RE: Lotus Exige Cup 430: Driven

[Onehp]

Audemars said:

Yes Im getting the Sport version to be my "family" car.

Great info on the rear seat, that would definitely be a reason to go Evora. That and ps4s tyres instead of the cup2's, most of my best drives happen in less than perfectly dry circumstances...

[SidewaysSi]

corozin said:

SidewaysSi said:

corozin said:

£100k really is a lot of money for a Lotus. It would need to be made from a carbon shell with unicorn tears to justify that price in my book. I can't imagine where the market for this car is. A new Atom is £60,000 less and still has a better power to weight ratio due to it weighing almost 500kg less.

Seriously, how the hell do Lotus get something as small as an Exige to weigh 1100kg? Did they put lead in it?

What are you on about? Are you genuinely comparing this to an Atom? Why not compare it to a Phantom FFS?

Do I really need to explain it? Have you ever had either a sports car or a track car?

Yes please explain in sufficient detail why someone would cross shop an Exige against am Atom. Or Caterham even.

As for your second question, yes I have 3 trackable cars at the moment...

As for your second question

[kambites]

Thorburn said:

I don't think this is the case.

http://www.carmagazine.co.uk/car-reviews/lotus/lot...
"Unlike the Evora 400 and 410. the Exige retains a standard open differential rather than a limited-slip diff, and on a patchily damp circuit it did spin its inside rear occasionally at the exit of a hairpin – and in the middle of the bus-stop chicane that punctuates Hethel’s back straight. An LSD would have weighed 5kg extra, says Gales, and cost more too."

Same for the Cup 430:
http://www.carmagazine.co.uk/car-reviews/lotus/lot...
"Like the rest of the Exige range, the Cup 430 doesn’t have a limited-slip diff. ‘To fit one would have taken another year to adapt the Bosch ESP,’ Gales says. ‘The traction control and downforce compensate.’"

Seems odd since I thought the Evora 400 onwards used a similar ESP system and an LSD.

Edit: 3-11 has an LSD as well?

It's the Cup 380 not the Sport 380 which has a limited slip diff. Lotus's models are bloody confusing sometimes.

In the "engine" section, curiously: http://www.lotuscars.com/exige-cup-380

Curious really, that there is no "best" Exige; you either have the choose the Cup 380 to get an LSD or the Cup 430 to get more power but you can't have both?

Edited by kambites on Thursday 16th November 07:14

[gigglebug]

kambites said:

It's the Cup 380 not the Sport 380 which has a limited slip diff. Lotus's models are bloody confusing sometimes.

In the "engine" section, curiously: http://www.lotuscars.com/exige-cup-380

Curious really, that there is no "best" Exige; you either have the choose the Cup 380 to get an LSD or the Cup 430 to get more power but you can't have both?

Edited by kambites on Thursday 16th November 07:14

One way of further distinguishing it from the Evora GT430 and keeping that top of the tree maybe? All I can think off.

[Ares]

SidewaysSi said:

corozin said:

£100k really is a lot of money for a Lotus. It would need to be made from a carbon shell with unicorn tears to justify that price in my book. I can't imagine where the market for this car is. A new Atom is £60,000 less and still has a better power to weight ratio due to it weighing almost 500kg less.

Seriously, how the hell do Lotus get something as small as an Exige to weigh 1100kg? Did they put lead in it?

What are you on about? Are you genuinely comparing this to an Atom? Why not compare it to a Phantom FFS?

Or a motorbike.

[Ares]

corozin said:

SidewaysSi said:

corozin said:

£100k really is a lot of money for a Lotus. It would need to be made from a carbon shell with unicorn tears to justify that price in my book. I can't imagine where the market for this car is. A new Atom is £60,000 less and still has a better power to weight ratio due to it weighing almost 500kg less.

Seriously, how the hell do Lotus get something as small as an Exige to weigh 1100kg? Did they put lead in it?

What are you on about? Are you genuinely comparing this to an Atom? Why not compare it to a Phantom FFS?

Do I really need to explain it? Have you ever had either a sports car or a track car?

I had an Exige as a daily driver. Did 35,000 miles in two years. European trips with luggage, daily commute, track days.

Not sure an Atom would be quite as suitable.

Flip side. And again, If the Exige 430 is so overpriced, what car can do what it can for less?

[Thorburn]

kambites said:

It's the Cup 380 not the Sport 380 which has a limited slip diff. Lotus's models are bloody confusing sometimes.

In the "engine" section, curiously: http://www.lotuscars.com/exige-cup-380

Curious really, that there is no "best" Exige; you either have the choose the Cup 380 to get an LSD or the Cup 430 to get more power but you can't have both?

Edited by kambites on Thursday 16th November 07:14

That isn't a Limited Slip Differential, it is the electronics applying the brake to the unloaded wheel. All of Lotus' cars now have this.

For example, on the Exige Sport 350 page: BOSCH Electronic Differential Lock [EDL] - Standard
And the Elise Sport (1.6): Electronic Differential Lock (EDL) - Standard

[Atomic12C]

The shift away from mechanical diffs by manufacturers is probably a weight and cost issue, but surely surely when a track focused car is being produced then a mechanical diff is what the market wants ?

Otherwise you end up going through brake discs/pads at an alarming rate and you don't get a 'connected/predictable' feel to how the car is going to break traction.
This is the problem I've had with my 12C, it feels different at the grip limit every time, unless you intentionally give it OTT power to break tracion by a large amount, then its predictable. But playing with the car on the limit always results in a fight with the electronics.
This can be fun for some, but I much prefer the mechanical diffs for the correct connection between driver, tyre and road surface limits.

[RobM77]

Atomic12C said:

The shift away from mechanical diffs by manufacturers is probably a weight and cost issue, but surely surely when a track focused car is being produced then a mechanical diff is what the market wants ?

Otherwise you end up going through brake discs/pads at an alarming rate and you don't get a 'connected/predictable' feel to how the car is going to break traction.
This is the problem I've had with my 12C, it feels different at the grip limit every time, unless you intentionally give it OTT power to break tracion by a large amount, then its predictable. But playing with the car on the limit always results in a fight with the electronics.
This can be fun for some, but I much prefer the mechanical diffs for the correct connection between driver, tyre and road surface limits.

I too don't like braking of the rear wheels to aid traction. However, whilst I can't speak for a 400bhp+ Exige V6, my 2-Eleven and Elise certainly didn't need a mechanical LSD. I drove both flat out at track days and never really wanted for extra traction. The rear engined layout has a lot to answer for here. The only thing I didn't get to try was my 2-Eleven on a wet track, only the Elise.

[Onehp]

Purely mechanical diffs are a pain to calibrate with the electronic stability and traction systems, as a mechanical diff will both act differently depending on the circumstances, but also react to any brake input by the esp. Next step is then electronically controlled mechanical diffs (clutch type) that won't interfere is the esp is trying to control e.g. a slide. Which are expensive for small scale products.

Not entirely comparable, but similar dilemma, esp can't help on traction on a manual trying to get away with poor clutch control, or stop a skid from happening when the driver lets go of the clutch in a (much) too low gear...

[RobM77]

Onehp said:

Purely mechanical diffs are a pain to calibrate with the electronic stability and traction systems, as a mechanical diff will both act differently depending on the circumstances, but also react to any brake input by the esp. Next step is then electronically controlled mechanical diffs (clutch type) that won't interfere is the esp is trying to control e.g. a slide. Which are expensive for small scale products.

Not entirely comparable, but similar dilemma, esp can't help on traction on a manual trying to get away with poor clutch control, or stop a skid from happening when the driver lets go of the clutch in a (much) too low gear...

Out of interest, how does ESP cope when mechanical LSDs are added to BMWs, for example the Quaiffe diffs offered by respected tuner Birds?

[GFWilliams]

RobM77 said:

I too don't like braking of the rear wheels to aid traction. However, whilst I can't speak for a 400bhp+ Exige V6, my 2-Eleven and Elise certainly didn't need a mechanical LSD. I drove both flat out at track days and never really wanted for extra traction. The rear engined layout has a lot to answer for here. The only thing I didn't get to try was my 2-Eleven on a wet track, only the Elise.

When my Exige was 350hp it didn't really need an LSD. At 460hp it's pretty frustrating without one on track.

[dunc_sx]

Ares said:

Are you sure? A Cayman S couldn't keep up with me in a NA S2 Exige on several circuits in 2007/2008. Double the power and I can't think it would be anything other than light and day?

Cayman S (2007) and Exige NA (2006) are as near as makes no difference the same pace on track in my experience (same driver/same track/same day - identical lap time). On a longer track the Cayman might have an advantage.

Dunc.

[RobM77]

dunc_sx said:

Ares said:

Are you sure? A Cayman S couldn't keep up with me in a NA S2 Exige on several circuits in 2007/2008. Double the power and I can't think it would be anything other than light and day?

Cayman S (2007) and Exige NA (2006) are as near as makes no difference the same pace on track in my experience (same driver/same track/same day - identical lap time). On a longer track the Cayman might have an advantage.

Dunc.

This is always completely dependent on the driver.

[RobM77]

GFWilliams said:

RobM77 said:

I too don't like braking of the rear wheels to aid traction. However, whilst I can't speak for a 400bhp+ Exige V6, my 2-Eleven and Elise certainly didn't need a mechanical LSD. I drove both flat out at track days and never really wanted for extra traction. The rear engined layout has a lot to answer for here. The only thing I didn't get to try was my 2-Eleven on a wet track, only the Elise.

When my Exige was 350hp it didn't really need an LSD. At 460hp it's pretty frustrating without one on track.

Thanks, that's interesting. I'm guessing circa 400bhp is the point where one becomes necessary.

[Ares]

RobM77 said:

dunc_sx said:

Ares said:

Are you sure? A Cayman S couldn't keep up with me in a NA S2 Exige on several circuits in 2007/2008. Double the power and I can't think it would be anything other than light and day?

Cayman S (2007) and Exige NA (2006) are as near as makes no difference the same pace on track in my experience (same driver/same track/same day - identical lap time). On a longer track the Cayman might have an advantage.

Dunc.

This is always completely dependent on the driver.

Very true. I'm not the ultimate driver, but I was faster than a friend in his 2006 Cayman S at Croft, the Ring, Bedford, Angelesey and Knockhill. Then very similar at Donnington and Oulton Park. Unsurprising when the cars have very similar PWR but the Cayman is getting on for 50% heavier.

Double the Exige's power and the difference would be significant to my old NA Exige.

[Pauly-b]

Ares said:

Very true. I'm not the ultimate driver, but I was faster than a friend in his 2006 Cayman S at Croft, the Ring, Bedford, Angelesey and Knockhill. Then very similar at Donnington and Oulton Park. Unsurprising when the cars have very similar PWR but the Cayman is getting on for 50% heavier.

Double the Exige's power and the difference would be significant to my old NA Exige.

I thought an NA Exige S2 has about about 190 bhp or am I getting that wrong?

[RobM77]

Ares said:

RobM77 said:

dunc_sx said:

Ares said:

Are you sure? A Cayman S couldn't keep up with me in a NA S2 Exige on several circuits in 2007/2008. Double the power and I can't think it would be anything other than light and day?

Cayman S (2007) and Exige NA (2006) are as near as makes no difference the same pace on track in my experience (same driver/same track/same day - identical lap time). On a longer track the Cayman might have an advantage.

Dunc.

This is always completely dependent on the driver.

Very true. I'm not the ultimate driver, but I was faster than a friend in his 2006 Cayman S at Croft, the Ring, Bedford, Angelesey and Knockhill. Then very similar at Donnington and Oulton Park. Unsurprising when the cars have very similar PWR but the Cayman is getting on for 50% heavier.

Double the Exige's power and the difference would be significant to my old NA Exige.

I suspect the Exige produces more lateral grip due to suspension more tuned for outright grip and circuit use than a Cayman S. Exiges normally run stickier tyres than a Cayman too, and often bespoke for the car.

Interestingly, my 2-Eleven was faster than any other Lotus I was on track with, including two Exige V6 Cups at Goodwood a while ago (they have the same 0-100mph time as my 2-Eleven), and one of those was being driven by a guy who races regularly. I guess, as you say, weight has a huge impact - even if power makes up for the difference in weight in a straight line you've still got braking, changing direction and to some extent outright grip (tyre load sensitivity).

[Ares]

Pauly-b said:

Ares said:

Very true. I'm not the ultimate driver, but I was faster than a friend in his 2006 Cayman S at Croft, the Ring, Bedford, Angelesey and Knockhill. Then very similar at Donnington and Oulton Park. Unsurprising when the cars have very similar PWR but the Cayman is getting on for 50% heavier.

Double the Exige's power and the difference would be significant to my old NA Exige.

I thought an NA Exige S2 has about about 190 bhp or am I getting that wrong?

197 as per the dyno mine went on. Both have c200bhp/tonne (Cayman at just under 300bhp and just under 1500kg?)

[Ares]

RobM77 said:

I suspect the Exige produces more lateral grip due to suspension more tuned for outright grip and circuit use than a Cayman S. Exiges normally run stickier tyres than a Cayman too, and often bespoke for the car.

Interestingly, my 2-Eleven was faster than any other Lotus I was on track with, including two Exige V6 Cups at Goodwood a while ago (they have the same 0-100mph time as my 2-Eleven), and one of those was being driven by a guy who races regularly. I guess, as you say, weight has a huge impact - even if power makes up for the difference in weight in a straight line you've still got braking, changing direction and to some extent outright grip (tyre load sensitivity).

Exactly. Even with the same/similar PWR the Exige was a lot better dynamically.

Ditto my Caterham. c320bhp/tonne with me on board but was a lot faster that other similar PWR cars on RMA track days