Pirelli P-Zero Corsas & Cold Weather
Discussion
AmosMoses said:
Come on people, what did we do before winter tyres and rain specific ones? We drove better!
Tyres were far more versatile 25 years ago. For environmental reasons, tyre designs have converged a lot. If you look at the leading premium high performance tyres today, they look very similar, as in they all have a longitudinal design, far from great in the snow/mud.
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Conversely, when the Michelin TRX was the leading performance tyre, it was actually half decent in the snow and you can visually see why:
I find winter tyres really useful and I certainly drive better than 25 years ago. I would probably survive on summers in winter but I prefer not to. I have no issues with anyone making a different choice.
Have had PZ on the TVR for about 8 years now, Bril in the dry and heat, that includes tyre heat. I can spin them up from cold very easy, and would not want them in the wet or snow, and they only last 3500 miles a set, But would not have anything else on the TVR, also have them on my MX5, Good tyre Winter and Summer and last longer.
I have definitely noticed a lack of traction on 3 separate occasions over the last week or so.
Michelin PS3's on a clio 182.
Just setting off for work, about a quarter of a mile away, turning out of a side road so a fair amount of lock which never helps, small amount of wheel slip.
Also when pulling out of a roundabout on the way home, both car and tyres were cold.
Michelin PS3's on a clio 182.
Just setting off for work, about a quarter of a mile away, turning out of a side road so a fair amount of lock which never helps, small amount of wheel slip.
Also when pulling out of a roundabout on the way home, both car and tyres were cold.
smarty156 said:
"But otherwise dry" - that's the key comment.
In the warm, wet or dry, they're great.
In the cold traction is a bit of a problem until you get heat into them but that's quite easy to do.
In the cold AND wet they are truly horrendous. I suggest you post back on here your experiences in those conditions. Then you'll know what the fuss is about. It's not lack of traction (which you can deal with, or the traction control can deal with), it's a total lack of grip and you can't really do much about it because you can't get any heat into the tyres. Having been on a skid pan with the Quadrifoglio in the summer on the Corsas I think the traction control is absolutely fantastic. 1st gear on a wet circle and floor it and you can't lose it unless in Race mode. But if theres no grip from the tyres then that means nothing - no traction control can overcome the laws of physics.
Take care in the cold and wet. The rest of the time enjoy.
It's not even winter yet either!
Got back from travelling on Wednesday and immediately immersed into -5 degrees temperatures and wet.In the warm, wet or dry, they're great.
In the cold traction is a bit of a problem until you get heat into them but that's quite easy to do.
In the cold AND wet they are truly horrendous. I suggest you post back on here your experiences in those conditions. Then you'll know what the fuss is about. It's not lack of traction (which you can deal with, or the traction control can deal with), it's a total lack of grip and you can't really do much about it because you can't get any heat into the tyres. Having been on a skid pan with the Quadrifoglio in the summer on the Corsas I think the traction control is absolutely fantastic. 1st gear on a wet circle and floor it and you can't lose it unless in Race mode. But if theres no grip from the tyres then that means nothing - no traction control can overcome the laws of physics.
Take care in the cold and wet. The rest of the time enjoy.
It's not even winter yet either!
Edited by smarty156 on Friday 24th November 19:06
Edited by smarty156 on Friday 24th November 19:12
Easy to break traction and an obvious performance loss, but that's no surprise with 500bhp across 2 wheels.....and I certainly wouldn't give it 'large' in the wet, but I absolutely wouldn't describe them as horrendous? A couple of times you could feel the LSD/e-diff working as an inside wheel broke traction, but nothing dramatically worse than Michelin SuperSports on my old 640d.
And without snow, it isn't going to get much worse than -5 and wet.
I'm interested to hear how Allan Muir fairs with Sottozeros on his.
Hang On said:
AmosMoses said:
Quite, i also drove the MX5 in the snow and Ice with non winter tyres and i didn't die.
Come on people, what did we do before winter tyres and rain specific ones? We drove better!
We avoided wCome on people, what did we do before winter tyres and rain specific ones? We drove better!
kers like you on the wrong tyres hopefully.
Total comprehension fail.Did this BS about sumer tyres ceasing to work below 7 Celsius stem from a particularly crap set of Chinese death tyres? As per the OP, the amount of grip available on my summer tyres in low temperature conditions is still more than adequate, certainly no cliff-like drop in grip as some seem to suggest. Performance in snow is very likely dire, but there hasn't been any signifcant snow for years down here.
Mr2Mike said:
Hang On said:
AmosMoses said:
Quite, i also drove the MX5 in the snow and Ice with non winter tyres and i didn't die.
Come on people, what did we do before winter tyres and rain specific ones? We drove better!
We avoided wCome on people, what did we do before winter tyres and rain specific ones? We drove better!
kers like you on the wrong tyres hopefully. Total comprehension fail.Did this BS about sumer tyres ceasing to work below 7 Celsius stem from a particularly crap set of Chinese death tyres? As per the OP, the amount of grip available on my summer tyres in low temperature conditions is still more than adequate, certainly no cliff-like drop in grip as some seem to suggest. Performance in snow is very likely dire, but there hasn't been any signifcant snow for years down here.
Mr2Mike said:
Did this BS about sumer tyres ceasing to work below 7 Celsius stem from a particularly crap set of Chinese death tyres? As per the OP, the amount of grip available on my summer tyres in low temperature conditions is still more than adequate, certainly no cliff-like drop in grip as some seem to suggest. Performance in snow is very likely dire, but there hasn't been any signifcant snow for years down here.
I think the tyre manufacturers are a bit guilty to be honest with that 7 C BS thing and it has backfired a bit as some, like you, have spotted the BS and then concluded that it meant winter tyres had no use except in the snow.IME summer tyres only very slowly and gradually start hardening and losing friction at 7 C. But it's probably insignificant down to around 3 C or 4 C...
nickfrog said:
I think the tyre manufacturers are a bit guilty to be honest with that 7 C BS thing and it has backfired a bit as some, like you, have spotted the BS and then concluded that it meant winter tyres had no use except in the snow.
Not quite true, I'm know summer tyres don't work well at very low temperatures, but it seems the conditions where the performance has degraded noticeably don't occur often in the south west at least.I would really like to see a proper independant test of a range of summer tyres (from premium to budget) in low temperatures, as I suspect there is some signifciant variation in performance.
I decided to give Continental TS 830 on my Giulia QF. Why, because the tread blocks on the Pirelli’s were definitely stiffer in the cold and noticeably less good first thing in the morning or late. I have never tried Winter tyres before, but decided to give them a go. First 1,000 miles didn’t feel as good as the Pirelli’s, but now the temperature has dropped further I have way more confidence in the Conti’s and find in wet & cold conditions they are immense!
Herbs said:
Thankfully in the south, it just gets cold!
It's more the greatly reduced spectrum between grip and "oh fk" , there can be very little margin in it sometimes. The Z4M I had in winter would regularly get the rear end out by 20 degrees or so when pulling out of junctions in the country even with the traction control on when the tyres were cold which highlighted how little grip there was at that point. When warm or outside of winter, the over nannying TC wouldnt give you more than a couple of degrees before it killed the power.
If the above is true, I think the issue is obvious, and it has very little to do with what tyres were fitted.It's more the greatly reduced spectrum between grip and "oh f
k" , there can be very little margin in it sometimes. The Z4M I had in winter would regularly get the rear end out by 20 degrees or so when pulling out of junctions in the country even with the traction control on when the tyres were cold which highlighted how little grip there was at that point. When warm or outside of winter, the over nannying TC wouldnt give you more than a couple of degrees before it killed the power.f1nn said:
Herbs said:
Thankfully in the south, it just gets cold!
It's more the greatly reduced spectrum between grip and "oh fk" , there can be very little margin in it sometimes. The Z4M I had in winter would regularly get the rear end out by 20 degrees or so when pulling out of junctions in the country even with the traction control on when the tyres were cold which highlighted how little grip there was at that point. When warm or outside of winter, the over nannying TC wouldnt give you more than a couple of degrees before it killed the power.
If the above is true, I think the issue is obvious, and it has very little to do with what tyres were fitted.It's more the greatly reduced spectrum between grip and "oh f
k" , there can be very little margin in it sometimes. The Z4M I had in winter would regularly get the rear end out by 20 degrees or so when pulling out of junctions in the country even with the traction control on when the tyres were cold which highlighted how little grip there was at that point. When warm or outside of winter, the over nannying TC wouldnt give you more than a couple of degrees before it killed the power.
I suggest actually owning and driving the car in question before commenting.
I've owned a selection of rear drive BMW's, with power outputs up to in excess of 420BHP and fitted with any thing from Pzero, to Pilot supersport tyres fitted through winter and could count on no hands the amount of times the rear stepped out 20 degrees, unless I was deliberately provoking it.
My point being, that if any rear wheel drive car is regularly stepping out 20 degrees WITHOUT provocation, then I would seriously question the driving style used.
But hey, what do I know.
My point being, that if any rear wheel drive car is regularly stepping out 20 degrees WITHOUT provocation, then I would seriously question the driving style used.
But hey, what do I know.
f1nn said:
I've owned a selection of rear drive BMW's, with power outputs up to in excess of 420BHP and fitted with any thing from Pzero, to Pilot supersport tyres fitted through winter and could count on no hands the amount of times the rear stepped out 20 degrees, unless I was deliberately provoking it.
My point being, that if any rear wheel drive car is regularly stepping out 20 degrees WITHOUT provocation, then I would seriously question the driving style used.
But hey, what do I know.
Not a lot apparently.My point being, that if any rear wheel drive car is regularly stepping out 20 degrees WITHOUT provocation, then I would seriously question the driving style used.
But hey, what do I know.
Did you even read my post?
Firstly, i'm not talking about day to day driving, I explicitly stated pulling out of country road junctions in winter with cold tyres on a Z4M.
Secondly - 20 degrees is not that big an angle - it's not as if i said i'm drifting round roundabouts on them.
I have also driven many BMW's and other cars throughout winter and been absolutely fine - MPSS are actually great tyres - we were talking about track biased tyres in winter and the grip difference between hot and cold tyres.
If you want to start a holier than thou crusade then head over to mumsnet, rather than read something into a post that isn't there on here.
What is it you think I'm reading in to your post?
I'm simply saying that 20 degrees of rear end movement is a lot if unintended.
If I was regulalry experiencing that sort of movement in the same circumstances as you are describing, I can't imagine not altering my driving style to suit to take into accoint the obvious reduced adhesion.
No big crusade...no need for mumsnet...no drama.
It's common sense surely?
I'm simply saying that 20 degrees of rear end movement is a lot if unintended.
If I was regulalry experiencing that sort of movement in the same circumstances as you are describing, I can't imagine not altering my driving style to suit to take into accoint the obvious reduced adhesion.
No big crusade...no need for mumsnet...no drama.
It's common sense surely?
f1nn said:
What is it you think I'm reading in to your post?
I'm simply saying that 20 degrees of rear end movement is a lot if unintended.
If I was regulalry experiencing that sort of movement in the same circumstances as you are describing, I can't imagine not altering my driving style to suit to take into accoint the obvious reduced adhesion.
No big crusade...no need for mumsnet...no drama.
It's common sense surely?
I'm not sure what you are reading hence my post.I'm simply saying that 20 degrees of rear end movement is a lot if unintended.
If I was regulalry experiencing that sort of movement in the same circumstances as you are describing, I can't imagine not altering my driving style to suit to take into accoint the obvious reduced adhesion.
No big crusade...no need for mumsnet...no drama.
It's common sense surely?
The point was to illustrate how cold summer/track tyres lose a lot of grip in cold and damp conditions compared to the rest of the year.
You've owned a lot of BMW's so you know how good/intrusive their TC is (especially on the Z4M) , my point was that even with the TC on, it would step out pulling out of junctions with cold tyres in cold conditions. The first gear and clutch movement used in it doesn't help.
I was aware of it and of course, I would not push the car in those conditions - it was merely an example to the OP who hadn't experienced that to date so he may not come a cropper when he does experience it for the first time.
CaptainSensib1e said:
I have regular P Zeros on my car (400bhp+ RWD) and they were atorcious this morning, temp was 3 degrees but road bone dry. Moderately accelerating in third up a hill the back end was squirming around all over the place. Going to replace them with Michelin Pilot Sports once they are down to 3mm.
Us Mustang drivers know how atrocious the OEM fit P Zeros are in cold conditions. When the tyres warm up they're ok but the first few miles are hilarious. I changed mine to MPSS and it's like a different car. Blanchimont said:
I use Semi-Slicks (AD08R's) all year round. Have had some -5 degree starts and as long as you don't drive like a prick, they're fine.
I don't really understand the need for winter tires in the south west, up north may be a different case.
Fully agree but this isn't about winter tyres I don't really understand the need for winter tires in the south west, up north may be a different case.
The discussion has been about track biased performing the same as normal all season tyres.
What car are they on BTW , had some on one of my Elise's and whilst great in the dry, had to tiptoe in the wet in them.
Herbs said:
Blanchimont said:
I use Semi-Slicks (AD08R's) all year round. Have had some -5 degree starts and as long as you don't drive like a prick, they're fine.
I don't really understand the need for winter tires in the south west, up north may be a different case.
Fully agree but this isn't about winter tyres I don't really understand the need for winter tires in the south west, up north may be a different case.
The discussion has been about track biased performing the same as normal all season tyres.
What car are they on BTW , had some on one of my Elise's and whilst great in the dry, had to tiptoe in the wet in them.
I had 595RSR's on them before, and I could find the limit of them much, much quicker than the AD08R's. Wet grip especially is massively improved on the Yoko's
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