RE: Alpine A110: Driven
Discussion
Miserablegit said:
But this just doesn’t make sense.
If the Alpine won’t pass new emissions tests then what is their plan? I could understand this if it was a run-out model but it is a brand new model
It will, but ones built already under NEDC testing have to be registered. New ones will meet WLTP and will continue to be registered but if they have been built under NEDC then they have to be registered.If the Alpine won’t pass new emissions tests then what is their plan? I could understand this if it was a run-out model but it is a brand new model
Sorry all,
At the risk of being stupid ( there is always that risk) I don’t see the issue.
Porsche made a 4 pot because the 6 pot wouldn’t pass communist standards
Alpine have only ever put the new 4 pot into the car so if an alpine passes the old standard it should pass the new standard as i don’t see a difference . If alpine need to use a new map to make the car meet the new standard then what is the issue unless they are saying power will be down on all cars post PE?
Or will power be up on all cars post PE to allow for testing under the new standard?? I just don’t see the issue/difference for the same car/engine combination and the info from Alpine is lacking somewhat .
At the risk of being stupid ( there is always that risk) I don’t see the issue.
Porsche made a 4 pot because the 6 pot wouldn’t pass communist standards
Alpine have only ever put the new 4 pot into the car so if an alpine passes the old standard it should pass the new standard as i don’t see a difference . If alpine need to use a new map to make the car meet the new standard then what is the issue unless they are saying power will be down on all cars post PE?
Or will power be up on all cars post PE to allow for testing under the new standard?? I just don’t see the issue/difference for the same car/engine combination and the info from Alpine is lacking somewhat .
Miserablegit said:
I can see this being an issue for co2 purposes if someone is running one as a company car but as there is no info at present I don’t see what the issue can be. They can just re-test the PE under the new standards surely ?
Yes, but it will almost certainly fail. We're not talking about tax banding by CO2 here, we're talking about maximum legal emissions of things like nitrous oxides and particulates. If the cars can't pass the new tests, they cannot be road registered without what will probably prove to be significant hardware changes. Edited by kambites on Tuesday 24th July 18:08
Really ??
So alpine / Renault with all their knowhow have built a car with a six month sales window which they have missed ? I can believe this is what has happened given the piss poor performance on deliveries / info flow but really?
What are they going to do with the next versions?
How does the Megane with more power get by the standards ??
So alpine / Renault with all their knowhow have built a car with a six month sales window which they have missed ? I can believe this is what has happened given the piss poor performance on deliveries / info flow but really?
What are they going to do with the next versions?
How does the Megane with more power get by the standards ??
Miserablegit said:
On the basis that is a ctrl alt delete reboot whilst whistling La Marseillaise why such a big issue?
I'd imagine the cost of converting the existing cars would be pretty painful. Also I suppose people who've already put their deposits down may not be too pleased at being told they're going to get 10bhp (or whatever it turns out to be) less than they'd been promised because Renault are incompetent and cant hit their own deadlines. I very much doubt it'll be possible to do it with an ECU remap alone. I suspect they'll need to git a GPF which in turn will mean a new exhaust. Unless the car has a GPF out of the box?
ETA: Then there's the question of how much space they have around the exhaust. BMW, as an example, had the change the prop-shaft on the M3/M4 to fit the GPF in. Obviously that wont be a problem in itself because of the engine location but there's probably plenty of other stuff in the way.
Edited by kambites on Tuesday 24th July 18:40
kambites said:
Miserablegit said:
What are they going to do with the next versions?
Fit the new hardware and/or ECU programming required to pass the test. “Such a slender improvement was probably not hard to coax from the still very new turbocharged 1.8-litre four-cylinder engine - the trick these days is to comply with the new Euro6d-Temp emission standards once you've finished tweaking. Consequently some of the Trophy's cleverer bits are to do with offsetting the increase in exhaust back pressure created by a new particulate filter. The efficiency of the turbocharger was deemed key to success, and its turbine now spins courtesy of a ceramic ball bearings, which is harder, lighter and smoother than steel and therefore quicker to spool.”
The Alpine has the new engine and doesn’t even have 300hp so hitting the new emissions target shouldn’t be an issue...
HighwayStar said:
The Alpine has the new engine and doesn’t even have 300hp so hitting the new emissions target shouldn’t be an issue...
But do the Alpines in question have the changes mentioned in the article? As soon as you're chaning turbos etc the cost to Renault if they have the convert these cars goes up significantly. Changing the head, even more so if that's necessary!Edited by kambites on Tuesday 24th July 18:53
HighwayStar said:
From the new 300hp Megane Trophy article elsewhere on PH...
“Such a slender improvement was probably not hard to coax from the still very new turbocharged 1.8-litre four-cylinder engine - the trick these days is to comply with the new Euro6d-Temp emission standards once you've finished tweaking. Consequently some of the Trophy's cleverer bits are to do with offsetting the increase in exhaust back pressure created by a new particulate filter. The efficiency of the turbocharger was deemed key to success, and its turbine now spins courtesy of a ceramic ball bearings, which is harder, lighter and smoother than steel and therefore quicker to spool.”
The Alpine has the new engine and doesn’t even have 300hp so hitting the new emissions target shouldn’t be an issue...
Many thanks Highway star- that is precisely my point.“Such a slender improvement was probably not hard to coax from the still very new turbocharged 1.8-litre four-cylinder engine - the trick these days is to comply with the new Euro6d-Temp emission standards once you've finished tweaking. Consequently some of the Trophy's cleverer bits are to do with offsetting the increase in exhaust back pressure created by a new particulate filter. The efficiency of the turbocharger was deemed key to success, and its turbine now spins courtesy of a ceramic ball bearings, which is harder, lighter and smoother than steel and therefore quicker to spool.”
The Alpine has the new engine and doesn’t even have 300hp so hitting the new emissions target shouldn’t be an issue...
An additional concern, being a PE deposit holder, is I was annoyed the hot engine (with new head) was being put in the Megane .If they need to use the new engine in the pure / legende then a power upgrade is an ecu flash when I need head work as a PE owner....
kambites said:
But do the Alpines in question have the changes mentioned in the article? As soon as you're chaning turbos etc the cost to Renault if they have the convert these cars goes up significantly. Changing the head, even more so if that's necessary!
This was all known prior to PE deliveries in the UK so I have no sympathy. Renault knew the new standards, knew the old engine wouldn’t make it and took the risk on timings. Edited by kambites on Tuesday 24th July 18:53
Let us not forget the new standards were not a surprise so Renault should have been planning for this.
I always said the new engine should have been in the halo model, not the hot hatch.
Was this faux pas a reason for the figureheads to move on when they did ?
Miserablegit said:
This was all known prior to PE deliveries in the UK so I have no sympathy. Renault knew the new standards, knew the old engine wouldn’t make it and took the risk on timings.
Yup, as far as I can see no-one is denying that and it does seem a bit bizzare given the timings that they didn't just make the thing compliant from the off... I guess they were worried that the extra engineering work to get the engine compliant would delay the release of the car but in the end the engine is ready before the car is. None of that helps them much now though. They have a load of cars they've already built or at least bougth the components for which they need to get registered before the new rules come in.
From September 2017 all new to market vehicles had to be tested under WLTP.
https://www.renault.co.uk/discover-renault/new-reg...
I presume the PE comes under this category so I am pretty sure they have this covered.
https://www.renault.co.uk/discover-renault/new-reg...
I presume the PE comes under this category so I am pretty sure they have this covered.
As I understand it the following is the state of the emissions tests in Europe:
Any car type approved after September 2017 must be Euro-6C (WLTP) and Euro-6D-temp (RDE) compliant
Any car sold after September 2018 needs to be Euro-6C compliant
Any car sold after September 2019 needs to be Euro-6D-temp compliant
If the A110 was type approved after September last year it'll be fine because it'll be compliant with both, however I took (perhaps incorrectly) from the posts above that it was type approved before September and hence is only Euro-6 compliant. If that's the case, they will need to get it 6C compliant by September this year and 6D-temp compliant by September next year. Any existing stock which doesn't meet those requirements as of those dates will not be allowed to be sold.
Any car type approved after September 2017 must be Euro-6C (WLTP) and Euro-6D-temp (RDE) compliant
Any car sold after September 2018 needs to be Euro-6C compliant
Any car sold after September 2019 needs to be Euro-6D-temp compliant
If the A110 was type approved after September last year it'll be fine because it'll be compliant with both, however I took (perhaps incorrectly) from the posts above that it was type approved before September and hence is only Euro-6 compliant. If that's the case, they will need to get it 6C compliant by September this year and 6D-temp compliant by September next year. Any existing stock which doesn't meet those requirements as of those dates will not be allowed to be sold.
Edited by kambites on Tuesday 24th July 21:41
kambites said:
As I understand it the following is the state of the emissions tests in Europe:
Any car type approved after September 2017 must be Euro-6C (WLTP) and Euro-6D-temp (RDE) compliant
Any car sold after September 2018 needs to be Euro-6C compliant
Any car sold after September 2019 needs to be Euro-6D-temp compliant
If the A110 was type approved after September last year it'll be fine because it'll be compliant with both, however I took (perhaps incorrectly) from the posts above that it was type approved before September and hence is only Euro-6 compliant. If that's the case, they will need to get it 6C compliant by September this year and 6D-temp compliant by September next year. Any existing stock which doesn't meet those requirements as of those dates will not be allowed to be sold.
I really can't believe the car was homologated in Euro 6.1. Rehomologating it to Euro 6.1 (6C) so soon when deliveries are just starting would be a complete waste of ressources (first because they would have designed the thing twice instead of once and secondly because making the homologation run costs money and time at a time in which the government agencies in charge are very busy).Any car type approved after September 2017 must be Euro-6C (WLTP) and Euro-6D-temp (RDE) compliant
Any car sold after September 2018 needs to be Euro-6C compliant
Any car sold after September 2019 needs to be Euro-6D-temp compliant
If the A110 was type approved after September last year it'll be fine because it'll be compliant with both, however I took (perhaps incorrectly) from the posts above that it was type approved before September and hence is only Euro-6 compliant. If that's the case, they will need to get it 6C compliant by September this year and 6D-temp compliant by September next year. Any existing stock which doesn't meet those requirements as of those dates will not be allowed to be sold.
Edited by kambites on Tuesday 24th July 21:41
Hmm....so a number of issues to consider a few weeks before I'm meant to take delivery of my PE.
1. Do I proceed in the hope the subsequent cars are detuned (to lower than PE power) to pass the regs (I can't see this being true) or
2. Do I wait, forget the PE and get a Pure with the detuned Megane engine and then get an ecu flash at a later date for more power than available in a PE?
1. Do I proceed in the hope the subsequent cars are detuned (to lower than PE power) to pass the regs (I can't see this being true) or
2. Do I wait, forget the PE and get a Pure with the detuned Megane engine and then get an ecu flash at a later date for more power than available in a PE?
Miserablegit said:
Hmm....so a number of issues to consider a few weeks before I'm meant to take delivery of my PE.
1. Do I proceed in the hope the subsequent cars are detuned (to lower than PE power) to pass the regs (I can't see this being true) or
2. Do I wait, forget the PE and get a Pure with the detuned Megane engine and then get an ecu flash at a later date for more power than available in a PE?
Is your dealer Winchester? I heard that the showroom there has taken delivery of the first cars in the UK.1. Do I proceed in the hope the subsequent cars are detuned (to lower than PE power) to pass the regs (I can't see this being true) or
2. Do I wait, forget the PE and get a Pure with the detuned Megane engine and then get an ecu flash at a later date for more power than available in a PE?
Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff