
If a driver cannot judge stopped distance to the car in front to one car length from the car in front, and who cannot maintain a gap equivalent to one car length for each ten mph of road speed, they really don't have enough driving ability, to be allowed on to a public road. In a driving test they would be failed for not making proper progress.
yellowjack said:
Graveworm said:
RSTurboPaul said:
Someone stopped and not moving at all is different to someone moving off smartly and then maintaining a constant, slow rolling speed instead of speed up, slow down, speed up, slow down...
In traffic, or in fact in any stream of traffic, the average speed of any vehicle can only exceed the lead vehicle, if the space between vehicles decreases. The measure ,of the optimum use of any road, is the number of vehicles per second. That's a factor of the average speed and distance between vehicles. Less distance between vehicles, all other things being equal, especially safety, is a good thing. Edited by Graveworm on Tuesday 3rd December 18:28
Traffic delays are almost exclusively CAUSED by vehicles getting too close to each other in the first place. Whether they hit each other and block lanes, or simply change lanes into gaps that are too small, requiring other drivers to brake hard to avoid them. Closing gaps in jams might sound logical to imbeciles, but it won't help.
Leave a gap, and you get a better view of the traffic beyond the car immediately in front. So you can see the jam easing and prepare to move forward before the car immediately in front moves away. You also have wriggle room in which to brake more gently if the moving off becomes stopped again. A decent gap also allows for continuos acceleration to match the traffic ahead, instead of stituations where gaps are all closed up, where getting restarted becomes a choppy affair, with lots of false starts and delays.
And once more, for clarity. You're in a jam. There' a reason for it. A reason which may well require attendance from blue-light services. If you are closed up, bumper-to-bumper, then it's NOT POSSIBLE to move over to allow blue-lights through. And you have therefore BECOME the problem. Tyres and tarmac ahead at the very least. It's the mark of a competent, considerate driver who is able to think for him/herself.
As for the "vehicles per second" thing? Yup. That's true. But as the average speed of vehicles rises, the safe braking distance between those vehicles also increases. If you have allowed extra distance between vehicles in the queue while stopped, then you can accelerate to higher speeds in a shorter time, thereby increasing the number of vehicles per second past a given point. Or you can close things right up tight and we can all crawl through, braking randomly to maintain those smaller gaps. Your choice, but I'll be leaving what I consider to be an appropriate gap between me and the car ahead, regardless of how apoplectic Mr Magoo behind me gets. Have a nice day now, y'all...
Graveworm said:
yellowjack said:
Graveworm said:
RSTurboPaul said:
Someone stopped and not moving at all is different to someone moving off smartly and then maintaining a constant, slow rolling speed instead of speed up, slow down, speed up, slow down...
In traffic, or in fact in any stream of traffic, the average speed of any vehicle can only exceed the lead vehicle, if the space between vehicles decreases. The measure ,of the optimum use of any road, is the number of vehicles per second. That's a factor of the average speed and distance between vehicles. Less distance between vehicles, all other things being equal, especially safety, is a good thing. Edited by Graveworm on Tuesday 3rd December 18:28
Traffic delays are almost exclusively CAUSED by vehicles getting too close to each other in the first place. Whether they hit each other and block lanes, or simply change lanes into gaps that are too small, requiring other drivers to brake hard to avoid them. Closing gaps in jams might sound logical to imbeciles, but it won't help.
Leave a gap, and you get a better view of the traffic beyond the car immediately in front. So you can see the jam easing and prepare to move forward before the car immediately in front moves away. You also have wriggle room in which to brake more gently if the moving off becomes stopped again. A decent gap also allows for continuos acceleration to match the traffic ahead, instead of stituations where gaps are all closed up, where getting restarted becomes a choppy affair, with lots of false starts and delays.
And once more, for clarity. You're in a jam. There' a reason for it. A reason which may well require attendance from blue-light services. If you are closed up, bumper-to-bumper, then it's NOT POSSIBLE to move over to allow blue-lights through. And you have therefore BECOME the problem. Tyres and tarmac ahead at the very least. It's the mark of a competent, considerate driver who is able to think for him/herself.
As for the "vehicles per second" thing? Yup. That's true. But as the average speed of vehicles rises, the safe braking distance between those vehicles also increases. If you have allowed extra distance between vehicles in the queue while stopped, then you can accelerate to higher speeds in a shorter time, thereby increasing the number of vehicles per second past a given point. Or you can close things right up tight and we can all crawl through, braking randomly to maintain those smaller gaps. Your choice, but I'll be leaving what I consider to be an appropriate gap between me and the car ahead, regardless of how apoplectic Mr Magoo behind me gets. Have a nice day now, y'all...
Just take last Sunday on the M3 as an example. Three lanes down to two, and instead of each driver opening up a two-car gap, the blethering Muppets start closing gaps to less than a car length. Now a lane 1 (closing lane) car might be able to move slowly into a two-car gap with half a car length of margin either end, but anything less and it's impossible to merge at all with forcing another driver to increase the gap. Result? Traffic in all lanes ends up stood still despite the fact that beyond the lane closure the M-way is running completely smoothly at "whatever speed you fancy" really. Yet at the point of closure, those pesky human beings, and their illogical, territorial decisions, are squabbling about the order in which everyone gets to go through the pinch-point.
The simple answer is larger gaps, and everyone letting in the car beside them which has it's nose ahead, regardless of which lane they are in or who "got there first". With larger gaps, safety separation is maintained and a higher average speed through the roadworks is preserved to EVERYONE'S benefit. Those Muppets closing gaps to deliberately prevent lanes merging together create a wholly detrimental effect upon themselves and everyone else. This is due to 'human nature' and the fact that they aren't the only ones "winning" by one car length. The same is being repeated ahead, and behind, and it is, in fact, the root cause of the massive delay in the first place.
You hear it all the time on PH. "I was driving along and the 40 mph warning signs were lit, warning of queues ahead, but when I got there there were no queues". Well, duh? If everyone slowed to 40 mph as advised (or indeed instructed on variable limit sections) then they'd arrive later at the back of the queue and possibly give the queue time to disperse. Far better to surrender 30 mph off your average speed for two minutes than to spend 4 minutes stood still in a 'phantom' traffic jam. But no, most morons plow on at 70 mph regardless, meaning they have to brake harder, often to a standstill, and their determination to preserve their speed regardless of the situation developing ahead of them backfires spectacularly, by actually increasing the physical length and the duration of the delay for them, and everyone behind them.
I've said my piece on the subject now, though, and am in no mood to see this descend into a thread derailing slanging match.
yellowjack said:
It's hardly straw man now. You present "Less distance between vehicles, all other things being equal, especially safety, is a good thing" as fact. But it isn't because driving involves human beings, their often bizarre decisions and opinions, and their flawed reaction times and ability to concentrate on the task at hand. Autonomous vehicles,my, in future, be able to close up so close they can be coupled together like train carriages. but try that with human drivers and the roads would be one massive pileup. When human factors are introduced to the "all other things being equal" equation, separation, not close proximity, becomes the key to safe, swift disbursement of standing traffic.
Just take last Sunday on the M3 as an example. Three lanes down to two, and instead of each driver opening up a two-car gap, the blethering Muppets start closing gaps to less than a car length. Now a lane 1 (closing lane) car might be able to move slowly into a two-car gap with half a car length of margin either end, but anything less and it's impossible to merge at all with forcing another driver to increase the gap. Result? Traffic in all lanes ends up stood still despite the fact that beyond the lane closure the M-way is running completely smoothly at "whatever speed you fancy" really. Yet at the point of closure, those pesky human beings, and their illogical, territorial decisions, are squabbling about the order in which everyone gets to go through the pinch-point.
The simple answer is larger gaps, and everyone letting in the car beside them which has it's nose ahead, regardless of which lane they are in or who "got there first". With larger gaps, safety separation is maintained and a higher average speed through the roadworks is preserved to EVERYONE'S benefit. Those Muppets closing gaps to deliberately prevent lanes merging together create a wholly detrimental effect upon themselves and everyone else. This is due to 'human nature' and the fact that they aren't the only ones "winning" by one car length. The same is being repeated ahead, and behind, and it is, in fact, the root cause of the massive delay in the first place.
You hear it all the time on PH. "I was driving along and the 40 mph warning signs were lit, warning of queues ahead, but when I got there there were no queues". Well, duh? If everyone slowed to 40 mph as advised (or indeed instructed on variable limit sections) then they'd arrive later at the back of the queue and possibly give the queue time to disperse. Far better to surrender 30 mph off your average speed for two minutes than to spend 4 minutes stood still in a 'phantom' traffic jam. But no, most morons plow on at 70 mph regardless, meaning they have to brake harder, often to a standstill, and their determination to preserve their speed regardless of the situation developing ahead of them backfires spectacularly, by actually increasing the physical length and the duration of the delay for them, and everyone behind them.
I've said my piece on the subject now, though, and am in no mood to see this descend into a thread derailing slanging match.
I invite you to read your reply and then see, in what way, that has anything to do with either of my posts. I clearly said all other things being equal and amplified with, especially safety. Then you throw in situations, none of which I mentioned, but ignore the only specific I did. In all your whataboutism examples things are neither equal nor safe. Not sure what else a straw man can be, Just take last Sunday on the M3 as an example. Three lanes down to two, and instead of each driver opening up a two-car gap, the blethering Muppets start closing gaps to less than a car length. Now a lane 1 (closing lane) car might be able to move slowly into a two-car gap with half a car length of margin either end, but anything less and it's impossible to merge at all with forcing another driver to increase the gap. Result? Traffic in all lanes ends up stood still despite the fact that beyond the lane closure the M-way is running completely smoothly at "whatever speed you fancy" really. Yet at the point of closure, those pesky human beings, and their illogical, territorial decisions, are squabbling about the order in which everyone gets to go through the pinch-point.
The simple answer is larger gaps, and everyone letting in the car beside them which has it's nose ahead, regardless of which lane they are in or who "got there first". With larger gaps, safety separation is maintained and a higher average speed through the roadworks is preserved to EVERYONE'S benefit. Those Muppets closing gaps to deliberately prevent lanes merging together create a wholly detrimental effect upon themselves and everyone else. This is due to 'human nature' and the fact that they aren't the only ones "winning" by one car length. The same is being repeated ahead, and behind, and it is, in fact, the root cause of the massive delay in the first place.
You hear it all the time on PH. "I was driving along and the 40 mph warning signs were lit, warning of queues ahead, but when I got there there were no queues". Well, duh? If everyone slowed to 40 mph as advised (or indeed instructed on variable limit sections) then they'd arrive later at the back of the queue and possibly give the queue time to disperse. Far better to surrender 30 mph off your average speed for two minutes than to spend 4 minutes stood still in a 'phantom' traffic jam. But no, most morons plow on at 70 mph regardless, meaning they have to brake harder, often to a standstill, and their determination to preserve their speed regardless of the situation developing ahead of them backfires spectacularly, by actually increasing the physical length and the duration of the delay for them, and everyone behind them.
I've said my piece on the subject now, though, and am in no mood to see this descend into a thread derailing slanging match.
There's no difference in flow capacity per lane, whatever the speed. If people maintain a two second gap, that's 1800 vehicles/h, per lane. In fact, flow capacity at higher speeds may be marginally higher, because of the length of the vehicle representing less time.
Of course, that's pure theoretical maths. Heavy traffic generally means 1s gaps. Any less than that, and a phantom traffic jam is likely to happen.
Once you have a traffic jam, the flow rate is going to be reduced, because of the amount of time it takes for one vehicle to pass a given point.
Of course, that's pure theoretical maths. Heavy traffic generally means 1s gaps. Any less than that, and a phantom traffic jam is likely to happen.
Once you have a traffic jam, the flow rate is going to be reduced, because of the amount of time it takes for one vehicle to pass a given point.
Solocle said:
There's no difference in flow capacity per lane, whatever the speed. If people maintain a two second gap, that's 1800 vehicles/h, per lane. In fact, flow capacity at higher speeds may be marginally higher, because of the length of the vehicle representing less time.
Of course, that's pure theoretical maths. Heavy traffic generally means 1s gaps. Any less than that, and a phantom traffic jam is likely to happen.
Once you have a traffic jam, the flow rate is going to be reduced, because of the amount of time it takes for one vehicle to pass a given point.
Yes but we were referring to those who when in a traffic jam, think it is OK to sit there not moving, until, and unless very large gap has opened up between them and the next car ahead. Of course, that's pure theoretical maths. Heavy traffic generally means 1s gaps. Any less than that, and a phantom traffic jam is likely to happen.
Once you have a traffic jam, the flow rate is going to be reduced, because of the amount of time it takes for one vehicle to pass a given point.
As posted earlier this is the same as a driver not moving off from traffic lights, when the traffic light turns green, Only they do it repeatedly in traffic jams, with the feeble excuse that they are trying to smooth out traffic flow. They are not, they are lane blocking. If it is not acceptable to stop on green at a set of traffic lights when the road ahead is clear enough to move off , it is not acceptable to repeatedly do it in traffic jams.
What makes this practice worse is that leaving big gaps encourages some drivers in adjacent lanes to switch into the gap left by the lane blocker, so that the lane containing the lane blocker is hardly able to move forward at all
Lane blockers also prevent drivers behind from accessing a slip road, that may only be a few yards up ahead, but they cannot reach it, because there is an ignorant lane blocker several cars up, sitting there, not moving with a big gap in front of them.
it is anti social, and means that they are ignorant of the cumulative effect this behavior has on those in the traffic jam, unlucky enough to be behind them.
Graveworm said:
I invite you to read your reply and then see, in what way, that has anything to do with either of my posts. I clearly said all other things being equal and amplified with, especially safety. Then you throw in situations, none of which I mentioned, but ignore the only specific I did. In all your whataboutism examples things are neither equal nor safe. Not sure what else a straw man can be,
Oh, for Pete's sake. It's not just about you. There are other posters debating this issue. Why do you presume that anything I submit is specifically aimed at what you last said? Or is this a properly structured debate? In which case do we have a Chair through which I should address any further submissions? FYI I read posts, and sometimes reply to them. I'm also that bloke with eleventy bajillion tabs open all at once. Often I'm not responding to the post above mine, but one half a page or more back because I've had the tab open and taken so long composing my replyAnd I'll also lump replies to several other posters into one submission because I'm uncommonly lazy that way. But you carry on believing that the world revolves around you if it makes you feel more secure...yellowjack said:
Oh, for Pete's sake. It's not just about you. There are other posters debating this issue. Why do you presume that anything I submit is specifically aimed at what you last said? Or is this a properly structured debate? In which case do we have a Chair through which I should address any further submissions? FYI I read posts, and sometimes reply to them. I'm also that bloke with eleventy bajillion tabs open all at once. Often I'm not responding to the post above mine, but one half a page or more back because I've had the tab open and taken so long composing my replyAnd I'll also lump replies to several other posters into one submission because I'm uncommonly lazy that way. But you carry on believing that the world revolves around you if it makes you feel more secure...
My mistake, I guess I thought that because you quoted my post and referred to it in yours; then did the same again when I replied.Edited by Graveworm on Wednesday 4th December 21:36
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