Tesla Roadster: Tesla unveils 'fastest production car ever'
Discussion
otolith said:
The 1/4 mile drag race is a cornerstone of American automotive culture. It's not been picked to advantage EVs, it's just their standard benchmark.
Indeed. I remember when growing up, buying Autocar and turning to the stats section comparing 0-60, which then was the gold standard of measuring a cars performance, faster was, and always is "better" moving the goalposts because an EV is "better" is childish.Edited by babatunde on Tuesday 21st November 06:59
babatunde said:
Indeed. I remember when growing up, buying Autocar and turning to the stats section comparing 0-60, which then was the gold standard of measuring a cars performance, faster was, and always is "better" moving the goalposts because an EV is "better" is childish.
I don't think any goalposts have been moved. Edited by babatunde on Tuesday 21st November 06:59
It's simply to show that whilst EV's have the advantage off the line (especially 4WD); that's not the complete picture of 'performance.'
I believe the reason why we are seeing these races increasing over 1/4 mile and beyond now is that 0-60 times of cars have improved so much - even a BMW 118d will get to 60 in 8 seconds. Supercars etc. are taking between 2.5 and 3.5 seconds roughly. The measure of 0-60 is ALMOST irrelevant with modern performance cars. Watching them over a 1/4 mile and beyond gives a real idea of their performance (brings in aerodynamics etc.).
The goalposts have been moved since 0-60 became such a poor indicator of a car's overall ability - probably somewhere late eighties, early nineties? It used to be that only serious sports and GTs had a 0-60 time under 10 seconds, you had to pay for the sort of exotic engine that could produce over 100bhp and the differences were measured in whole seconds.
Then things like hot hatches came in and everything got compressed into much faster times. There's less than a second between the latest Clio and a standard Elise - that doesn't really reflect the differences between the cars.
EVs will bring in a time when 0-60 becomes completely irrelevant (if it isn't already). Anyone who's fishtailed out of a junction because they were trying to hurry will know that modern cars are easily powerful enough to get you into a lot of trouble. The inevitable consequence will be that attention will shift to other things - how well the car fits a particular niche, how much it can be tailored to your needs, NVH, comfort, range.
That's not to say acceleration and outright speed won't be used as a differentiator, or that manufacturers won't charge over the odds for essentially the same hardware 'tuned' to go faster. But when even your granny's car can do 0-60 in under five seconds, who will really care about 0-60?
Edited to add: Of course it could be that I'm getting older and just don't care as much about Top Trumps figures, but I get the impression that most journalists don't either - there's better ways to talk about cars these days.
Then things like hot hatches came in and everything got compressed into much faster times. There's less than a second between the latest Clio and a standard Elise - that doesn't really reflect the differences between the cars.
EVs will bring in a time when 0-60 becomes completely irrelevant (if it isn't already). Anyone who's fishtailed out of a junction because they were trying to hurry will know that modern cars are easily powerful enough to get you into a lot of trouble. The inevitable consequence will be that attention will shift to other things - how well the car fits a particular niche, how much it can be tailored to your needs, NVH, comfort, range.
That's not to say acceleration and outright speed won't be used as a differentiator, or that manufacturers won't charge over the odds for essentially the same hardware 'tuned' to go faster. But when even your granny's car can do 0-60 in under five seconds, who will really care about 0-60?
Edited to add: Of course it could be that I'm getting older and just don't care as much about Top Trumps figures, but I get the impression that most journalists don't either - there's better ways to talk about cars these days.
Edited by Tuna on Tuesday 21st November 09:03
Agreed but one of the most important metrics, even though it has been around since the dawn of man but it's only in recent decades that it has had such a huge impact within the historically costly car environment is 'how to look as successful as possible for the lowest monthly'.
This thread certainly shouldn't turn into another debt thread, there are more than enough of those, but it's a very important part of Tesla's brand promotion and part of why they have been infinitely more successful than any other EV manufacturer that has gone before. They understood that the cost of batteries meant that rather than trying to pitch disability wagons to lentalists they needed to sell premium image products to premium image consumers. And they hit the nail on the head. The S and the X are fantastic products for projecting that the driver simultaneously cares far more about the environment than lesser mortals while also informing other mortals that they are significantly more successful. The 3 will leverage off that immensely.
One of the big problems facing the incumbent car manufacturers is how they manage to get their EV products to do the same. If their EVs just look the same as their ICE counterparts then I'm not sure there is enough boot space for large enough badges to announce this greatness clearly enough. Tesla will still have plenty of orders in the face of the impending competition as a result of this.
The Chinese have probably made the best step forward by announcing that all Volvos will be electric (small print, mostly hybrid) but it will be a significant hurdle for most that they will need to find clever solutions for.
This thread certainly shouldn't turn into another debt thread, there are more than enough of those, but it's a very important part of Tesla's brand promotion and part of why they have been infinitely more successful than any other EV manufacturer that has gone before. They understood that the cost of batteries meant that rather than trying to pitch disability wagons to lentalists they needed to sell premium image products to premium image consumers. And they hit the nail on the head. The S and the X are fantastic products for projecting that the driver simultaneously cares far more about the environment than lesser mortals while also informing other mortals that they are significantly more successful. The 3 will leverage off that immensely.
One of the big problems facing the incumbent car manufacturers is how they manage to get their EV products to do the same. If their EVs just look the same as their ICE counterparts then I'm not sure there is enough boot space for large enough badges to announce this greatness clearly enough. Tesla will still have plenty of orders in the face of the impending competition as a result of this.
The Chinese have probably made the best step forward by announcing that all Volvos will be electric (small print, mostly hybrid) but it will be a significant hurdle for most that they will need to find clever solutions for.
DonkeyApple said:
have probably made the best step forward by announcing that all Volvos will be electric (small print, mostly hybrid) but it will be a significant hurdle for most that they will need to find clever solutions for.
Did you see the news this week? Uber have partnered with Volvo, agreed to buy 24,000 XC90's. Volvo to supply the cars and Uber to provide the autonomous software.DonkeyApple said:
Agreed but one of the most important metrics, even though it has been around since the dawn of man but it's only in recent decades that it has had such a huge impact within the historically costly car environment is 'how to look as successful as possible for the lowest monthly'.
This thread certainly shouldn't turn into another debt thread, there are more than enough of those, but it's a very important part of Tesla's brand promotion and part of why they have been infinitely more successful than any other EV manufacturer that has gone before. They understood that the cost of batteries meant that rather than trying to pitch disability wagons to lentalists they needed to sell premium image products to premium image consumers. And they hit the nail on the head. The S and the X are fantastic products for projecting that the driver simultaneously cares far more about the environment than lesser mortals while also informing other mortals that they are significantly more successful. The 3 will leverage off that immensely.
One of the big problems facing the incumbent car manufacturers is how they manage to get their EV products to do the same. If their EVs just look the same as their ICE counterparts then I'm not sure there is enough boot space for large enough badges to announce this greatness clearly enough. Tesla will still have plenty of orders in the face of the impending competition as a result of this.
The Chinese have probably made the best step forward by announcing that all Volvos will be electric (small print, mostly hybrid) but it will be a significant hurdle for most that they will need to find clever solutions for.
Do you think the Model 3 looks "premium image" as you put it? Most people who seem to like Tesla are all about the stats and geek stuff like that. People buy Apple stuff because it looks nice. The more upmarket stuff hasn't exactly been selling well. The days of wanting to show off your green credentials are long gone. This thread certainly shouldn't turn into another debt thread, there are more than enough of those, but it's a very important part of Tesla's brand promotion and part of why they have been infinitely more successful than any other EV manufacturer that has gone before. They understood that the cost of batteries meant that rather than trying to pitch disability wagons to lentalists they needed to sell premium image products to premium image consumers. And they hit the nail on the head. The S and the X are fantastic products for projecting that the driver simultaneously cares far more about the environment than lesser mortals while also informing other mortals that they are significantly more successful. The 3 will leverage off that immensely.
One of the big problems facing the incumbent car manufacturers is how they manage to get their EV products to do the same. If their EVs just look the same as their ICE counterparts then I'm not sure there is enough boot space for large enough badges to announce this greatness clearly enough. Tesla will still have plenty of orders in the face of the impending competition as a result of this.
The Chinese have probably made the best step forward by announcing that all Volvos will be electric (small print, mostly hybrid) but it will be a significant hurdle for most that they will need to find clever solutions for.
Too Drunk to Funk said:
Do you think the Model 3 looks "premium image" as you put it? Most people who seem to like Tesla are all about the stats and geek stuff like that. People buy Apple stuff because it looks nice. The more upmarket stuff hasn't exactly been selling well. The days of wanting to show off your green credentials are long gone.
You've missed the point a little bit. First point, those who 'seem to like' Tesla are a somewhat larger group than those who have been buying a Tesla to date.
The S and the X have been the premium price tag products. Circa £100k is the number promoted. Tremendously popular tools in London and the SE for image projection. They've paved the way for the 3. Hence why I differentiated the mass market 3 product in the post. Plus, you've added the word 'look' and that changes the context significantly. But even regardless of that, the 3 will tell all other road users that you aren't some 'park on the street' w
ker. You own a drive way. TSLA is all about the image, the projection of success to play on the need of key consumers to be associated through ownership. The company has been hugely successful, you only need to look at the insane multiple in the share price to see that. Besides, people who are spending £1000 on an iPhone aren't doing so because 'it looks nice'.
. And Apple aren't selling it because it looks nice. It's the £ number that it important. That is why it exists in the range. hyphen said:
DonkeyApple said:
have probably made the best step forward by announcing that all Volvos will be electric (small print, mostly hybrid) but it will be a significant hurdle for most that they will need to find clever solutions for.
Did you see the news this week? Uber have partnered with Volvo, agreed to buy 24,000 XC90's. Volvo to supply the cars and Uber to provide the autonomous software.What it also shows is that these deals have to be done between firms that are large enough to guarantee supply. Uber couldn't have done that deal with TSLA as they are not yet at the point where they can guarantee product delivery in any size. It's also why all the car manufacturers are securing battery deals with Chinese firms and no one is looking at Tesla for supply. Who can afford to shut down their whole production and shipping line because a factory in the middle of America suddenly can't get enough raw materials. The firms planning to deliver EVs to market within the next 3-5 years have to sign very solid supply deals today.
Yipper said:
J4CKO said:
I didnt see any acceleration on that video, it was stationary and then it was moving at speed ! been in a model S and that was silly, this must be mind bendingly rapid.
I wonder what tyres it has on for 1.9 seconds to sixty ? the fact it does 100 2 and a bit seconds later is amazing, I remember hearing Murray Walker saying a Metro 6R4 Rallycross car could do sixty in 1.9 seconds and had to rewind the video to check, makes me wonder what it would do on drag slicks ?
I find it amusing that people are calling Elon Musk out like he is some kind of snake oil salesman/showman, he has actually delivered some cars I believe, maybe 10 or more.....
I am no fanboy, but it needed someone to shake stuff up, whilst the old guard were carrying on regardless he arrives and rips up the rulebook, produces a desirable EV, no mean feat, it isnt the last word in quality or whatever but they didnt really exist ten years ago, hell of an achievement, its liek Apple did with the mobile phone, nothing that new tech wise but they way it was all put together struck a chord and people went mad for, it look at say a Nokia from ten years ago versus an iphone, very similar step change.
Musk has blown billions of other people's money selling a rebadged Lotus and Merc and is financially very unlikely to survive.I wonder what tyres it has on for 1.9 seconds to sixty ? the fact it does 100 2 and a bit seconds later is amazing, I remember hearing Murray Walker saying a Metro 6R4 Rallycross car could do sixty in 1.9 seconds and had to rewind the video to check, makes me wonder what it would do on drag slicks ?
I find it amusing that people are calling Elon Musk out like he is some kind of snake oil salesman/showman, he has actually delivered some cars I believe, maybe 10 or more.....
I am no fanboy, but it needed someone to shake stuff up, whilst the old guard were carrying on regardless he arrives and rips up the rulebook, produces a desirable EV, no mean feat, it isnt the last word in quality or whatever but they didnt really exist ten years ago, hell of an achievement, its liek Apple did with the mobile phone, nothing that new tech wise but they way it was all put together struck a chord and people went mad for, it look at say a Nokia from ten years ago versus an iphone, very similar step change.
Spending billions of other people's money and subsidies is gifting, not selling.
Tesla is statistically doomed...
https://www.economist.com/news/business/21730446-f...
"Spending billions of other people's money and subsidies is gifting, not selling". Not quite laughable but almost. It does require a bit of capital to set up a car company you know. And Tesla has very high gross (25%+) margins on cars to date. And that money it's spending is mostly from professional investors - they understand the risks and the rewards, they are no mugs.
It is spending money faster now because it's building a major car company that has 500k advanced orders for its next car. That doesn't mean that it's "statistically doomed" [sic]
Looks like the press are starting to question Teslas claims about the car - as we said the numbers just don't add up
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-11-24...
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-11-24...
traxx said:
Looks like the press are starting to question Teslas claims about the car - as we said the numbers just don't add up
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-11-24...
Kind of unusual but I think his game is to set a target in the future and hope the technology has changed by then to meet the target or develop it to meet it.https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-11-24...
Bloomberg probably doesn't understand this.
jamoor said:
Kind of unusual but I think his game is to set a target in the future and hope the technology has changed by then to meet the target or develop it to meet it.
Bloomberg probably doesn't understand this.
So if VW announce that their 2020 diesels will produce no particulate emissions and a tenth of the CO2, you'd be OK with that?Bloomberg probably doesn't understand this.
Tuna said:
jamoor said:
Kind of unusual but I think his game is to set a target in the future and hope the technology has changed by then to meet the target or develop it to meet it.
Bloomberg probably doesn't understand this.
So if VW announce that their 2020 diesels will produce no particulate emissions and a tenth of the CO2, you'd be OK with that?Bloomberg probably doesn't understand this.
robemcdonald said:
Tuna said:
jamoor said:
Kind of unusual but I think his game is to set a target in the future and hope the technology has changed by then to meet the target or develop it to meet it.
Bloomberg probably doesn't understand this.
So if VW announce that their 2020 diesels will produce no particulate emissions and a tenth of the CO2, you'd be OK with that?Bloomberg probably doesn't understand this.
Tuna said:
So if VW announce that their 2020 diesels will produce no particulate emissions and a tenth of the CO2, you'd be OK with that?
If they can do it in three years time I don't see why not, although they don't have a record of doing so.If you have a read here
https://www.tesla.com/en_GB/blog/secret-tesla-moto...
So, in short, the master plan is:
Build sports car
Use that money to build an affordable car
Use that money to build an even more affordable car
While doing above, also provide zero emission electric power generation options
I'd say he's pretty much on cue, unless I'm missing something?
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