RE: BMW M135i: PH Fleet

[s m]

Scottie - NW said:

s m said:

Scottie - NW said:

MustardCutter said:

Scottie - NW said:

What type of LSD is fitted, viscous/helical etc?

Birds fit the Quaife ATB.

I know it's Quaife, the article says that, but that is the manufacturer as opposed to the type of LSD?

It's a helical gear torque apportioning diff

Thanks, am trying to learn more about diffs as the viscous LSD I have is not great.

The coupling is probably knackered if it's the original - after time and many heat/duty cycles they will 'revert' to open. You can get them recon'd and rerated but people seldom do, usually the same with plated diffs.
Advantage with Torsen diff such as the S15 runs is it basically fit and forget

[161BMW]

skylarking808 said:

Having had a couple of older Beemers with a mechanical LSD I can believe there is a positive difference to the M135i.

It seems those who have had cars with this set up become coverts as it helps with everyday driving as well as controlling those hoonigan moments. The way they assist with pulling out of junctions or tug you around a corner is excellent.

I am not sure if big fat tyres or modern suspension set ups on modern vehicles diminishes the need for one though - ran my cars on standard Mtech suspension and 205 width tyres.

Birds have always had a decent reputation for improving suspension without ruining a car for road use.

Did you have an E30 325i by any chance ? How did you find it ? What was it like to drive ? You had LSD yeah ?

[Tomatogti]

tomcrowther said:

Tomatogti said:

Yes it definitely needs one and yes it's to differentiate it from the full fat M cars (doesn't have 4 pipes or a bonnet bulge either). I've just changed my right rear tyre as it was through all the rubber on the inside whilst the centre was only worm a couple of mm and this is just road use. So i think it should be the first upgrade people make. Having had a couple of kids whilst owning it I couldn't justify the outlay but had (a few of) my numbers come up then I would have been straight to Birds. It's got plenty of power so doesn't need a chip really.

If you've mullered the inner shoulder of your tire and the remainder is still okay then I'd suggest you've got problems that aren't related to an open diff

Yes, valid point! Though it's only happened since a change in my daily journey included a very tight right hand exit from a t junction resulting in spinning up the inside wheel. It spins up violently and is definitely the reason, I think the overall slow speed and full lock turn combined with this may put a lot of force on the edge causing it (which may happen less in a higher speed spin up) though I will get the camber etc checked!

[skylarking808]

161BMW said:

skylarking808 said:

Having had a couple of older Beemers with a mechanical LSD I can believe there is a positive difference to the M135i.

It seems those who have had cars with this set up become coverts as it helps with everyday driving as well as controlling those hoonigan moments. The way they assist with pulling out of junctions or tug you around a corner is excellent.

I am not sure if big fat tyres or modern suspension set ups on modern vehicles diminishes the need for one though - ran my cars on standard Mtech suspension and 205 width tyres.

Birds have always had a decent reputation for improving suspension without ruining a car for road use.

Did you have an E30 325i by any chance ? How did you find it ? What was it like to drive ? You had LSD yeah ?

---

Well one of them was an E30, but it was a 318i sport.
It came with the standard Mtech LSD and suspension.
Despite only 136 bhp and 14" alloys it was an real hoot, Very chuckable and light. The smaller engine gave good balance for driving on the throttle.
I think an LSD was an option for non sport 325s also, like with the early E36 cars (until 1996)

[anonymous-user]

skylarking808 said:

Birds have always had a decent reputation for improving suspension without ruining a car for road use.

This is absolutely true. I have tried various BMW's with aftermarket dampers but none of them felt as 'factory' as the Birds kit. It's not cheap but it does take into account the rubbish roads and puts traction ahead of ultimate track performance. It is firm yet compliant enough to use every day, it just feels like a well setup car. You don't notice anything particularly which is the best compliment I can pay it.

[xjay1337]

yonex said:

xjay1337 said:

It'll be an atb helical if Quaife I believe.

lsd is pointless for a road car. Many performance cars don't come with an lsd .
Costs as well. This is a cut price junior supercar.

I'd consider a m135i , but the zf auto suits the car better.

That's just total nonsense. After fitting an LSD to the 130 the difference is night and day, I cannot understand how anyone with a moderately powerful RWD car would ever want an open diff? It's weird how BMW choose to fit proper LSD's to the M cars, I guess they must disagree with you as well

You think you are being smart?
I said road car
It's not an M (read performance) model.


So it's not weird at all. Diff costs around 1k for aftermarket. From factory costs would be double that.

I'm sure Mclaren can tell you otherwise.

I know full well the benefits. But for normal driving most normal people wouldn't tell the difference.

[Manchestergas]

Having a plated diff fitted to my 7 at considerably more cost to the quaife atb unit at the moment (when we can find one, even brand new there like hens teeth). In the caterham world the quaife atb is frowned upon to some degree. something along the lines of "it doesn't like kerb hoping on track and can cause premiture failure of the prop or drive shaft because of this (one or the other)

Having spoken to multiple motorsport garages on the topic they all say plated is the way forward be it titan or gripper. Yes they eventually ware and need a rebuild but I could not ignore what I had researched. Road only the spanner men said the quaife is ok, go near a track and you want plated.

Maybe it's because of how light the 7 is, I'm not sure at all.

[anonymous-user]

xjay1337 said:

You think you are being smart?
I said road car
It's not an M (read performance) model.


So it's not weird at all. Diff costs around 1k for aftermarket. From factory costs would be double that.

I'm sure Mclaren can tell you otherwise.

I know full well the benefits. But for normal driving most normal people wouldn't tell the difference.

No, I am saying that anyone who anyone who actually enjoys driving would be able to tell the difference? An M car is still a road car, it is not a highly focused track refugee, I have owned an M3 and can state this with some certainty. In your logic a 'road car' doesn't need to exceed 70mph, could be front wheel drive and have the dynamics of a shopping trolley, in reality that is not the case. I am unsure why you have mentioned Mclaren, we are discussing spending approximately £2K on a 135i to make it far more enjoyable in anything other than dry conditions, in fact the LSD is also more fun in the dry as well but let's not get into that.

Given that this is PH, and given the intended use, how can you say it is irrelevant in a road car. It's just not true.

[xjay1337]

yonex said:

No, I am saying that anyone who anyone who actually enjoys driving would be able to tell the difference? An M car is still a road car, it is not a highly focused track refugee, I have owned an M3 and can state this with some certainty. In your logic a 'road car' doesn't need to exceed 70mph, could be front wheel drive and have the dynamics of a shopping trolley, in reality that is not the case. I am unsure why you have mentioned Mclaren, we are discussing spending approximately £2K on a 135i to make it far more enjoyable in anything other than dry conditions, in fact the LSD is also more fun in the dry as well but let's not get into that.

Given that this is PH, and given the intended use, how can you say it is irrelevant in a road car. It's just not true.

Let's just agree to disagree.

[anonymous-user]

xjay1337 said:

Let's just agree to disagree.

You can't say it's pointless and not back it up!

[xjay1337]

yonex said:

You can't say it's pointless and not back it up!

I didnt say it was pointless outright.
I clarified that by adding caveats (IE on a car to be leased out and driven by normal people not on a b road blast) and further explained why LSD wasn't standard on the car or many other cars.

I can't be bothered to argue with you. Have better things to do

[windymissile]

I fitted a M Factory LSD (Quaife style) to my 335i a couple of years ago.
http://store.teammfactory.com/e9x-335i-2007-2013-m...

Superb modification. Really changes the way the power is put down coming out of a corner.
For the pittance it would cost the OEM, any car making decent power should come with one from the factory.

WM

[nickfrog]

yonex said:

xjay1337 said:

Let's just agree to disagree.

You can't say it's pointless and not back it up!

Guys you're both reasonable blokes so it's possible you're both right.

I sit exactly in the middle (on the gear stick probably).

The M135i is better in the wet with the LSD. But I am not sure it's that relevant or at least not in my case living in SE England where the main cause of frustration on the open road is far from being tractive limitations!

On the other hand, in the dry, the traction is surprisingly good with the open diff courtesy of the SS and the soft suspension ; sometimes upgrading the suspension actually removes that traction enhancing softness so suddenly the LSD looks like a good idea.

At Spa on a stock car I was only (slightly) traction limited through the bust stop chicane in second. Short shifting would solve that without much detriment and still allow a 3:00 dead which is astounding for a stock road car / shopping trolley on road tyres.

[Toed64]

If you'd like to go quicker and save yourself some money: get a proper job done by Jason at BW Chiptune in Hayes.

The Quaife is a massive improvement over the OE open diff with nannies, but a Wavetrac is better, especially if you want to use a decent rear ARB:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E4wY2NoJ6f8

Edited by Toed64 on Thursday 2nd November 23:30

Edited by Toed64 on Thursday 2nd November 23:31

[anonymous-user]

DELETED: Comment made by a member who's account has been deleted.

It's hardly the same level of technology though. It's a shame BMW didn't fit the LSD as std. For me it's something I'd always retro fit, especially given the potential of the 135/40

[Peppka]

I fitted Q2 diffs to both my V6 Alfas GTV and GT makes a huge difference setting off at T junctions and coming out of roundabouts don't have the inside wheel spinning without the diff on both cars, if road surface is at all greasy or a slight shower half throttle is enough to set the inside wheel spinning away. A Q2 diff for an Alfa is less than £700 plus fitting so shouldn't be more than £1k fitted, best money you can spend on any car with power FRD or RWD IMO.

[GFWilliams]

It's the next thing on my list to do to my Exige, on track on both second and third gear corners it just spins up an inside wheel as you start to apply the power and you feel like you're just waiting as the car doesn't accelerate at all. Also, I want to do big drifts...

[cerb4.5lee]

wormus said:

cerb4.5lee said:

That's always baffled me too, my old 200sx couldn't even manage 200bhp as standard...yet it still came with a LSD from the factory.

Same with the Monaro.

It will certainly need one with the power yours is running!

[FTW]

Sylvaforever said:

Fairly amazing you have to shell out a four figure sum to make it drive and handle properly

And you haven't finished either.

I wonder if this is such a good advert for BMW as you obviously think it is....

Its a good advert for M2 in my mind. The level of the ///M department have done between the m135i and M2 is significant. To finalise this experiment will PH be doing a group test with a standard M135i, the PH car and an M2?

[Scottie - NW]

s m said:

Scottie - NW said:

s m said:

Scottie - NW said:

MustardCutter said:

Scottie - NW said:

What type of LSD is fitted, viscous/helical etc?

Birds fit the Quaife ATB.

I know it's Quaife, the article says that, but that is the manufacturer as opposed to the type of LSD?

It's a helical gear torque apportioning diff

Thanks, am trying to learn more about diffs as the viscous LSD I have is not great.

The coupling is probably knackered if it's the original - after time and many heat/duty cycles they will 'revert' to open. You can get them recon'd and rerated but people seldom do, usually the same with plated diffs.
Advantage with Torsen diff such as the S15 runs is it basically fit and forget

Thanks am keeping my eye out for a S15 helical diff to upgrade to. I did look at rebuilding an after market diff into the original casing, some good manufacturers do kits, I was warned a 2 way is track only really and you have to alter your driving style to suit, whereas a 1.5 way is much better.

At my level though I think a S15 helical is a nice upgrade.