What is happening at EVO magazine?
Discussion
It's utterly bizarre that people describe the Alpine A110 as analogue... I had one for a short period of time and it could have been pretty much any other new DCT car in the vast majority of situations, I get that's what most people want but it isn't analogue. The steering isn't analogue and the gearbox isn't analogue... it doesn't weigh much by modern standards and it has that going for it but analogue it is not.
milfordkong said:
It's utterly bizarre that people describe the Alpine A110 as analogue... I had one for a short period of time and it could have been pretty much any other new DCT car in the vast majority of situations, I get that's what most people want but it isn't analogue. The steering isn't analogue and the gearbox isn't analogue... it doesn't weigh much by modern standards and it has that going for it but analogue it is not.
I don't get it myself. Is it just a buzz word? Are have the goalposts moved so much (in the sense of how utterly anesthetised the modern driving experience is in many cars) that even an A110 is seen as 'analogue'?Stick them in an DC2 Integra and their mind would be blown, that's an analogue experience.
carguy45 said:
have the goalposts moved so much (in the sense of how utterly anesthetised the modern driving experience is in many cars) that even an A110 is seen as 'analogue'?
Stick them in an DC2 Integra and their mind would be blown, that's an analogue experience.
From a marketing and review perspective - yes. They have to compare against the current competition.Stick them in an DC2 Integra and their mind would be blown, that's an analogue experience.
...and whilst your comparison to the DC2 is entirely accurate, in all honesty it was ever thus. Compare a DC2 to an original Lotus Elan and the Lotus will be even more 'analogue'. Stick that Lotus next to a 1930s Bugatti and I suspect (although I've not driven one) the same theme could be levied.
Compare the Bugatti to a horse...
havoc said:
carguy45 said:
have the goalposts moved so much (in the sense of how utterly anesthetised the modern driving experience is in many cars) that even an A110 is seen as 'analogue'?
Stick them in an DC2 Integra and their mind would be blown, that's an analogue experience.
From a marketing and review perspective - yes. They have to compare against the current competition.Stick them in an DC2 Integra and their mind would be blown, that's an analogue experience.
...and whilst your comparison to the DC2 is entirely accurate, in all honesty it was ever thus. Compare a DC2 to an original Lotus Elan and the Lotus will be even more 'analogue'. Stick that Lotus next to a 1930s Bugatti and I suspect (although I've not driven one) the same theme could be levied.
Compare the Bugatti to a horse...
Modern, electronic era cars definitely feel different to drive. They're remote and disconnected. The sense of controlling a machine, and the machine being an extension of yourself, has been lost - and this isn't due to age, or NVH, this is due to the loss of connection.
NDNDNDND said:
I dispute that, actually - there's been a change: the move from mechanical to electronic control.
...
Yes. but you underestimate the prior changes....
The DC2 has PAS - hydraulic, admittedly, but still assisted steering. And whilst it's a good example, it's not perfect (Mk1 Focus was, surprisingly, better, for example). The move to electric assistance is something that's capable of being finessed (as Porsche have shown), even if the best EPAS still aren't as good as the best HPAS, I'll wager that good . But both are assisted, where the Elan and Bugatti weren't.
The DC2 has servo-assisted brakes. Exactly the same story...older cars didn't have assistance, so it was even more linear and uncorrupted between your input and the car's reaction.
...and as for DBW vs hydraulic throttles, are you old enough to recall throttle cables with slack in them? All of a sudden the top part of the accelerator pedal does nothing. DBW throttles CAN be tuned to be more responsive than the cable, even if the direct link is severed.
The final piece of the puzzle is NVH. NVH has gradually reduced across the board so modern semi-exec and above can feel quiet and cosseting. But with that comes a reduction in all the good feedback. So again, an Elan or a 1930s something is going to be much more 'alive' under you than even a DC2...but a DC2 is probably near top-of-the-tree for anything 1990s+, and there's nothing this side of a GT3/GT4 for sale today which would come close.
havoc said:
NDNDNDND said:
I dispute that, actually - there's been a change: the move from mechanical to electronic control.
...
Yes. but you underestimate the prior changes....
The DC2 has PAS - hydraulic, admittedly, but still assisted steering. And whilst it's a good example, it's not perfect (Mk1 Focus was, surprisingly, better, for example). The move to electric assistance is something that's capable of being finessed (as Porsche have shown), even if the best EPAS still aren't as good as the best HPAS, I'll wager that good . But both are assisted, where the Elan and Bugatti weren't.
The DC2 has servo-assisted brakes. Exactly the same story...older cars didn't have assistance, so it was even more linear and uncorrupted between your input and the car's reaction.
...and as for DBW vs hydraulic throttles, are you old enough to recall throttle cables with slack in them? All of a sudden the top part of the accelerator pedal does nothing. DBW throttles CAN be tuned to be more responsive than the cable, even if the direct link is severed.
The final piece of the puzzle is NVH. NVH has gradually reduced across the board so modern semi-exec and above can feel quiet and cosseting. But with that comes a reduction in all the good feedback. So again, an Elan or a 1930s something is going to be much more 'alive' under you than even a DC2...but a DC2 is probably near top-of-the-tree for anything 1990s+, and there's nothing this side of a GT3/GT4 for sale today which would come close.
It's a fundamental shift in how you relate to the car you're driving, and a really dissatisfying one.
havoc said:
carguy45 said:
have the goalposts moved so much (in the sense of how utterly anesthetised the modern driving experience is in many cars) that even an A110 is seen as 'analogue'?
Stick them in an DC2 Integra and their mind would be blown, that's an analogue experience.
From a marketing and review perspective - yes. They have to compare against the current competition.Stick them in an DC2 Integra and their mind would be blown, that's an analogue experience.
...and whilst your comparison to the DC2 is entirely accurate, in all honesty it was ever thus. Compare a DC2 to an original Lotus Elan and the Lotus will be even more 'analogue'. Stick that Lotus next to a 1930s Bugatti and I suspect (although I've not driven one) the same theme could be levied.
Compare the Bugatti to a horse...
Its a sticky subject as for many the very idea of a Sports car was an open top 2 seater. Why open? So you can hear the tires and the exertion of the engine. For many its the gasp of the Carbs or the tone of the exhaust in that environment. The proverbial Morgan/MGB/XK/Caterham not being driven competitively, but for pleasure.
These are very solo pursuits and whilst we can all appreciate a drive under these parameters, look back at your own life and not every great driving moment or journey was defined by the car or maybe even you driving it at all?
Going by Richard Meadens definition, Porsche GT3/Singer or A110 owners should be the happiest drivers as they have the most hedonistic cars and by definition race cars, or single seaters should enhance this. Hang out at a Porsche GB meeting and by EVO's parameters these should be the better people in car culture.
NDNDNDND said:
I think you're missing the point I was making - the distinction between analogue and electronic. All the mechanisms you've described above are still mechanical and analogue. My point was that electronics entirely and literally disconnect the driver from the machinery; the inputs and outputs from the controls are quite literally no longer analogue.
It's a fundamental shift in how you relate to the car you're driving, and a really dissatisfying one.
No, I did get your point...but I don't think it matters as much as you're suggesting it does. From a feedback perspective the move from unassisted to hydraulic assistance is arguably the greater change, certainly for steering and throttle and possibly for brakes.It's a fundamental shift in how you relate to the car you're driving, and a really dissatisfying one.
DBW throttles have existed for 20+ years. And I'll challenge anyone to tell the difference, except that a (well-mapped) DBW throttle is probably more responsive than a cable throttle.
DBW brakes are an interesting one (and also a REALLY new one - most non-elecrified cars on sale still have conventional brakes) - pedal-feel / weight / resistance can again be mapped very faithfully, and TBH I've driven too many cars with horrible squishy brake pedals (and the opposite, with over-servo'd over-sensitive ones) to think that a hydraulic servo system is fantastic. Again, a well-set up system is great...but again, I'll wager that can be done with electronics.
Where I DO wonder with DBW brakes is on the limit - how easily can you tell through your foot that the brakes are locking up / does the ABS pulse come through once they do?
...and DBW steering doesn't exist as it's not legal, so you're not disconnected - it's ePAS vs hPAS, and I'll stand by my comment above - unassisted to hPAS was a big change. hPAS to ePAS, now ePAS has had time to mature, isn't as big a change at all.
sisu said:
Hang out at a Porsche GB meeting and by EVO's parameters these should be the better people in car culture.
Except in today's society I'll wager that they're the ones who drone on most about why they bought the car and how much better a driver they are...Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff