Bmw 4 series spun out of control m25

[popeyewhite]

Tomthespesh said:

I vaguely remember that Top Gear, wasn't it against a Golf R/R32? So 4WD vs RWD in the wet. Any powerful RWD in the wet will bite you if you're not paying attention it's not exclusively BMWs.

Some are worse than others. I have owned a few rwd cars, couple of M cars, a 911, a few AMGs...The BMWs were the least 'safe' of the lot in the wet. The high powerband and lack of torque meant you had to dwell in the 'twitchy zone' if you wanted to push on. Not so with the other rwd cars I've owned.

[RobM77]

popeyewhite said:

Tomthespesh said:

I vaguely remember that Top Gear, wasn't it against a Golf R/R32? So 4WD vs RWD in the wet. Any powerful RWD in the wet will bite you if you're not paying attention it's not exclusively BMWs.

Some are worse than others. I have owned a few rwd cars, couple of M cars, a 911, a few AMGs...The BMWs were the least 'safe' of the lot in the wet. The high powerband and lack of torque meant you had to dwell in the 'twitchy zone' if you wanted to push on. Not so with the other rwd cars I've owned.

The controls on modern BMs don't help to be fair; jumpy throttle response on their petrol models, clutch delay valves across the board, soft thick steering wheels giving little feel with often badly tuned ePAS, and a jiggly ride that often doesn't keep the tyres pressed into the road (thus the DSC issues discussed above).

Edited by RobM77 on Monday 1st October 14:54

[RemyMartin81D]

Until you've experienced lift off oversteer in a 1980/90s torsion bar equipped French hatch, you've not experienced stty knickers.

Mine actually successfully killed me over three times.

[Chestrockwell]

RobM77 said:

I'm on my 6th BMW over 16 years, the latest one with modified suspension, and I wouldn't describe any of them as 'twitchy', with the possible exception of my Z4 Coupé in the wet. However, it's generally the case that the better the balance and the nicer a car handles, the more there's the possibility of it biting you. If driven unsympathetically, any car will bite you (my wife spun her Ka once!). An Audi A4 or Ford Mondeo that pitches its soft front end and doggedly understeers is less likely to bite you than a 4 series that has an inherent natural balance and rear drive. Even staying within the FE/RWD layout, an MX5 is more likely to bite you than a 4 series, and a Caterham much more likely still. It must be said though that the rewards to driving those cars I've listed increase as you go through the list.

I think that’s what it is, I’ll give an example of when I realised how well balanced the car is, and how bloody good it is at corners.

My job is shift work, so I find myself driving home at 12am at least 3 times a week, lots of clear roads with nice bends and while I never zoom home as Its not very safe and there’s always foxes and dears running out into the roads.

Whenever I see a bend, I’d stay at 40 instead of slowing down and It doesn’t phase me or the car, doesn’t even feel like I’m going too fast, until I got in a 320d x drive luxury, my god, the biggest difference was the seats, I would slide from side to side in the seats and you’d lean into the corners with the car, it was night and day difference. I never realised how good my car wasn’t until I drove a non m sport without the sport seats.

So your point is, the 4 series or any M sport RWD BMW is so good at these things, you forget the limits and depend on the car. It is a good point and it’s true, I do, however I’ve never over estimated the handling or anything because I’ve never truly pushed it beyond its limits.

When I spun out at 90 in the wet, to me, I didn’t think it was unsafe, I was completely oblivious and I nearly paid the price.

As for the twitching, every BMW I’ve owned has can easily be unsettled on a cold bumpy wet road where the 1 merc I’ve owned and the few I’ve driven don’t feel like that, they just absorb the bumps and carry on, don’t even feel the rear wheels slipping! Apart from one CLK430 I had but that had something wrong with it, that was pretty dodgy

[RobM77]

Chestrockwell said:

So your point is, the 4 series or any M sport RWD BMW is so good at these things, you forget the limits and depend on the car. It is a good point and it’s true, I do, however I’ve never over estimated the handling or anything because I’ve never truly pushed it beyond its limits.

Nope - I never said that and I disagree strongly with that statement. What I said was that generally speaking (it's not always the case), the more a car rewards the driver, the finer balance it tends to have and the more easily this balance can be upset. More people lose control of Elises and 911s than Audis or Fords. A BMW 4 series has a much better balance than a Mondeo, both inherently (static weight dist) and dynamically in its setup, so whilst I wouldn't call it twitchy in an absolute sense, for sure it's going to be easier to spin than a nose heavy front driver.

However, I never commented on driving without attention to or respect for the car's behaviour. From your own point of view, psychologically, this is no doubt what has happened. Confidence built in the dry didn't translate into the wet. This is why it's dangerous to drive without respect to a car's limits - all cars have limits.

Edited by RobM77 on Monday 1st October 15:49

[Filibuster]

You do like that car, don't you?

I know the feeling of thinking one owns car is the best one ever, I do the same!
So by definition, you're car can't possibly be as good as mine, since my car is the best ever!

[Chestrockwell]

Filibuster said:

You do like that car, don't you?

I know the feeling of thinking one owns car is the best one ever, I do the same!
So by definition, you're car can't possibly be as good as mine, since my car is the best ever!

Hahaha I really do! I’ve thought about changing it so many times, every time It comes down to it, I decide to keep it as it’s so good at what it does, a client of mine who’s in the car industry and has driven everything you can name said ‘you’re going to struggle to replace that car’ and he’s right, 5 secs 0-60, 420 lbft, minimum of 30mpg and all the creature comforts you could wish for.

[Filibuster]

RobM77 said:

Confidence built in the dry didn't translate into the wet. This is why it's dangerous to drive without respect to a car's limits - all cars have limits.

This! But not only the cars, also the drivers have different limits.
Also at this point I'd like to say that I consider myself a good driver. I say so not because I am a driving god, but because I know my limits and I know the limits of my cars. There are drivers with much higher limits than me, Walter Röhrl springs to mind
Also anticipating and reading other drivers helps indefinitely.

As others have said already, doing driving courses can vastly improve your driving and really open your eyes!
Doing so with a track instructor will be by far the cheapest way to improve lap times, btw!

[RobM77]

Filibuster said:

RobM77 said:

Confidence built in the dry didn't translate into the wet. This is why it's dangerous to drive without respect to a car's limits - all cars have limits.

This! But not only the cars, also the drivers have different limits.
Also at this point I'd like to say that I consider myself a good driver. I say so not because I am a driving god, but because I know my limits and I know the limits of my cars. There are drivers with much higher limits than me, Walter Röhrl springs to mind
Also anticipating and reading other drivers helps indefinitely.

As others have said already, doing driving courses can vastly improve your driving and really open your eyes!
Doing so with a track instructor will be by far the cheapest way to improve lap times, btw!

I used to have lots of discussions about this on the Advanced Driving forum; they say track experience isn't at all relevant to road driving, but I think certain elements of it is. I'm lucky enough to have raced cars for my whole adult life, and through that experience I have a good feel for how much grip is at each corner of the car, the car's balance, and how all the controls affect those things. I simply can't imagine driving a car without those senses, for me that is driving, - I guess it's how I feel when I sail a boat (something I'm learning to do at the moment), and that's something I currently only do in large open spaces due to lack of ability! I personally believe that every driver should have at least a rudimentary understanding of what affects grip and balance and some start towards feeling these things in a car. Without that, you're just setting yourself arbitrary limits, which has two consequences: 1) they're arbitrary and 2) you can be mistaken in your assessment, such as the OP was when translating dry grip to wet grip.

[Filibuster]

RobM77 said:

Filibuster said:

RobM77 said:

Confidence built in the dry didn't translate into the wet. This is why it's dangerous to drive without respect to a car's limits - all cars have limits.

This! But not only the cars, also the drivers have different limits.
Also at this point I'd like to say that I consider myself a good driver. I say so not because I am a driving god, but because I know my limits and I know the limits of my cars. There are drivers with much higher limits than me, Walter Röhrl springs to mind
Also anticipating and reading other drivers helps indefinitely.

As others have said already, doing driving courses can vastly improve your driving and really open your eyes!
Doing so with a track instructor will be by far the cheapest way to improve lap times, btw!

I used to have lots of discussions about this on the Advanced Driving forum; they say track experience isn't at all relevant to road driving, but I think certain elements of it is. I'm lucky enough to have raced cars for my whole adult life, and through that experience I have a good feel for how much grip is at each corner of the car, the car's balance, and how all the controls affect those things. I simply can't imagine driving a car without those senses, for me that is driving, - I guess it's how I feel when I sail a boat (something I'm learning to do at the moment), and that's something I currently only do in large open spaces due to lack of ability! I personally believe that every driver should have at least a rudimentary understanding of what affects grip and balance and some start towards feeling these things in a car. Without that, you're just setting yourself arbitrary limits, which has two consequences: 1) they're arbitrary and 2) you can be mistaken in your assessment, such as the OP was when translating dry grip to wet grip.

I'm with you 100% !
I meant to differentiate in my post above between "safety driving courses" and "track driving courses" or "sport driving courses".
You surely get the biggest margin improvement for day to day road driving from the basic safety driving course, imo. Everything above that level is not interesting for 99% of drivers out there.
IMHO a basic safety driving course on a wet track with a kick plate should be mandatory to get your license!

[RobM77]

Filibuster said:

RobM77 said:

Filibuster said:

RobM77 said:

Confidence built in the dry didn't translate into the wet. This is why it's dangerous to drive without respect to a car's limits - all cars have limits.

This! But not only the cars, also the drivers have different limits.
Also at this point I'd like to say that I consider myself a good driver. I say so not because I am a driving god, but because I know my limits and I know the limits of my cars. There are drivers with much higher limits than me, Walter Röhrl springs to mind
Also anticipating and reading other drivers helps indefinitely.

As others have said already, doing driving courses can vastly improve your driving and really open your eyes!
Doing so with a track instructor will be by far the cheapest way to improve lap times, btw!

I used to have lots of discussions about this on the Advanced Driving forum; they say track experience isn't at all relevant to road driving, but I think certain elements of it is. I'm lucky enough to have raced cars for my whole adult life, and through that experience I have a good feel for how much grip is at each corner of the car, the car's balance, and how all the controls affect those things. I simply can't imagine driving a car without those senses, for me that is driving, - I guess it's how I feel when I sail a boat (something I'm learning to do at the moment), and that's something I currently only do in large open spaces due to lack of ability! I personally believe that every driver should have at least a rudimentary understanding of what affects grip and balance and some start towards feeling these things in a car. Without that, you're just setting yourself arbitrary limits, which has two consequences: 1) they're arbitrary and 2) you can be mistaken in your assessment, such as the OP was when translating dry grip to wet grip.

I'm with you 100% !
I meant to differentiate in my post above between "safety driving courses" and "track driving courses" or "sport driving courses".
You surely get the biggest margin improvement for day to day road driving from the basic safety driving course, imo. Everything above that level is not interesting for 99% of drivers out there.
IMHO a basic safety driving course on a wet track with a kick plate should be mandatory to get your license!

I think the biggest contributions to safer road driving are observation and forward planning, both of which are huge topics in their own right. Given limited time, this is what police drivers are taught and this is what IAM and RoSPA focus on. However, yes, I believe that understanding how a car handles and driving sympathetically is also vitally important, particularly if you're keen on driving and are going to be upping the pace where safe to do so (because you do need to be safe to do so!). However, to get back to my core point, I know drivers who don't really drive that fast but scare me, purely because none of their control inputs work together or are sympathetic to the car (for example, accelerating without lessening steering lock).

[syl]

randomeddy said:

I think you have explained why it happened all on your own.

Yes cars have 'improved' over the years. The one piece of machinery that has not improved is the one holding the steering wheel.

You might think so, yet the driving test gets things added to it frequently (theory test, hazard perception, etc), athletics world records are being broken all the time and students seem to do better year on year in their GCSEs. Why aren't drivers constantly improving?

[deckster]

syl said:

You might think so, yet the driving test gets things added to it frequently (theory test, hazard perception, etc), athletics world records are being broken all the time and students seem to do better year on year in their exams. Why aren't drivers constantly improving?

Why do you think they're not? Ignoring the Daily Mail-type "the roads are full of maniacs/imbeciles" (delete according to preference), accident rates continue to decline despite increasing vehicle usage, and anecdotally my experience of being driven by my nephews and nieces is that they are far safer drivers than me and my friends were 25 years ago.

There are of course many factors to consider - both passive and active safety systems in cars, plus of course what you personally might consider to be 'good driving' - but from a purely empirical perspective it's not at all obvious that the average driver these days isn't 'better' than they used to be.

[syl]

Chestrockwell said:

Now I will say that this has taught me a lesson on speeding, I need to take it easy, there isn’t and that extra 20 mph would have saved me, what, 10 minutes? Also if the road was busy, it may have been a lot worse and I could have been respo.....never again.

Let's say you save 25% of your time. Over a 60 year driving career, that would be almost a year of your life saved, so it's not to be sniffed at.

[syl]

deckster said:

Why do you think they're not? Ignoring the Daily Mail-type "the roads are full of maniacs/imbeciles" (delete according to preference), accident rates continue to decline despite increasing vehicle usage, and anecdotally my experience of being driven by my nephews and nieces is that they are far safer drivers than me and my friends were 25 years ago.

There are of course many factors to consider - both passive and active safety systems in cars, plus of course what you personally might consider to be 'good driving' - but from a purely empirical perspective it's not at all obvious that the average driver these days isn't 'better' than they used to be.

I do. That was my point.

[Monty Python]

I've seen this happen a couple of times on the M53 - cars embedded in the central reservation crash barrier. In both cases they were FWD hatchbacks - a Corsa in one instance and a Peugeot 308 in the other.

[neil1jnr]

RemyMartin81D said:

Until you've experienced lift off oversteer in a 1980/90s torsion bar equipped French hatch, you've not experienced stty knickers.

Mine actually successfully killed me over three times.

This. I almost completely lost it in numerous occasions with lift off over steer when I had my Citroen Saxo many moons ago. I've driven plenty BMW's and have done nearly 3K miles in my current 535d and I've never had a scare. If you keep TC on when it's wet it might twitch but you are expecting it and it isn't scary. I've nearly no issues with traction either, the car can accelerate at a reasonable pace in the wet without the traction light flickering, you just have to be progressive with the throttle and get a 'feel' for your car when it's RWD.

[deckster]

syl said:

deckster said:

Why do you think they're not? Ignoring the Daily Mail-type "the roads are full of maniacs/imbeciles" (delete according to preference), accident rates continue to decline despite increasing vehicle usage, and anecdotally my experience of being driven by my nephews and nieces is that they are far safer drivers than me and my friends were 25 years ago.

There are of course many factors to consider - both passive and active safety systems in cars, plus of course what you personally might consider to be 'good driving' - but from a purely empirical perspective it's not at all obvious that the average driver these days isn't 'better' than they used to be.

I do. That was my point.

D'oh. Yeah, I agree