RE: Jaguar E-Pace P300: Driven
Discussion
W12AAM said:
£50,000?! - Gone are the days when "Jags" were good value, under William Lyons helm.
Clearly Tata are sticking their neck out & making the most of their investment. Good luck with them , especially if it sells well (which it probably will) & it keeps the Jaguar brand "alive".
However; For half that price - Perhaps a nice spec'd, late (2012/21013) L322 Range Rover Vogue for approx. half that amount & then stick a private reg. on it, would be better value & have a lot more class!
And use the money, saved, for fuel ....and any repairs!
Words fail me.Clearly Tata are sticking their neck out & making the most of their investment. Good luck with them , especially if it sells well (which it probably will) & it keeps the Jaguar brand "alive".
However; For half that price - Perhaps a nice spec'd, late (2012/21013) L322 Range Rover Vogue for approx. half that amount & then stick a private reg. on it, would be better value & have a lot more class!
And use the money, saved, for fuel ....and any repairs!
I cannot believe they are launching a car based on a tarted up EUCD platform for the 2018 model year. It's not like the Evoque itself is even any good, and the Ingenium engines are absolutely no better than they absolutely have to be either. Even Volvo, masters of the art of milking a model until it dies, just replaced their EUCD based SUV after a decade in production.
Lots of glitz and badge going on, but beyond that not really a very competitive car. No doubt they'll sell a fair few of the 150bhp diesel rattlers, but I wonder if this might be taking the piss out of the market just a little bit too much.
Lots of glitz and badge going on, but beyond that not really a very competitive car. No doubt they'll sell a fair few of the 150bhp diesel rattlers, but I wonder if this might be taking the piss out of the market just a little bit too much.
Edited by dme123 on Monday 20th November 19:44
ExPat2B said:
Here we have it. You think
"the (X3's ) ride on 19's with proper tyres was sublime,"
I have been in an X3 with 19's and I have to respectfully disagree. The ride is not sublime. The fact you think it is, illustratrates why you are disagreeing with so many posters on here. You can do a lot, lot better.
My wife's car was on SE suspension and on the 19" wheels it was very, very compliant. The way it absorbed pot holes and raised iron works was incredibly impressive. "the (X3's ) ride on 19's with proper tyres was sublime,"
I have been in an X3 with 19's and I have to respectfully disagree. The ride is not sublime. The fact you think it is, illustratrates why you are disagreeing with so many posters on here. You can do a lot, lot better.
I also had a set of 17's for it for winter tyres and they came with run flats, it was shocking on those.
I will stand by what I say, compared with the Mercs including E Classes and MLs, other BMWs from E39s 5 Series through to 7 Series, it was a very compliant ride.
The only X3s in the UK that came on proper tyres were the ones on the 17" wheels, so I do wonder if people are comparing apples with apples?
Also, the 4cyl cars with SE suspension and are xDrive come with a rather good Bilstein damper and Sachs spring, the 6cyl cars however come with a much firmer Boge Sachs damper, combine those with run flats, no choice in the UK when ordering, and it ruins the car.
Edited by gizlaroc on Monday 20th November 20:09
CPWilliams said:
thelawnet1 said:
CPWilliams said:
S is the top of the range variant for the XE/ XF/ F & E Paces, akin to the Audi S models.
R-Design is Volvo i think, Jag’s is R-Sport (arseport)
On the E-Pace the trim levels areR-Design is Volvo i think, Jag’s is R-Sport (arseport)
<base>
S
SE
HSE (top)
plus R-Dynamic bling as an add-on
The engines are all 4-cylinder.
On the F-pace
Prestige (base)
R-Sport
Portfolio
S (but only available on V6 diesel or V6 petrol)
On the XE
SE (base)
Prestige
R-Sport
Portfolio
S (V6 only - no diesel)
On the XF
SE (base)
Prestige
R-Sport
Portfolio
S (V6 only - both petrol and diesel)
On the XJ
Luxury
Premium Luxury
Portfolio
R-Sport
Autobiography (diesel LWB only)
XJR (V8 only)
On the F-type
<base>
R-Dynamic
R (550bhp V8 only)
SVR (575 bhp V8 only)
So S means 'V6' on the cars that have a V6 available (and also top spec). On the e-pace it just means 'second-lowest trim level'.
kin’ mess. You can’t build sub brand recognition a’la M-Sport like that. But it’s part of Jag and LR having the same trim levels, it’s a slow and painful process.
They’ve managed to call their colours the same now (Firenze red has won over Italian Racing Red, etc)
Now Jag has to adopt the HSE etc
And LR now have had half of R-Sport added to their Dynamic range, to create R-Dynamic
Probably by 2019MY they will removed all the ridiculous duplications and complication...
Wow incredible amount of bitterness in this thread towards SUVs and those who can actually afford them.
I don't see what's wrong personally - I think they can be more distinctive than a bland estate/touring body style, high driving position is a bonus and who cares about handling at 7am on the (slow moving) M27?
I don't see what's wrong personally - I think they can be more distinctive than a bland estate/touring body style, high driving position is a bonus and who cares about handling at 7am on the (slow moving) M27?
gizlaroc said:
Our F25 X3 was more comfy than our F11 5 Series Touring as well, so not sure I even agree with you 100% anyway. Some brands yeah, others not so.
Having had both an E61 and F11, and been given X3's on numerous occasions as courtesy cars, the X3 doesn't come close in any respect.
Worse ride, less comfortable inside, worse handling etc.
BeirutTaxi said:
Wow incredible amount of bitterness in this thread towards SUVs and those who can actually afford them.
I don't see what's wrong personally - I think they can be more distinctive than a bland estate/touring body style, high driving position is a bonus and who cares about handling at 7am on the (slow moving) M27?
Not sure about your first sentence, but agree 100% with your second sentence. All those posters saying "SUV's don't handle" are missing the point - the vast majority of SUV buyers have no need or desire to drive like Lewis Hamilton. What they want is high up driving position to see over the effing endless queues on the effing M27, waist-height seats for loading/unloading children and/or elderly relatives and/or shopping and/or sports kit, a big-ish body shell for perceived safety, and general all round practicality. Oh yeah, and good looks; that's subjective I know but it's a big factor in why people buy the Evoque.I don't see what's wrong personally - I think they can be more distinctive than a bland estate/touring body style, high driving position is a bonus and who cares about handling at 7am on the (slow moving) M27?
As for the P300 E-Pace............£50k? Shut the front door! But the cheaper ones in the range should do quite well, and that has to be good for British industry.
swisstoni said:
Well that'll quieten things down. 
Well it was partly trolling... But it's true isn't it? An SUV on finance seems to get some members going red in the face and bashing away at their keyboard. The truth is that they don't like the success some people have achieved in being able to use a popular form of credit (PCP/HP) to purchase something they have worked hard for. ExPat2B said:
Ray_Aber said:
Wow. A lot of varied opinions. My comments on some of them are as follows.
1. "It's a small SUV, therefore you are (a) a mum and (b) the antichrist."
No - while I hated SUVs, especially the full fat ones, for a long time, the facts of living kick in. My OH and I now have elderly parents. We need to take them about when they are visiting. We need a car with a high hip point. This is also important for my wife who now struggles to get into lower cars. Other than jacked up estates (which have a huge footprint), the SUV option is all we have.
So what you are basically saying is that it is an invalid carriage. 1. "It's a small SUV, therefore you are (a) a mum and (b) the antichrist."
No - while I hated SUVs, especially the full fat ones, for a long time, the facts of living kick in. My OH and I now have elderly parents. We need to take them about when they are visiting. We need a car with a high hip point. This is also important for my wife who now struggles to get into lower cars. Other than jacked up estates (which have a huge footprint), the SUV option is all we have.
SWoll said:
Your concept of comfort is clearly very different to mine.
Having had both an E61 and F11, and been given X3's on numerous occasions as courtesy cars, the X3 doesn't come close in any respect.
Worse ride, less comfortable inside, worse handling etc.
And what suspension and tyres were you loan cars on? I would bet my mortgage they were all on run flats.Having had both an E61 and F11, and been given X3's on numerous occasions as courtesy cars, the X3 doesn't come close in any respect.
Worse ride, less comfortable inside, worse handling etc.
As someone who did 40k miles in a 535d E61 (on proper tyres) over 18 months and then did 22k miles in an F11 over 10 months, I think I have had enough experience of the three models to be able to give a valid opinion.
The handling is of course "worse", but my point was, when you get the X3 right (which only take the right suspension and tyres) they are more than nimble enough for every day and incredibly comfy.
Simply getting them off the run flats transforms that car into a bone shaking, twitchy mess that skips around on anything but billiard table smooth roads into something that is very compliant and bites into corners in a way that an SUV really has no right to.
Plus it is an SUV, someone who is buying that is looking for a different driving experience, where as often when I am buying a 535d or a 335i Touring I am really wanting an M5 or M3 but having to compromise as I need a load lugger for work and family duties. Nothing wrong with that, but in the end I thought it better to just get an SUV for that and then buy something a bit more fun for when I want something for that job.
My old man swapped his F11 for a Mercedes ML as he wanted a bit more comfort, he actually ended up taking our X3 and selling his ML as the X3 was more comfortable than his ML. I think that says a lot about how important it is to get the car specced to how you want it to feel. My mate has the X3 35d M-Sport and his feels like a completely different car, but he has the M-Sport active suspension and 19" wheels with run flats, it is not something I could live with myself.
I have found the ride in various SUV/Crossover vehicles to be firmer that I'd like, no doubt because of the requirement to control the weight of the vehicle and stop it feeling unstable due to the higher centre of gravity. You cannot defy the law of physics, and it's always going to be easier to control the body movements of a lower and lighter vehicle without having to resort to such stiff springs and firm damping.
Even our squishy spec family bus XC60 is much firmer than a V60 or our old V70, although for it's height, bulk, and non handling focus you can take the most astonishing liberties when driving like a tt. It never gives you any "oh st" moments during over ambitious driving either. I'm hoping that with a more sophisticated double wishbone setup at the front the new one might ride a little better, although the XC90 is not impressive at all in that regard.
Even our squishy spec family bus XC60 is much firmer than a V60 or our old V70, although for it's height, bulk, and non handling focus you can take the most astonishing liberties when driving like a t
t. It never gives you any "oh st" moments during over ambitious driving either. I'm hoping that with a more sophisticated double wishbone setup at the front the new one might ride a little better, although the XC90 is not impressive at all in that regard.At nigh on 1900 kg, the crossovers from Jaguar set an interesting stage for Lotus to introduce their interpretation of sporting and utility.
I appreciate this latest effort by Jaguar, although I'm not personally interested in the segment. I reckon Jaguar will do well with these: acceptable figures in Europe and relatively large-ish volumes in China and the US.
gizlaroc said:
No, what I said is the reason I like a capable engine is they are more 'effortless'.
The thing with an SUV is it makes you drive differently, the higher CoG forces you to waft around more. Speak to owners of SUVs and fast estates and many will agree.
It is not about making it worse, it is about it feeling different, which some of us prefer.
It isn't that difficult to get your head round.
Spot on.The thing with an SUV is it makes you drive differently, the higher CoG forces you to waft around more. Speak to owners of SUVs and fast estates and many will agree.
It is not about making it worse, it is about it feeling different, which some of us prefer.
It isn't that difficult to get your head round.
gizlaroc said:
Plus it is an SUV, someone who is buying that is looking for a different driving experience, where as often when I am buying a 535d or a 335i Touring I am really wanting an M5 or M3 but having to compromise as I need a load lugger for work and family duties. Nothing wrong with that, but in the end I thought it better to just get an SUV for that and then buy something a bit more fun for when I want something for that job.
Sound like it's more your connotation with that body style than anyone else's. Why would people who buy an estate want it to be be a 'fast' or 'sporty' estate as a matter of fact? I get that you don't want an RS4 for your daily commute, neither would I. However, the most relaxing car I've driven lately, by far was a new Mercedes E200 Estate. Would an X3 be more soothing than that? I would say 100 of 100 people who road test cars for a living would vehemently disagree.
I deeply understand wanting to waft when it comes to the daily grind.
What doesn't compute is wanting to waft, and then choosing a body style that's so heavy and high up that it needs to be stiffly sprung to just prevent it from falling over in a bend.
You can't change the laws of physics.
If I wanted to waft, I'd choose something low (ish) with a long wheelbase. Historically, that would be a Jaaaaaag or a big Citroën. Now, I'd take the E-Class or the equivalent Lexus or whatever is set up for comfort foremost (which excludes Audis or BMWs at this level, they are meant to be 'dynamic' and businesslike). An SUV is inherently compromised although for some drivers, the high driving position is a benefit that overrules everything else (to me, it's a liability more often than a benefit, it makes the car feel bigger, more remote and awkward than it needs to be. But then again, our minor roads aren't lined with 4 feet tall hedges).
900T-R said:
Sound like it's more your connotation with that body style than anyone else's.
Why would people who buy an estate want it to be be a 'fast' or 'sporty' estate as a matter of fact? I get that you don't want an RS4 for your daily commute, neither would I. However, the most relaxing car I've driven lately, by far was a new Mercedes E200 Estate. Would an X3 be more soothing than that? I would say 100 of 100 people who road test cars for a living would vehemently disagree.
I deeply understand wanting to waft when it comes to the daily grind.
What doesn't compute is wanting to waft, and then choosing a body style that's so heavy and high up that it needs to be stiffly sprung to just prevent it from falling over in a bend.
You can't change the laws of physics.
If I wanted to waft, I'd choose something low (ish) with a long wheelbase. Historically, that would be a Jaaaaaag or a big Citroën. Now, I'd take the E-Class or the equivalent Lexus or whatever is set up for comfort foremost (which excludes Audis or BMWs at this level, they are meant to be 'dynamic' and businesslike). An SUV is inherently compromised although for some drivers, the high driving position is a benefit that overrules everything else (to me, it's a liability more often than a benefit, it makes the car feel bigger, more remote and awkward than it needs to be. But then again, our minor roads aren't lined with 4 feet tall hedges).
Buy an estate to be fast and sporty? Why would people who buy an estate want it to be be a 'fast' or 'sporty' estate as a matter of fact? I get that you don't want an RS4 for your daily commute, neither would I. However, the most relaxing car I've driven lately, by far was a new Mercedes E200 Estate. Would an X3 be more soothing than that? I would say 100 of 100 people who road test cars for a living would vehemently disagree.
I deeply understand wanting to waft when it comes to the daily grind.
What doesn't compute is wanting to waft, and then choosing a body style that's so heavy and high up that it needs to be stiffly sprung to just prevent it from falling over in a bend.
You can't change the laws of physics.
If I wanted to waft, I'd choose something low (ish) with a long wheelbase. Historically, that would be a Jaaaaaag or a big Citroën. Now, I'd take the E-Class or the equivalent Lexus or whatever is set up for comfort foremost (which excludes Audis or BMWs at this level, they are meant to be 'dynamic' and businesslike). An SUV is inherently compromised although for some drivers, the high driving position is a benefit that overrules everything else (to me, it's a liability more often than a benefit, it makes the car feel bigger, more remote and awkward than it needs to be. But then again, our minor roads aren't lined with 4 feet tall hedges).
I don't know, everyone kept telling me the handling etc. was far better in an estate, and I was saying that was not what I was looking for on my everyday cars.
Well my current 'waft' car is a MY12 Mercedes E Class estate, E350 3.5 litre, it is a complete waft machine.
But thanks for telling me I haven't tried the 'right' estate yet!
However, I missed having an SUV as they are simply more relaxing to drive......for me anyway, and many others.
So I sold my 130i and bought a TDV8 Range Rover to go with it.
I would highly call that stiffly sprung, but then nor was the X3, that was also more compliant than the Merc estate. If anything the the X3 was actually too soft, hence why after swapping the 17" run flats for proper tyres I then bought some 19" wheels for it, and that was a perfect combo with the SE dampers and springs.
When I got the E350 it went from doing 2000-2500 miles a month down to around 500 miles a month in it, mainly as my wife is pretty much the only one who now uses it, so shows you which I prefer to be in to rack up miles.
You have obviously just can't accept that someone else likes something different to you, strange.
anonymous said:
[redacted]
Is the Jag brand really that toxic to upper-middle class women? If so, I agree they’re going to struggle to shift the E-Pace.I ran an old XK8 for a while and loved it. It got a lot of positive comments from men (not just OAPs) but several female friends (and my wife) weren’t keen. For some, the brand is still strongly associated with Arfur Daley, John Prescott, and ruddy-cheeked old men who smell of cigar smoke. No amount of fancy branding and London Fashion Week sponsorship is going to change that.
spreadsheet monkey said:
Is the Jag brand really that toxic to upper-middle class women? If so, I agree they’re going to struggle to shift the E-Pace.
I ran an old XK8 for a while and loved it. It got a lot of positive comments from men (not just OAPs) but several female friends (and my wife) weren’t keen. For some, the brand is still strongly associated with Arfur Daley, John Prescott, and ruddy-cheeked old men who smell of cigar smoke. No amount of fancy branding and London Fashion Week sponsorship is going to change that.
Yet the only car my wife lusts after is a Deep red metallic XK-R with oatmeal leather. I ran an old XK8 for a while and loved it. It got a lot of positive comments from men (not just OAPs) but several female friends (and my wife) weren’t keen. For some, the brand is still strongly associated with Arfur Daley, John Prescott, and ruddy-cheeked old men who smell of cigar smoke. No amount of fancy branding and London Fashion Week sponsorship is going to change that.
gizlaroc said:
spreadsheet monkey said:
Is the Jag brand really that toxic to upper-middle class women? If so, I agree they’re going to struggle to shift the E-Pace.
I ran an old XK8 for a while and loved it. It got a lot of positive comments from men (not just OAPs) but several female friends (and my wife) weren’t keen. For some, the brand is still strongly associated with Arfur Daley, John Prescott, and ruddy-cheeked old men who smell of cigar smoke. No amount of fancy branding and London Fashion Week sponsorship is going to change that.
Yet the only car my wife lusts after is a Deep red metallic XK-R with oatmeal leather. I ran an old XK8 for a while and loved it. It got a lot of positive comments from men (not just OAPs) but several female friends (and my wife) weren’t keen. For some, the brand is still strongly associated with Arfur Daley, John Prescott, and ruddy-cheeked old men who smell of cigar smoke. No amount of fancy branding and London Fashion Week sponsorship is going to change that.
They just need to make better looking cars.
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