Rip off garages alive and well.
Discussion
Rat_Fink_67 said:
One thing that always interests me on threads like these, is how much do people think mechanics/technicians earn, and how much do think they should be earning?
With most people's desire to pay next to nothing as an hourly rate, and begrudge every penny spent on repairs and maintenance, I often wonder whether the same people also begrudge those in the trade trying to earn a living too?
What with Pistonheads being a near 50:50 split of powerfully built company directors, and IT contractors, I wonder if you have any idea how s
t the trade is for wages.
Indeed!With most people's desire to pay next to nothing as an hourly rate, and begrudge every penny spent on repairs and maintenance, I often wonder whether the same people also begrudge those in the trade trying to earn a living too?
What with Pistonheads being a near 50:50 split of powerfully built company directors, and IT contractors, I wonder if you have any idea how s
t the trade is for wages.catman said:
I didn't start the thread to deny the right of garages/mechanics to make a decent living from their business. It was about some places trying to charge a ridiculous sum of money for a simple job, and then trying to bullst their way out when they're found out.
Tim
I get that, but EVERY time we end up with half the boards dt their way out when they're found out.Tim
heads complaining about other people making a living! But they don't do any job that involves diagnostics. They all work in offices or sales. L99JKB said:
I recently tried a new large garage that has opened up in our area. Claiming min dealer service without main dealer prices.
I was drawn in by the prospect of a cheap MOT which the car failed on a ball joint dust cover and 4 tyres. Cue a quote to fix of £270 for the dust cover and £200 each for tyres. I nearly fell off the chair as the chap told me. Went to my usual BMW specialist who sorted the dust cover for peanuts and some tyres for half the price. (The very same tyres I was quoted double for). Whats worrying is that some people just agree to the work at the prices quoted and won't shop around.
I took the car back a couple of days after the work was done for the retest but shan't be returning there ever again.
Balljoint (presumably with the arm) Supplied and fitted peanuts? I was drawn in by the prospect of a cheap MOT which the car failed on a ball joint dust cover and 4 tyres. Cue a quote to fix of £270 for the dust cover and £200 each for tyres. I nearly fell off the chair as the chap told me. Went to my usual BMW specialist who sorted the dust cover for peanuts and some tyres for half the price. (The very same tyres I was quoted double for). Whats worrying is that some people just agree to the work at the prices quoted and won't shop around.
I took the car back a couple of days after the work was done for the retest but shan't be returning there ever again.
2 tyres EXACTLY the same for £100. What brand are tyres £50 each in a BMW size?
Excuse my scepticism!
rxe said:
The bloke who reads the error log and determines that a network card has gone bang earns about £3 an hour. He’s in Mumbai. The bloke who redesigns the whole thing so the problem doesn’t happen again earns a lot more.
a) MUMBAI! b) Clearly if it goes wrong then that person isn't very good at their job and should be sacked. Probably in favour of someone in Mumbai. Much cheaper out there. I suggest your employer closes it's UK arm and outsources. People like you are obviously ripping off the company if things aren't perfect from new!
rxe said:
Rich_W said:
You literally know NOTHING about current car technology 
There was more computing power in the E39 5 series than the Lunar modules!
Current S Class has something like 100 separate control units.
Your phone doesn't have to last 200K miles or 30 years and in -40 to +50 degrees. All the while whilst being bumped up and down constantly, getting hot and cold constantly. Your phone has to last 2 years in your pocket till it gets all slow and the batteries not holding more than a days charge. And you get a new one on your contract : laugh:
Your phone doesn't have to take a fossil fuel and use it so frugally as to hit ever more stringent emissions legislation AND increasing expectation of mpg
Yes, cars are complex. However, complex things don’t have to obfuscate their details to the extent that cars do. If we’re defining complexity as a multiple of lunar lander compute capacity, I was probably dealing with something a trillion times more complex last week. All of its diagnostic data was written to a text file which was readable by a human. Even a really thick, untrained human could read it and see the word ERROR. No reason why cars can’t do this, the only reason the manufacturers get away with it is that us idiot consumers think that “reading the diagnostics” should cost £80.There was more computing power in the E39 5 series than the Lunar modules!
Current S Class has something like 100 separate control units.
Your phone doesn't have to last 200K miles or 30 years and in -40 to +50 degrees. All the while whilst being bumped up and down constantly, getting hot and cold constantly. Your phone has to last 2 years in your pocket till it gets all slow and the batteries not holding more than a days charge. And you get a new one on your contract : laugh:
Your phone doesn't have to take a fossil fuel and use it so frugally as to hit ever more stringent emissions legislation AND increasing expectation of mpg
I think it was one of the early Fiestas that a friend's sister had, the rear windscreen wiper stopped working. Garage said this was a known fault, the fix was to replace the spark plugs...
Friend (electronics engineer) goes steaming down the the garage raving about ripping people off with bullsh*t, especially women.
Mechanic shows him the service bulletin, explaining that when the spark plugs get worn the engine management system turns up the juice to them which creates more electrical interference, and the first result is that the rear wiper (the furthest away item on the CAN bus with the weakest signal) stops working due to interference disrupting the CAN bus data.
Spark plugs are changed, rear wiper now works.
Apparently this problem was never found during pre-production testing, and only emerged when customers found it -- and I bet most of them had the same reaction when told what the fix was, especially if they had never heard of a CAN bus...
Problem was fixed with later models by better CAN bus shielding, but I bet the guy who first diagnosed the problem had a good laugh :-)
Friend (electronics engineer) goes steaming down the the garage raving about ripping people off with bullsh*t, especially women.
Mechanic shows him the service bulletin, explaining that when the spark plugs get worn the engine management system turns up the juice to them which creates more electrical interference, and the first result is that the rear wiper (the furthest away item on the CAN bus with the weakest signal) stops working due to interference disrupting the CAN bus data.
Spark plugs are changed, rear wiper now works.
Apparently this problem was never found during pre-production testing, and only emerged when customers found it -- and I bet most of them had the same reaction when told what the fix was, especially if they had never heard of a CAN bus...
Problem was fixed with later models by better CAN bus shielding, but I bet the guy who first diagnosed the problem had a good laugh :-)
Edited by ijd on Sunday 19th November 18:56
Rich_W said:
L99JKB said:
I recently tried a new large garage that has opened up in our area. Claiming min dealer service without main dealer prices.
I was drawn in by the prospect of a cheap MOT which the car failed on a ball joint dust cover and 4 tyres. Cue a quote to fix of £270 for the dust cover and £200 each for tyres. I nearly fell off the chair as the chap told me. Went to my usual BMW specialist who sorted the dust cover for peanuts and some tyres for half the price. (The very same tyres I was quoted double for). Whats worrying is that some people just agree to the work at the prices quoted and won't shop around.
I took the car back a couple of days after the work was done for the retest but shan't be returning there ever again.
Balljoint (presumably with the arm) Supplied and fitted peanuts? I was drawn in by the prospect of a cheap MOT which the car failed on a ball joint dust cover and 4 tyres. Cue a quote to fix of £270 for the dust cover and £200 each for tyres. I nearly fell off the chair as the chap told me. Went to my usual BMW specialist who sorted the dust cover for peanuts and some tyres for half the price. (The very same tyres I was quoted double for). Whats worrying is that some people just agree to the work at the prices quoted and won't shop around.
I took the car back a couple of days after the work was done for the retest but shan't be returning there ever again.
2 tyres EXACTLY the same for £100. What brand are tyres £50 each in a BMW size?
Excuse my scepticism!
itcaptainslow said:
Reading is one thing, interpreting and working with the results (which may be inaccurate) is quite another.
Agree entirely. The data from a car should be easily and freely available, and it should be comprehensive. At that point the mechanic earns his money by interpreting it correctly, and fixing the problem. The problem is that the mechanic has to buy all sorts of equipment simply to get to the data - which he has to charge for. This is not the mechanics fault - it’s the manufacturers fault for their shoddy implementations, and it is our fault as consumers for accepting it.I don't think anyone here (including me) begrudges a mechanic earning a reasonable hourly wage.
What I have learned from this thread is that the garage themselves are being taken to the cleaners and having to pass that cost to the consumer.
The end result is that the customer is being routinely overcharged, but the garage themselves may not be making much out of it.
What I have learned from this thread is that the garage themselves are being taken to the cleaners and having to pass that cost to the consumer.
The end result is that the customer is being routinely overcharged, but the garage themselves may not be making much out of it.
rxe said:
itcaptainslow said:
Reading is one thing, interpreting and working with the results (which may be inaccurate) is quite another.
Agree entirely. The data from a car should be easily and freely available, and it should be comprehensive. At that point the mechanic earns his money by interpreting it correctly, and fixing the problem. The problem is that the mechanic has to buy all sorts of equipment simply to get to the data - which he has to charge for. This is not the mechanics fault - it’s the manufacturers fault for their shoddy implementations, and it is our fault as consumers for accepting it.They want you to get your car serviced at a dealership, who will have all the proprietary diagnostic tools.
The data is obfuscated and encrypted on purpose, to make more money for the manufacturer, not the mechanic.
Zooks said:
My local garage are ace and i wouldn't hesitate to recommend them but there are some muppets out there. This was shared on a friends FB feed. Garage charged to replace bushes but just jammed nails in the gap.
Surely straight to Trading Standards on this - that garage needs taking out of business!AW111 said:
But from the manufacturer's point of view it's not a shoddy implementation at all.
They want you to get your car serviced at a dealership, who will have all the proprietary diagnostic tools.
The data is obfuscated and encrypted on purpose, to make more money for the manufacturer, not the mechanic.
I'm not sure if I need a parrot - but this is exactly why as consumers we should reject the idea that someone will charge us £80 for diagnostics. If everyone raised merry hell whenever these charges were applied then eventually the garages (even main dealerships) would be begging the manufacturers to make it simpler. They want you to get your car serviced at a dealership, who will have all the proprietary diagnostic tools.
The data is obfuscated and encrypted on purpose, to make more money for the manufacturer, not the mechanic.
At the moment:
- Manufacturers make it needlessly complex
- Garages need to buy tonnes of gear (more money for the purveyors of gear)
- They expect us to pay money for something simple so that they can maintain the gear.
The only person getting mugged off here is the consumer.
Today I found this on a forum I use, first post by a 'Newbie':
What is this cap?
I need to know what the cap is to the left of the air filter on my xxxx - manual transmission. It isn't labelled but it is flat and round and there is yellow hand with a red x on it and a yellow! Inside a yellow triangle. Thanks!
Crikey blimey Mr Derek! Is it surprising that garages take the Mick?
What is this cap?
I need to know what the cap is to the left of the air filter on my xxxx - manual transmission. It isn't labelled but it is flat and round and there is yellow hand with a red x on it and a yellow! Inside a yellow triangle. Thanks!
Crikey blimey Mr Derek! Is it surprising that garages take the Mick?
Just to add a little positivity, I had our old banger MOT today along with a few jobs which required attention, including engine oil and filter change. All done and I paid for the work pleased to hold another 12 months ticket.
At home now, phone call, garage apologised telling me of an error on the car. They hadn’t changed the oil and filter, could I bring it in and they will get the job done.
Honesty from our local garage.
At home now, phone call, garage apologised telling me of an error on the car. They hadn’t changed the oil and filter, could I bring it in and they will get the job done.
Honesty from our local garage.
rxe said:
I'm not sure if I need a parrot - but this is exactly why as consumers we should reject the idea that someone will charge us £80 for diagnostics. If everyone raised merry hell whenever these charges were applied then eventually the garages (even main dealerships) would be begging the manufacturers to make it simpler.
At the moment:
- Manufacturers make it needlessly complex
- Garages need to buy tonnes of gear (more money for the purveyors of gear)
- They expect us to pay money for something simple so that they can maintain the gear.
The only person getting mugged off here is the consumer.
Yes I think a side order of polly the parrot may be in order.At the moment:
- Manufacturers make it needlessly complex
- Garages need to buy tonnes of gear (more money for the purveyors of gear)
- They expect us to pay money for something simple so that they can maintain the gear.
The only person getting mugged off here is the consumer.
The charge isn't for the use of a computer as it is purely a tool used. The charge is for the time and knowledge to diagnose the fault.
Here's a story that's older than the internet to explain the charges garages (or any other technical trade for that matter) make regarding fault diagnosis for those who still don't understand.
The Graybeard engineer retired and a few weeks later the Big Machine broke down, which was essential to the company’s revenue. The Manager couldn’t get the machine to work again so the company called in Graybeard as an independent consultant.
Graybeard agrees. He walks into the factory, takes a look at the Big Machine, grabs a sledge hammer, and whacks the machine once whereupon the machine starts right up. Graybeard leaves and the company is making money again.
The next day Manager receives a bill from Graybeard for $5,000. Manager is furious at the price and refuses to pay. Graybeard assures him that it’s a fair price. Manager retorts that if it’s a fair price Graybeard won’t mind itemizing the bill. Graybeard agrees that this is a fair request and complies.
The new, itemized bill reads….
Hammer: $5
Knowing where to hit the machine with hammer: $4995
You are paying for knowledge not just the use of a tool !
wolf1 said:
You are paying for knowledge not just the use of a tool !
Great analogy, but you're wasting your time. The problem is that in Pistonheads land you'll never be able to convince the masses that working on cars takes any skill or intelligence. Everyone either "has a fully equipped workshop" and changes their own discs and pads hence knows exactly how to diagnose and repair every possible job on any car, or has seen how to do it "on YouTube" or a forum. There are those who bought an ODB code reader off ebay too, so know exactly how to cure that intermittent running fault.
Some of the absolute **** on this thread is comical!
Background, I’m a car dealer, with a specialist workshop and bodyshop, are we cheap? Absolutely not.
We get quite a bit of work from other dealers in our area, simply due to the fact that we have a lot of experience with certain brands and models.
I’ve spent over £20k this year on the latest and greatest diagnostic equipment and software updates for said equipment, the latest remapping equipment, R1234YF air con machine, we do a better job than bob the knob down the road who is still using the same diagnostic equipment from 10 years ago, using the old Autodata his mate gave him a copy of and the wrong grade of oil because it’s cheaper.
Why should we be cheap? We continually invest in new equipment and training, we’re very rarely wrong, and we do a bloody good job.
If you can’t see the value in that, then go somewhere else where the work / advice may be cheap but never forget you get what you pay for
Background, I’m a car dealer, with a specialist workshop and bodyshop, are we cheap? Absolutely not.
We get quite a bit of work from other dealers in our area, simply due to the fact that we have a lot of experience with certain brands and models.
I’ve spent over £20k this year on the latest and greatest diagnostic equipment and software updates for said equipment, the latest remapping equipment, R1234YF air con machine, we do a better job than bob the knob down the road who is still using the same diagnostic equipment from 10 years ago, using the old Autodata his mate gave him a copy of and the wrong grade of oil because it’s cheaper.
Why should we be cheap? We continually invest in new equipment and training, we’re very rarely wrong, and we do a bloody good job.
If you can’t see the value in that, then go somewhere else where the work / advice may be cheap but never forget you get what you pay for
Maz,
Do you do any of the following?
Bullst the customer into having totally unnecessary work done.
Charge £500 to the customer for a part that costs you a quick phone call and £75 for your supplier to send it over to you?
Charge £80 just to plug in your machine and read a code using no skill at all?
If not, then this thread is not really about you.
Do you do any of the following?
Bulls
t the customer into having totally unnecessary work done.Charge £500 to the customer for a part that costs you a quick phone call and £75 for your supplier to send it over to you?
Charge £80 just to plug in your machine and read a code using no skill at all?
If not, then this thread is not really about you.
To throw the balance the other way. Tonight at 16:55 I received a call from a customer who uses me every year for a service and MOT. His van had started making a horrible noise and could I look at it ASAP.
I waited the 30 mins it took him to get through traffic, chucked the van on the ramp, whilst inspecting the second wheel, I noticed a stone trapped between the disc a backing plate. I removed the wheel, then the stone, put it back together and problem solved.
For this, I charged him the grand total of £0. Customer was happy, car was sorted.
My dinner was cold when I got home.
I waited the 30 mins it took him to get through traffic, chucked the van on the ramp, whilst inspecting the second wheel, I noticed a stone trapped between the disc a backing plate. I removed the wheel, then the stone, put it back together and problem solved.
For this, I charged him the grand total of £0. Customer was happy, car was sorted.
My dinner was cold when I got home.
Maz_uk said:
Some of the absolute **** on this thread is comical!
Background, I’m a car dealer, with a specialist workshop and bodyshop, are we cheap? Absolutely not.
We get quite a bit of work from other dealers in our area, simply due to the fact that we have a lot of experience with certain brands and models.
I’ve spent over £20k this year on the latest and greatest diagnostic equipment and software updates for said equipment, the latest remapping equipment, R1234YF air con machine, we do a better job than bob the knob down the road who is still using the same diagnostic equipment from 10 years ago, using the old Autodata his mate gave him a copy of and the wrong grade of oil because it’s cheaper.
Why should we be cheap? We continually invest in new equipment and training, we’re very rarely wrong, and we do a bloody good job.
If you can’t see the value in that, then go somewhere else where the work / advice may be cheap but never forget you get what you pay for
Most of the people posting crap on this thread are clearly wage slaves who have not the slightest conception of what is involved in running a sustainable and profitable business. They are the sort of people who are genuinely outraged that when they bring their own tea bag to a cafe they get charged almost exactly the same for a mug of hot water as for an actual mug of tea.Background, I’m a car dealer, with a specialist workshop and bodyshop, are we cheap? Absolutely not.
We get quite a bit of work from other dealers in our area, simply due to the fact that we have a lot of experience with certain brands and models.
I’ve spent over £20k this year on the latest and greatest diagnostic equipment and software updates for said equipment, the latest remapping equipment, R1234YF air con machine, we do a better job than bob the knob down the road who is still using the same diagnostic equipment from 10 years ago, using the old Autodata his mate gave him a copy of and the wrong grade of oil because it’s cheaper.
Why should we be cheap? We continually invest in new equipment and training, we’re very rarely wrong, and we do a bloody good job.
If you can’t see the value in that, then go somewhere else where the work / advice may be cheap but never forget you get what you pay for
Fastpedeller said:
Zooks said:
My local garage are ace and i wouldn't hesitate to recommend them but there are some muppets out there. This was shared on a friends FB feed. Garage charged to replace bushes but just jammed nails in the gap.
Surely straight to Trading Standards on this - that garage needs taking out of business!Shuvi McTupya said:
I don't think anyone here (including me) begrudges a mechanic earning a reasonable hourly wage.
I guess you didn't see the suggestion that even £20 per hour labour charge would be a rip-off then? Quite laughable really, but shows the phenomenal level of ignorance that abounds on the cost of running a garage business.Edited by Mr2Mike on Tuesday 21st November 08:00
Having read several pages of woe and frustration I feel very grateful that I've got a couple of very good honest independents nearby.
The first is Barry's service center, Cherry Hinton road, cambridge:
http://www.cambridgeonline.co.uk/listings/497/
And one near work:
https://www.barhillmotors-cambridge.co.uk/
Plus a subaru specialist mobile mechanic (Tim Farmer).
It's taken a few years of trial and error (including a couple of really bad click mechanic experiences) to find this lot, but I'd recommend them to everyone. I've yet to get a part from any of them that is be more expensive than I can find on line.
Barry's will fit parts I source, but with the condition that if I supply the wrong parts then I'm liable for the time they waste.
The first is Barry's service center, Cherry Hinton road, cambridge:
http://www.cambridgeonline.co.uk/listings/497/
And one near work:
https://www.barhillmotors-cambridge.co.uk/
Plus a subaru specialist mobile mechanic (Tim Farmer).
It's taken a few years of trial and error (including a couple of really bad click mechanic experiences) to find this lot, but I'd recommend them to everyone. I've yet to get a part from any of them that is be more expensive than I can find on line.
Barry's will fit parts I source, but with the condition that if I supply the wrong parts then I'm liable for the time they waste.
Edited by Cambs_Stuart on Tuesday 21st November 08:25
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