RE: Porsche 911 Carrera T: Driven

RE: Porsche 911 Carrera T: Driven

Author
Discussion

saxy

150 posts

63 months

Tuesday 19th December 2017
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AndrewNR said:
Not much quicker than a Golf R
Well to be fair, a base carrera with PDK can do 0-60mph in 3.4second, 1/4 mile in 11.9.
A Golf R with DSG will do 4.5, and 13.1.

Around the track it’s no contest. It’s plenty fast for a sports car. But a Cayman GTS will probably beat it in most categories and cost much less and still carry the badge


Spice_Weasel

2,139 posts

192 months

Tuesday 19th December 2017
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Davey S2 said:
Summed up perfectly in the Porsche forum

Budflicker said:
Amazing marketing job by Porsche.

read this in your best german accent for full effect.

"Hey Hans! The 992 comes out soon, and we have all these 991.2 body shells and standard Carrera 370hp engines left over as nobody bought the base car"

"Don't worry Andreas, I have an idea! We will get them to make a snazzy interior like the GTS but we will also fit those silly door pulls that we have left over from the Spyder, then we will fit a few different cogs in the gearbox and put a letter T on the back and charge several thousand more for it. Oh and i know, to make it sound very special we will remove the rear seats and PCM but still charge for them. If any one gets funny about paying for them we will give it to them for free!"

"Hans you are a genius, they will be fighting over them at the dealers doors. A standard Carrera that nobody wanted is the new hot thing, hahahaha."

"Do you know what Andreas? Just to mess with their heads, lets only give them the rubbish black brakes as well so they have to buy the PCCB's to make it look half tidy"

Thanks Porsche.
This is pretty much the point I made to a mate of mine. 991 is in its final year of production and they have body shells and base Carrera engines to use up. I specced a Carrera T but with PCCBs and a few options, realised I was in S money and not far off GTS money.

I'd really love to see a modern Carrera Club Sport but this is not it.


ORD

12,543 posts

66 months

Tuesday 19th December 2017
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It’s a complete joke. Anyone buying one is a bit of a muppet.

911F

2,920 posts

129 months

Tuesday 19th December 2017
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Terribly written review, sorry - I can't make out whether it's good or not.

British Beef

1,156 posts

104 months

Thursday 21st December 2017
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aelord said:
Talk about damning with faint praise.

Always the way - they can't come out and slate it because that will wreck their relationship with Porsche and compromise access to new models to review etc. etc.

You just have to read between the lines - it's an underpowered turkey with a duff box and ratios.
Bingo! Agreed.


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cmoose

43,859 posts

168 months

Thursday 21st December 2017
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Spice_Weasel said:
This is pretty much the point I made to a mate of mine. 991 is in its final year of production and they have body shells and base Carrera engines to use up. I specced a Carrera T but with PCCBs and a few options, realised I was in S money and not far off GTS money.

I'd really love to see a modern Carrera Club Sport but this is not it.
To be honest, I doubt that very much. Porsche is nothing if not a very well oiled operation and I think it's exceedingly unlikely it has spare stock lying around that they wouldn't otherwise be able to shift.

But I agree this is no Clubsport and that it's a pity they didn't go just a bit further. That said I think the opportunity to do this car really well passed when the NA engine was dropped.

ORD

12,543 posts

66 months

Thursday 21st December 2017
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cmoose said:
To be honest, I doubt that very much. Porsche is nothing if not a very well oiled operation and I think it's exceedingly unlikely it has spare stock lying around that they wouldn't otherwise be able to shift.

But I agree this is no Clubsport and that it's a pity they didn't go just a bit further. That said I think the opportunity to do this car really well passed when the NA engine was dropped.
Yep. Once it is an auto turbo barge, the idea of a "lightweight" version is pretty silly. Once you go turbo, it is all about performance. Nobody complains that the 991 Turbo weighs the same as a small bus.

(This leaves to one side that the weight saving is so small as to be entirely pointless.)

hughfh

4 posts

85 months

Thursday 21st December 2017
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My take on Nic's review: it's a good car in the same way that the standard Carrera is a good car, further improved by (some of) the additional extras fitted to the car as standard e.g. lowered PASM chassis. The weaknesses of the car are inherited from the Carrera e.g. less than enthralling power output exacerbated by long gearing and lack of fizz nearing maximum revs. The manual gearbox is also apparently a weakness - in particular changing down out of 7th.

(Partially off topic but personally, I've had my fill of journalists bhing about how terrible this or that manual transmission is; tell me, is Porsche's manual worse than Ferrari's or Audi's or Mercedes' on their sport-oriented models? Oh that's right - they don't make them any more. Give it a rest now journalists, we get it. Manual bad, auto good. Let's hope some OEMs continue to defy your superior wisdom in this area.)

andrewparker

3,405 posts

126 months

Thursday 21st December 2017
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Saw on Twitter that Dan Trent has been driving one today. Not sure where his thoughts will be published, but interested to see what he thinks of it.

ORD

12,543 posts

66 months

Friday 22nd December 2017
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Even a bad manual is better than a good auto, I agree.

But why not make a decent manual? It’s not hard!

cmoose

43,859 posts

168 months

Friday 22nd December 2017
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The 'bad manual' thing is one of those analytical fashion items only loosely connected to the truth. It's taken on a life of its own. Meanwhile, the reviews don't notice the chronic brake over servo. Or whatever.

The original 991 shift was particularly detached. But it's been much improved since. By the end of 991.1 prod, they'd sorted it. I did about 3k miles last year in a turbo 991.2 Carrera S. The shift quality in that is better than, I dunno, a 987 Cayman. redface

There's the 7th gear thing but it's a tiny, tiny issue.

Ares

8,009 posts

59 months

Wednesday 27th December 2017
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ORD said:
Even a bad manual is better than a good auto, I agree.
Really can't understand that comment. Very blinkered (or written from a position of ignorance).


hondansx

3,299 posts

164 months

Monday 8th January 2018
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I don't get quite the judgement of the manual. I thought they revised it and improved it? I've heard it is a nice 'box to use now.

Then, this review mentions the final drive change and then refers to it as a change to the 'final cog'. I'm not that mechanically minded, but I thought the final drive was separate in the differential?

I do think the T is too expensive, but would be curious to know how much the standard Carrera would be versus the bits the T gets as standard (assume PSE and dampers at -10mm are not cheap).

I also don't understand how removing rear seats, PCM, sound proofing and fitting lighter glass only results in 20kg saving...?

It's such a shame though that they didn't reduce it by a good 70kg or so... surely possible with more parts bin raiding (magnesium roof, 918 seats as standard, PCCBs, GT3 hubs and wheels)

cmoose

43,859 posts

168 months

Monday 8th January 2018
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Ares said:
ORD said:
Even a bad manual is better than a good auto, I agree.
Really can't understand that comment. Very blinkered (or written from a position of ignorance).
Why should it be blinkered? If manual shifting is central to your enjoyment of a driver's car, it's perfectly reasonable to prefer a bad manual to an auto.

The original 991.1 Carrera had a pretty mediocre shift. But it still had a glorious nasp flat six, so there was much joy to be had rev matching. It would have been better had the shift felt nicer, but you still got control over the process and timing of the gear change, clutch actuation and rev matching. And personally, it would still have been far preferable to going with PDK, which gives me zero enjoyment and involvement from pressing a button.

You may prefer PDK to a bad or even good manual. Fair enough. But afraid I'd have to say that what is blinkered is your implied assumption that PDK is automatically preferable to a bad / flawed manual.

ORD

12,543 posts

66 months

Monday 8th January 2018
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Ares said:
ORD said:
Even a bad manual is better than a good auto, I agree.
Really can't understand that comment. Very blinkered (or written from a position of ignorance).
I owned a PDK car for a couple of years. I found myself getting more pleasure from pretty much any manual car, no matter how bad the gearbox. For a lot of drivers, autos are autos are autos.

Ares

8,009 posts

59 months

Monday 8th January 2018
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cmoose said:
Ares said:
ORD said:
Even a bad manual is better than a good auto, I agree.
Really can't understand that comment. Very blinkered (or written from a position of ignorance).
Why should it be blinkered? If manual shifting is central to your enjoyment of a driver's car, it's perfectly reasonable to prefer a bad manual to an auto.

The original 991.1 Carrera had a pretty mediocre shift. But it still had a glorious nasp flat six, so there was much joy to be had rev matching. It would have been better had the shift felt nicer, but you still got control over the process and timing of the gear change, clutch actuation and rev matching. And personally, it would still have been far preferable to going with PDK, which gives me zero enjoyment and involvement from pressing a button.

You may prefer PDK to a bad or even good manual. Fair enough. But afraid I'd have to say that what is blinkered is your implied assumption that PDK is automatically preferable to a bad / flawed manual.
No. And your final sentence proves the point.

To say 'I prefer a bad manual to a good auto' is fine.
To say 'I find a bad manual to be better than a good auto' is fine.
To say 'I don't like autos so would take a manual, even if it is st' is fine.
To even say ' I think even a bad manual is better than a good auto' is fine.

But to say "Even a bad manual is better than a good auto" is wrong, or written from a point of ignorance, or blinkered, or disingenuous.

Facts Vs Opinions etc....

Ares

8,009 posts

59 months

Monday 8th January 2018
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ORD said:
Ares said:
ORD said:
Even a bad manual is better than a good auto, I agree.
Really can't understand that comment. Very blinkered (or written from a position of ignorance).
I owned a PDK car for a couple of years. I found myself getting more pleasure from pretty much any manual car, no matter how bad the gearbox. For a lot of drivers, autos are autos are autos.
True, but for a lot of drivers, cars are cars are cars.

ORD

12,543 posts

66 months

Monday 8th January 2018
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Good Lord, not that old chestnut again. When a person expresses an opinion, they express an opinion. It adds nothing (apart from avoiding upsetting snowflakes) to add "in my opinion". An opinion is an opinion; it does not need a little badge on it pointing this out.

All IMO, of course.

cmoose

43,859 posts

168 months

Monday 8th January 2018
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Ares said:
No. And your final sentence proves the point.

To say 'I prefer a bad manual to a good auto' is fine.
To say 'I find a bad manual to be better than a good auto' is fine.
To say 'I don't like autos so would take a manual, even if it is st' is fine.
To even say ' I think even a bad manual is better than a good auto' is fine.

But to say "Even a bad manual is better than a good auto" is wrong, or written from a point of ignorance, or blinkered, or disingenuous.

Facts Vs Opinions etc....
Your fundamental error here is that you are imposing the status of claimed fact on what was an unambiguous statement of opinion.

We are all (well, mostly!) adults here and you would think that the constant hand holding, qualification and flagging up regarding what are opinions wouldn't be necessary.

The 'I think' 'I find' etc is entirely redundant. If ORD says, 'a bad manual is better than a good auto' it adds nothing to preface that with 'I think'. That's inherent in the statement. Prefacing it with 'I think' doesn't suddenly make his view compatible with somebody who thinks the opposite. He still thinks the other person is wrong, or else he would hold the same opinion. Which he doesn't. It changes nothing.

CM954

498 posts

124 months

Monday 8th January 2018
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What does this have over a base Carerra?
What are the price and weight implications of that?

Does the result give a dynamic advantage and / or could the same result be achieved by judicious use of the options sheet on a base Carrera?

The deletion of rear seats, thinner glass, removal of sound deadening and different ratios are all things I assume can't be achieved by optioning a base Carrera.
If I took the rear seats out of a base Carerra (or put them back into this one), would that outweigh (pun intended) the differences in this model's USP?

It doesn't sound like the different ratios have made that much of an impact - and surely even Porsche buyers would be embarrassed to pay more for a car that has thinner glass, less sound deadening yet somehow didn't weigh less than the equivalent of losing an inch off your waistline?

If the ratios are even a small improvement - doesn't it come down to a comparison of what you're paying for that minor gain (and then a comparison with a GTS at a similar option level, as a comparison on any other basis is meaningless)?



Edited by CM954 on Monday 8th January 14:33