Longevity - Lack of

[captain_cynic]

eldar said:

Depends what the cars were. electrical or mechanical issues easily cost more than a10 year old car is worth.

I think that was the OP's point. Planned obsolescence. Are modern cars designed to permit failure?

I think they are, but it's a combination of things. Planned obsolescence is a thing, that doesn't mean cars are built to fail, but they aren't built to last either. Combine that with the fact cars depreciate so rapidly in the UK, the weather causing rust issues, MOTs and the general lack of mechanical sympathy from most drivers.

[MDMetal]

Are cars also the last thing (apart from houses) that people consider paying to fix? It's amazing the simple issues that cause people to ditch a car for. Years ago of course if the TV/radio/fridge broke you'd phone up your local repair man who would toddle round and work his magic. Nowadays parts can't be replaced and it's cheaper to just replace things I assume this has now trickled down to cars.

[Alex_225]

The trouble is that buying a car is so easy for people be it through finance or loans that so many think that a car is ready for the scrap heap at 60k or more! In turn older cars that have been used for years that end up almost worthless just get binned. It is a shame as cars that would become more and more interesting become rarer and rarer.

I quite like the fact that my daily car is a 14 year old tank that just soldiers on and on. Admittedly it's not old enough or cheap enough to throw away easily bit I like the idea of it just going on and on.

I suppose if you love a car enough, if it's fun or means something to you then money isn't the question when it comes to keeping it on the road. For many though, it's just a tin can on wheels so if it's just a tool to drive you around then they just get binned. Shame for some more interesting vehicles though.

[Aidancky]

Probably scrappage scheme. But it also depends on the manufacturer really. I have had a lot of Toyotas, and they seem to last really well. In my opinion a lot of the french stuff around that time seems like it was designed to fail.

[Hungrymc]

loskie said:

Possibly because people in the UK are generally so materialistic, shallow and vein.

Pillock

[tannhauser]

Hungrymc said:

loskie said:

Possibly because people in the UK are generally so materialistic, shallow and vein.

Pillock

True though.

[Willy Nilly]

captain_cynic said:

eldar said:

Depends what the cars were. electrical or mechanical issues easily cost more than a10 year old car is worth.

I think that was the OP's point. Planned obsolescence. Are modern cars designed to permit failure?

I think they are, but it's a combination of things. Planned obsolescence is a thing, that doesn't mean cars are built to fail, but they aren't built to last either. Combine that with the fact cars depreciate so rapidly in the UK, the weather causing rust issues, MOTs and the general lack of mechanical sympathy from most drivers.

Cars are more durable than ever. The issue is that in the UK used cars are dirt cheap and often the cost of repair is what the car is worth, so people don;t think the car is worth repairing. That is not to say the car is beyond repair.

The UK does buy a lot of cars, but I would doubt that our car market is big enough for it to have too much influence on designed in obsolescence. I suspect that a lot of the duty cycle testing, if that is the correct term, is broadly the same to make it cheaper to develop cars.

[Hungrymc]

tannhauser said:

True though.

Nope, A poor, poor follower to NA in this respect and not a million miles apart from other developed nations? Its just the kind of thing some people like to spout to make themselves feel superior.... Which in turn sounds massively insecure.

[Speed addicted]

captain_cynic said:

eldar said:

Depends what the cars were. electrical or mechanical issues easily cost more than a10 year old car is worth.

I think that was the OP's point. Planned obsolescence. Are modern cars designed to permit failure?

I think they are, but it's a combination of things. Planned obsolescence is a thing, that doesn't mean cars are built to fail, but they aren't built to last either. Combine that with the fact cars depreciate so rapidly in the UK, the weather causing rust issues, MOTs and the general lack of mechanical sympathy from most drivers.

The thing is that cars are now packed with technology, if you look at the price of cars compared to inflation they're not really much more expensive than they were in the 80s, but are now full of expensive gubbins.
Something has to give, and in the most case it's build quality. Unfortunately you can't really see build quality when you buy it for the most part, it becomes apparent later when the car is on it's second or third owner. Would you pay a few thousand extra for something that'll never affect you?

Its also peoples reaction to cars needing maintenance. They need the least looking after ever, but people still won't spend the money on what is likely to be the second most expensive thing they own.
I recently talked my dad into getting the slightly rusty arches on his 10 year old S-Type Jaguar painted instead of spending about £10k on something newer. He was thinking about spending £10k to save £900 and still likes the car.

Don't get me wrong, I've owned 20 cars and 9 bikes in the last 22 years, I change them when I'm bored of them. I may well use the excuse that it's needing something done to the wife but it's almost always boredom!

[Skyedriver]

bearman68 said:

Well, here's a HI, from someone who's running a W reg, a 51 plate, a 53 plate, a 55 plate, and an 08 plate. I normally do 1 or 2 big jobs on something every year, but no depreciation. (and no touch screens). They can be made to run indefinitely with a bit of skill and love. - though it's going to be the electrical failure that kill them eventually. I had a 1930 swift in the workshop last year, and I reckon I could have run that for another 90 years with basic tools and wearing parts. Not so easy to make an obsolete 90 year old ECU run correctly

1991 Caterham
1996 TVR
1998 Volvo 940

All can be fixed relatively easily without the aid of a computer and diagnostic programme

[hotchy]

I love my dirty 57 diesel with no dpf. Iv always wanted a car that iv loved enough to keep it going and going. Finally have one. Had it 8 years and its the only car iv ever owned that iv not got bored of. If someone smashes it, ill be lost. I want it to see 300k.

Itll come toma time ill get a new car ( a mustang tbh, always wanted one) but this little diesel homda will still be on my drive.

[Mr2Mike]

Hungrymc said:

Nope, A poor, poor follower to NA in this respect and not a million miles apart from other developed nations? Its just the kind of thing some people like to spout to make themselves feel superior.... Which in turn sounds massively insecure.

Not everyone of course, but there are an awful lot of very insecure, materialistic people that feel they have to own certain badges or labels to secure their own social standing. Deeply sad.

[laters]

We had a visit from my sister in law and mother in law last night who had just collected their new Ford Kuga.
Its their second Kuga with the last one being just under 4 years old when she decided she wanted a different colour.
As they were getting out of their car they were talking to neighbour across street who had just got his new vauxhall mokka.

They were both discussing how much better their new cars are and how fantastic they think they are.

As soon as they came into the house they were asking us when we were getting a new car.
Both myself and my wife are happy with the older cars we have.
The family CR-V that I mainly drive is 12 years old now & does everything I want it to do. Starts, stops and has a great heater with heated seats that are perfect for the weather we are having.

When I asked why I would want a new car they told me because my car is old and unreliable.
When I told them I don't care how old it is. There is no visible rust or signs of its age other than the odd dent and scratch plus in the 3 years of ownership it has never let us down and starts every time.

Just to add interest I did tell them I am going to start looking around for another car at some point this year but its going to be a classic/modern classic and at least 25 to 30 years old.
(that will be added to our cars we currently own not instead of)
They cant comprehend why I would want to own a old car when I could put the money down on a brand new car.

[captain_cynic]

Willy Nilly said:

Cars are more durable than ever.

Coming from Australia where it was not unusual to see a 20+ yr old Mazda, Holden or Toyota (German marques did not become common until the last decade) I'd have to disagree. A 1990 model Camry will still be going where as a 2008 Golf will be falling apart.

Also due to the high prices of cars in Australia, used cars held a lot more of their value.

Speed addicted said:

The thing is that cars are now packed with technology, if you look at the price of cars compared to inflation they're not really much more expensive than they were in the 80s, but are now full of expensive gubbins.
Something has to give, and in the most case it's build quality. Unfortunately you can't really see build quality when you buy it for the most part, it becomes apparent later when the car is on it's second or third owner. Would you pay a few thousand extra for something that'll never affect you?

This.

It's also why options do not affect the 2nd hand price of cars, most of the electronics will be out of date by the time the average lease car is on the 2nd hand market anyway. Longevity and long term reliability are no longer priorities, in fact falling apart not long after the warranty expires is considered a good thing as it encourages people to buy new cars.

Speed addicted said:

Its also peoples reaction to cars needing maintenance. They need the least looking after ever, but people still won't spend the money on what is likely to be the second most expensive thing they own.

This is what I meant by a general lack of mechanical sympathy (that and people seem not to care how badly they treat their cars). For most people, they treat them as whitegoods, a washing machine on wheels.

[mat205125]

Keep it stiff said:

Sitting in traffic alongside a breakers truck with three cars stacked on it, a 52 plate, a 53 plate and a 55 plate, none had collision damage. As a random trio heading to the breakers yard are these ages representative of typical longevity we should expect?

I'd class about 15 years of service as pretty good for a daily driver.

Those of us of a certain age grew up with cars, or parents with cars, which would typically dissolve to dust in less than 10 years as a norm, or would require major engine overhauls before 100k miles (sometimes far less).

If looked after, a 10 to 15 year old car these days will show very little wear and tear cosmetically, and should have a good chance of being mechanically sound in the engine and gearbox.

A trip to the scrappy will be down to something less visibly obvious, however potentially making the repair uneconomical ...... New Cat and a back box for a 52 plate 1.6 focus would be enough to send a "good car" to the scrap pile.

[Geekman]

A lot of it is due to the technology in modern cars - many more premium brands can’t have fault codes read or modules coded by a backstreet garage, you have to take it to the main dealer or specialist, which pushes the price up.

The security module in the steering column of my £3500 2005 A6 failed recently, leaving me stranded in my work car park, unable to start it. In the brief time I had to do research, I couldn’t find anyone who would be able to replace and recode the module, so when my breakdown cover company turned up, I had to tell them to take it straight to the main dealer to sort it out. It’s taken over a week and cost £1750 - I suspect many people would have scrapped it / sold it for spares when faced with a bill like that, especially as I’ve only had the car a few weeks.

[FiF]

Geekman said:

A lot of it is due to the technology in modern cars - many more premium brands can’t have fault codes read or modules coded by a backstreet garage, you have to take it to the main dealer or specialist, which pushes the price up.

The security module in the steering column of my £3500 2005 A6 failed recently, leaving me stranded in my work car park, unable to start it. In the brief time I had to do research, I couldn’t find anyone who would be able to replace and recode the module, so when my breakdown cover company turned up, I had to tell them to take it straight to the main dealer to sort it out. It’s taken over a week and cost £1750 - I suspect many people would have scrapped it / sold it for spares when faced with a bill like that, especially as I’ve only had the car a few weeks.

Precisely, a lot of the posts on the thread about the ease of doing repair work on older vehicles seem to recount what boils down to nuts and bolts spanner work, not coded electronics.

[Jag_NE]

we have (i think) a bit of a weird view in the UK whereby if a car throws up a bill that is close to or more than the cars worth, it is deemed not economical to repair it. While I would agree with this from an insurance perspective OR if it was a car that I hadn't owned, if a car is an otherwise solid car it can make sense to pay the bill, probably in most cases.

Example, if I had owned a car for years but it had an effective market value of say £800 quid but needed a new clutch for £700, many people would just scrap it. If I know the car is otherwise solid and reliable, there is a bloody good chance that its better value long term to fix it versus going out and spending 5k on a potential lemon that someone has shifted on. I get it that some people may just use the circumstances as an excuse to change as they are bored of the old car, or they may have owned it from new and want to start another 15 year cycle off on a brand new one.

[OldGermanHeaps]

FiF said:

Geekman said:

A lot of it is due to the technology in modern cars - many more premium brands can’t have fault codes read or modules coded by a backstreet garage, you have to take it to the main dealer or specialist, which pushes the price up.

The security module in the steering column of my £3500 2005 A6 failed recently, leaving me stranded in my work car park, unable to start it. In the brief time I had to do research, I couldn’t find anyone who would be able to replace and recode the module, so when my breakdown cover company turned up, I had to tell them to take it straight to the main dealer to sort it out. It’s taken over a week and cost £1750 - I suspect many people would have scrapped it / sold it for spares when faced with a bill like that, especially as I’ve only had the car a few weeks.

Precisely, a lot of the posts on the thread about the ease of doing repair work on older vehicles seem to recount what boils down to nuts and bolts spanner work, not coded electronics.

Thats a £50 part from the scrappy and the cable and software to do the coding is under £50 from ebay(carprog can read the old eeprom then dump the contents on the replacement from the scrappy you cant do it with vcds), 45 mins to strip the one from the scrappy, about an hour disassembling both and copying the eeprom over, and about an hour putting it back in your car as you take more care than you do stripping parts in a scrappy. With an hour or 2 reading on the internet and learning some new skills there is no need to get raped just because electrics are scary and complicated. Unfortunately a lot of garage mechanics out there don't want to learn either and just turn the work away in favour of doing stuff that can be done with a couple of spanners and a hammer.
Even if you dont want to learn how to flash an eeprom yourself you can send your old unit to bba and they will do it with a lifetime warranty on the repair for £295, and they can turn it around in under a week, so no worse than audi. Those glass palaces need to be paid for somehow i suppose.

Edited by OldGermanHeaps on Tuesday 16th January 21:00

[SidewaysSi]

OldGermanHeaps said:

FiF said:

Geekman said:

A lot of it is due to the technology in modern cars - many more premium brands can’t have fault codes read or modules coded by a backstreet garage, you have to take it to the main dealer or specialist, which pushes the price up.

The security module in the steering column of my £3500 2005 A6 failed recently, leaving me stranded in my work car park, unable to start it. In the brief time I had to do research, I couldn’t find anyone who would be able to replace and recode the module, so when my breakdown cover company turned up, I had to tell them to take it straight to the main dealer to sort it out. It’s taken over a week and cost £1750 - I suspect many people would have scrapped it / sold it for spares when faced with a bill like that, especially as I’ve only had the car a few weeks.

Precisely, a lot of the posts on the thread about the ease of doing repair work on older vehicles seem to recount what boils down to nuts and bolts spanner work, not coded electronics.

Thats a £50 part from the scrappy and the cable and software to do the coding is under £50 from ebay(carprog can read the old eeprom then dump the contents on the replacement from the scrappy you cant do it with vcds), 45 mins to strip the one from the scrappy, about an hour disassembling both and copying the eeprom over, and about an hour putting it back in your car as you take more care than you do stripping parts in a scrappy. With an hour or 2 reading on the internet and learning some new skills there is no need to get raped just because electrics are scary and complicated. Unfortunately a lot of garage mechanics out there don't want to learn either and just turn the work away in favour of doing stuff that can be done with a couple of spanners and a hammer.
Even if you dont want to learn how to flash an eeprom yourself you can send your old unit to bba and they will do it with a lifetime warranty on the repair for £295, and they can turn it around in under a week, so no worse than audi. Those glass palaces need to be paid for somehow i suppose.

Edited by OldGermanHeaps on Tuesday 16th January 21:00

Yep, kick him when he is down.