RE: Shed of the Week: Toyota Celica T-Sport 190

[mrnoisy78]

I initially looked at the VVTLI 190 T-Sport from a main dealer as a replacement for my JDM Celica SS2 2.0 and it was nowhere near as quick low down, nor did I feel at the time that it handled as well (although the SS2 got some suspension upgrades, you'd have thought the new model would have still be an improvement). The Mk6 I had was granted more of a cruiser than a proper race car, but this didn't feel like either, just didn't seem to fit any specific category.

I also agree on the previous comment about badly conceived gear ratios, just didn't come together well on a straight piece of road as you'd expect.
It took forever to get into 3 figures, very much a luke warm disappointment for me and I walked away feeling totally underwhelmed.
The only thing that was an improvement for me was the change to solid colour materials on the inside rather than the hideous multi patterned cloth interiors they used to put in the previous gen! Even the plastics looked a bit cheaper to me compared to those in the previous model.

External looks-wise, I felt it was a significant backward step, it lost that pumped up aggressive look just like the MR2 did, and Toyota have never really recovered since on the styling or engine front IMO.

I'd have another Celica but not this gen.

Edited by mrnoisy78 on Friday 15th December 12:37

[406highlander]

My lad has a Gen7 Celica (2000, so pre-facelift). It's the 140HP model.

Insurance is surprisingly good on these for younger drivers, while still delivering a visually striking car with a decent bit of punch to it. The shape of the car is a bit marmite, but I think it looks great - definitely very distinctive. It's a cool car.

This is one of those cars where the colour really makes a difference to its visual appeal, in my opinion. His is in Astral Black, which looks great, but while we were looking to buy, we looked at one in bright red (he didn't like it so much) and one in silver (he thought it was "OK" but I found it drab). I've also seen them in a really dark blue, which I think looks fantastic.

Stock 5-spoke 16in Toyota alloys have a HORRIBLE tendency to rust to hell. Serious paint bubbling/flaking. His alloys looked really scabby, so just replaced them with a set of 17in Toyota GT double-spokes, which look fantastic and appear to be less prone to corrosion.

Stock head unit was a bit knackered on his; the sound would randomly cut out. It's a double-DIN unit, and is ONLY the radio (doesn't have any other car-related controls built in to it, like with BMW iDrive, for example), so plenty of scope for replacing with decent after-market head units.

The rear bench has seating for two, and the seats are large enough for adults to use. His car has cloth interior but leather seats were also available. The rear seat-back folds down for additional load-lugging capacity.

It's genuinely a fun car for the twisty back-roads, is comfortable enough for long motorway trips, and isn't bad on fuel.

Downsides? Some parts are surprisingly expensive. I'd like to replace the weather seal for the boot door, but the cost is something stupid like £250 - for a long strip of rubber! Thankfully it seems to be reliable enough. We had to change the clutch shortly after purchase, but no issues since.

[muppet42]

Had been looking at these a little in my last car hunt last year, difficult to find a good one I found.

The only one I actually went out for a drive in (as passenger) was a pretty ratty non-face-lift 190 with no bodykit but at £800 I thought I may as well take a look. Milky sunroof, rusty (but original) alloys and an ill sounding engine at idle warded me off but it felt really good on the drive and took off when it did hit lift. Revved up in a similar way to the Accord Type R I'd briefly owned but felt far more urgent and of course, lighter on its feet despite how ragged it'd probably been.

Took a pass on it because of the engine health and slightly iffy owner, who it turned out hadn't registered it in his name(!) Wasn't a trader or anything either but maybe have been a legit reason for it.

Saw another, later, T-Sport further up north but it'd been sat for goodness knows how long on the sales court and looked a proper state compared with the pristine pictures. Was about the same price spec/price as the Shed car too but with well sub-100k miles but I walked away, especially as the dealer was about as shifty as you could get.

Anyway though, still a car that intrigues me but not in the same way something like a previous Gen-6 GT-Four would have. Also as usual, the JDM got a better version of it that I wouldn't actually mind(!)

Funnily enough, reading through the thread and seeing the stats on the 140, the 0-60 time is the same as my current Panda 100HP. Certainly would not rate that as being 'quick'

[JohnT993]

IIRC this is the same engine I had in my S2 Exige, and the best thing you can do with them is get the 'lift' point lowered from 6200 to 5700, it makes a hug difference to the drivability... its still a rev machine, but its easier to keep it in the power band. As standard you almost have to hit the rev limiter before changing to stay on cam!

[dufunk]

T Sport only weighs a max 1145kg and some maybe even 1100kg. 0-60 can be achieved between 6.2-6.5 it blows the GT86 out of the water to a ton. Toyota understated these figures for insurance purposes funny its such a sleeper you shock many a type r. People have slagged of the gear ratios but for economy it great you can be in 6th at 30mph no problem. Lift is so raw compared to the K20 it may be narrow but your have plenty below the lift also due to it being advanced vvti and also lift.

Picked mine up for a grand try getting a type r for double that! Mines has 140k on the clock and drives like new. Id love that front bumper.

[PunterCam]

greenarrow said:

I test drove a Corolla TSport Extensively in 2004 and couldn't believe how gutless it felt outside of the "lift-zone". Any sort of roll on acceleration at motorway speeds need a change down at least a gear or 2.

Almost bought a 190 last year, I think it went for about £1100 on ebay. I still quite fancy one of these. The chap who said it was a poor mans DC2 is spot on IMO. Probably about 80% of the performance and handling for 20% of the money!

Yeah, I remember wondering why they were never mentioned (celica or corolla) in the same breath as the Hondas.. Always assumed these engines must have been very peaky, only making their big numbers for a tiny fraction of the rev range.. It'd be interesting to see a dyno curve next to a type r.

I like these little cars - there's a nice "de-winged" one with an expensive sounding exhaust that drives by my house quite often... Looks and sounds so much more exotic than everything else these days, it's crazy.

[edward1]

i used to drive my bosses one of these back in the day. I was always pleasantly surprised by it. It was a nice enough place to be, I quite liked the styling and it went round corners pretty well. I never quite got used to the vvt engine though. At the time I was driving a v6 so it was a very different power-plant. I remember almost being caught out in an overtake when I shifted up a few hundred rpm too soon and dropped out the high lift range and it seemed to bog down for a moment. It was a scream once in the band though. I was even looking through the classified recently considering one but ended up with an alfa GT instead. Good shed for the money.

[Blackpuddin]

alorotom said:

SonicShadow said:

So you're backing up your point with the only 190 on eBay that's under a grand, and it's got a day to run on the auction so is likely to go for a lot more than that anyway?

Righto.

no, not at all, it was a quick example from a quick flick while preparing my brekkie - there are a few 190s currently under £500 rather than a grand - have a look, its not a locked away secret - its only as i have a saved search for cars under £500 (plus some other criteria) ending soon and seen a few finish in this category

oh and for ref... the single one pulled as an example, as of now there is 36mins left, 1 bid, still £500

Aye, and it's still rusty. Actually a bit rustier now than it was at the start of this thread.

[northyorksclassic]

chirstopher said:

Why do dealers think it's acceptable to write adverts in block capitals? I think it just makes them look a bit thick

Afternoon, I am the dealer selling this vehicle, interesting to read the comments on here about the car. I have been advertising cars for a number of years now and the feedback I get suggests that people do prefer the adverts in capitals. I do not think it makes the dealer "thick" in fact far from it, we advertise predominantly classic cars with the bulk of our customer base being elder and in some cases very elder individuals. They prefer the capitals to read, we also do the same in our printed advertisements and I guess it just becomes force of habit to type everything in block capital. Regards

[northyorksclassic]

kellyt said:

"No major rust"

Uh, so quite a lot of minor rust? I think I'll move along now.

There is actually no rust on the car visibly but people being what they are these days will find any which way they can to twist whatever you say rather than say something positive but hey thats us english to a tee . Why praise someone when its much more fun to knock them down

[Aidancky]

M1C said:

I feel old now.

I worked a Toyota at 18ish when these came out in 2001ish. For a young lad, driving one of these around...i did feel...'the nuts'.

Great car to drive with a frantic engine.

Strangely, the very same engine in the Corolla 190 of the time (very rare) just didn't have the same pull. It had a very different character.

I disagree, its exactly the same engine, and feels exactly the same because it is the same.
The only difference being you're sat lower and in a "sports car" in a celica, in a Corolla you're in an old mans hatchback with some mods.

[TaylotS2K]

Better car, but looks wise, I always preferred the Hyundai Coupe Gen2 to this.

[hardworker]

northyorksclassic said:

kellyt said:

"No major rust"

Uh, so quite a lot of minor rust? I think I'll move along now.

There is actually no rust on the car visibly but people being what they are these days will find any which way they can to twist whatever you say rather than say something positive but hey thats us english to a tee . Why praise someone when its much more fun to knock them down

Ain't this the truth.

[IntriguedUser]

You cannot change the lift point on the Corolla and Celica T sport unless you have a piggy back ECU. The lotus can be changed with the stock ECU.

2ZZGE is a great engine imo, you have to drive it to get it's performance. To those saying it's gutless below 6200 rpm, meh, a tad, but you're looking at the wrong car. Go and buy a diesel or a torque v6 motor.

These cars produce peak power at 7800rpm, and don't drop at all to the redline.

Gear ratios are a tad long, and as mentioned earlier could do with a lower lift point. Shame really.

I still like my Corolla though

[ZX10R NIN]

Did they do a supercharged version of this car like they did with the Corolla? If they did that would solve a few of the driveability issue I drove a Corolla with that engine & while the handling was still crap the engine was fun.

[duncs]

northyorksclassic said:

There is actually no rust on the car visibly but people being what they are these days will find any which way they can to twist whatever you say rather than say something positive but hey thats us english to a tee . Why praise someone when its much more fun to knock them down

I know what you mean, you cannot say 'no rust' without leaving yourself wide open, but saying 'no major rust' really does imply to me that there is quite a bit of minor rust present. I've no axe to grind about this, I'm sure it's a nice car, just some honest feedback on your choice or words. Bit more feedback, lose the capitals. It's much easier to read ordinary text than capitals (the brain reads the shape of the words rather than the actual letters) and tbh it just comes across as RATHER SHOUTY!

Car looks good to me, good luck with the sale

[danllama]

This is on my 'would like to own' list, but quite far down.

[Blackpuddin]

northyorksclassic said:

There is actually no rust on the car visibly but people being what they are these days will find any which way they can to twist whatever you say rather than say something positive but hey thats us english to a tee . Why praise someone when its much more fun to knock them down

well said

[rallycross]

This is one of those cars that turns out to be much better than expected when you buy one. Unlike the corolla t sport of the same age which is a dogs dinner attempt at a hot hatch is rubbish.

Having owned several integra type R I always dismissed this as a poor copy from Toyota with no LSD and relatively soft suspension.

But I bought one after it came up on a PH thread - it was a tidy 190 with fsh for £999.
Great fun if you really push on, sharp turn in and nice controllable lift off Oversteer - but it was also a very comfy quiet thing for motorway long trips and good on fuel and came with a load of nice extras and they are well made and seem fairly rust free.

I'd buy another if I didn't have my current 1988 Celica gt.

Edited by rallycross on Friday 15th December 18:21

[s m]

rallycross said:

This is one of those cars that turns out to be much better than expected when you buy one. Unlike the corolla t sport of the same age which is a dogs dinner attempt at a hot hatch is rubbish.

Having owned several integra type R I always dismissed this as a poor copy from Toyota with no LSD and relatively soft suspension.

But I bought one after it came up on a PH thread - it was a tidy 190 with fsh for £999.
Great fun if you really push on, sharp turn in and nice controllable lift off Oversteer - but it was also a very comfy quiet thing for motorway long trips and good on fuel and came with a load of nice extras and they are well made and seem fairly rust free.

I'd buy another if I didn't have my current 1988 Celica gt.

Edited by rallycross on Friday 15th December 18:21

The Sport M was the more hardcore version with extra power, LSD and extra stiffening/spot welds, uprated suspension and ARBs

The 190 was for the masses