Can cars get any wider?

Can cars get any wider?

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Discussion

jimPH

Original Poster:

3,981 posts

79 months

Monday 15th January 2018
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Since we bought the M-lite, I've really been enjoying it's smaller dimensions, mostly it's width, because even that isn't a small car being over 4m long.

I remember following a friend down some back lanes in his hot hatch, me in a wide body Porsche and he was having a lot more fun than I was, I just couldn't keep up, the car felt so wide it was unnerving.

So the idea of an M2 really appeals, until I saw one. I was shocked just how wide they were, turns out they run the M4 axles and they are even longer than the Porsche.

Maybe the driving position and overall height makes the car feel smaller?

How wide can we go from here? Have we reached the maximum width or roads can take? Even cars that are considered "compact" are much wider than yesterday's sports offerings. Suffice to say, the M2 just lost its appeal.

Since our second daughter has arrived, the wife wants a bigger car to replace the M-Lite!

carlingofblack

363 posts

163 months

Monday 15th January 2018
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Agreed - everything new is bloated these days, probably down to safety regulations and constant updates in that regard. Small cars are not really that small anymore.
It is very clear to see that previous generation models are more compact than today’s and even medium sized cars such as the current gen 3 series won’t fit into many single garages due to width.
There’s a car park in Redditch that has now revamped its spaces diagonally rather than square on presumably to allow our ever widening cars into them with space to open the door.
It will have been said but like for like comparisons of the old vs new Mini, Fiat 500 really bring it home.

Edited by carlingofblack on Monday 15th January 07:55

Willy Nilly

12,511 posts

166 months

Monday 15th January 2018
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You can still buy small cars.

kambites

67,462 posts

220 months

Monday 15th January 2018
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BMWs (and Audis and Mercs) do tend to be particularly poorly packaged. When we were buying the last family car we drove an Octavia and an E90 3-series back to back; what surprised me wasn't that the BMW felt far bulkier on the road but that the interior was horribly cramped in comparison.

Ninja59

3,691 posts

111 months

Monday 15th January 2018
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Most of bmw's range is around 1.8m wide only the i8, x5, x6, new 6GT and 7 appear to go past 1.9m wide. The standard 1 and 2 are the only ones below 1.8m wide but only just.

The fact of the matter that surprises me is there is little between the 6GC i have and an M2 in width. Length wise yes there is quite a difference. More scary is the new 6GT is wider than my 6GC and even longer. The 6GC struggles as it is in the UK!

TooMany2cvs

29,008 posts

125 months

Monday 15th January 2018
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jimPH said:
How wide can we go from here? Have we reached the maximum width or roads can take?
Maximum legal width for UK roads is generally 2550mm. Bin wagons, fire engines, ambulances and the like take full advantage of that, and go pretty much everywhere in the country.

So, no, there's a chunk further to go yet...

kambites

67,462 posts

220 months

Monday 15th January 2018
quotequote all
TooMany2cvs said:
Maximum legal width for UK roads is generally 2550mm.
Not many car parks will take a car that wide, though. There's also an awful lot of roads where it's impossible for two lorries to pass without slowing to a crawl and/or driving on the verges/pavements.

CraigyMc

16,333 posts

235 months

Monday 15th January 2018
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kambites said:
BMWs (and Audis and Mercs) do tend to be particularly poorly packaged. When we were buying the last family car we drove an Octavia and an E90 3-series back to back; what surprised me wasn't that the BMW felt far bulkier on the road but that the interior was horribly cramped in comparison.
Isn't that more of a function of the BMW having to be packaged with a north-south engine installation and a RWD transmission (requiring a tunnel rear diff, etc) - for the bigger models?
The Octavia is transverse and so all that gubbins is in front of the bulkhead, hence the cabin itself is free of intrusion.

I wonder if the suspension setups use up more space on the BMW too.

kambites

67,462 posts

220 months

Monday 15th January 2018
quotequote all
CraigyMc said:
Isn't that more of a function of the BMW having to be packaged with a north-south engine installation and a RWD transmission (requiring a tunnel rear diff, etc) - for the bigger models?
The Octavia is transverse and so all that gubbins is in front of the bulkhead, hence the cabin itself is free of intrusion.
That would naturally make them longer, but I'm not sure why it'd really make them wider? Maybe it's just a styling thing to deal with the extra length? The transmission tunnel argument would make sense if the Octavia platform didn't support 4wd models, but it does.

TooMany2cvs

29,008 posts

125 months

Monday 15th January 2018
quotequote all
kambites said:
TooMany2cvs said:
Maximum legal width for UK roads is generally 2550mm.
Not many car parks will take a car that wide, though.
Standard parking space is 4.8m x 2.4m - but that doesn't stop people buying longer cars.

kambites said:
There's also an awful lot of roads where it's impossible for two lorries to pass without slowing to a crawl and/or driving on the verges/pavements.
There's a heck of a lot of roads where that applies to two cars, too...

kambites

67,462 posts

220 months

Monday 15th January 2018
quotequote all
TooMany2cvs said:
There's a heck of a lot of roads where that applies to two cars, too...
True, but they tend to be much less busy ones. Around here at least there's a good few two-lane B-roads which aren't wide enough for two lorries to pass comfortably (including a large chunk of my commute). Plenty of people seem to struggle to keep their Range Rovers on the correct side of the road, I dread to think what they would be like in something half a meter wider. hehe

Edited by kambites on Monday 15th January 09:20

likesachange

2,630 posts

193 months

Monday 15th January 2018
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I had my newly aquired Zenos parked up next to an Elise thinking it was just the bodywork/roofless design that made it look wide and thought is was similar dimensions as the lotus... Nope the Zenos is 6" wides! And the Zenos is designed to be a lightweight track special..


CraigyMc

16,333 posts

235 months

Monday 15th January 2018
quotequote all
kambites said:
CraigyMc said:
Isn't that more of a function of the BMW having to be packaged with a north-south engine installation and a RWD transmission (requiring a tunnel rear diff, etc) - for the bigger models?
The Octavia is transverse and so all that gubbins is in front of the bulkhead, hence the cabin itself is free of intrusion.
That would naturally make them longer, but I'm not sure why it'd really make them wider? Maybe it's just a styling thing to deal with the extra length? The transmission tunnel argument would make sense if the Octavia platform didn't support 4wd models, but it does.
When you shove a gearbox between the driver and the passenger, the car gets wider than if there wasn't one there.

Not sure if you've compared the transmission tunnel on a (for example) F30 3er versus an octavia - the one in the 3er is much bigger, almost relegating the centre rear seat to "for those with no legs". I suppose the space has to be commiserate with running the M3 transmission through it, rather than (for example) whatever the torque split is on the rear portion of the octavia 4wd system.

kambites

67,462 posts

220 months

Monday 15th January 2018
quotequote all
CraigyMc said:
When you shove a gearbox between the driver and the passenger, the car gets wider than if there wasn't one there.

Not sure if you've compared the transmission tunnel on a (for example) F30 3er versus an octavia - the one in the 3er is much bigger, almost relegating the centre rear seat to "for those with no legs". I suppose the space has to be commiserate with running the M3 transmission through it, rather than (for example) whatever the torque split is on the rear portion of the octavia 4wd system.
I suppose if you're pushing the gearbox that far back as in a BMW or Merc that makes sense. However, the A4 has the same issue and that's got its gearbox mounted largely in front of the firewall.

I'm not sure how much bigger rear differentials get in order to handle more power. I suppose you need larger gears to handle more prop-shaft torque but in my experience, the difference in external dimensions isn't huge.


Edited by kambites on Monday 15th January 09:35

TooMany2cvs

29,008 posts

125 months

Monday 15th January 2018
quotequote all
CraigyMc said:
When you shove a gearbox between the driver and the passenger, the car gets wider than if there wasn't one there.
Or the car stays the same width, but the footwells get narrower.

There's a gearbox between driver and passenger in a Caterham, in a Moggy Thou, in a Mk1 Escort, in...

Crumpet

3,877 posts

179 months

Monday 15th January 2018
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I have to say that I don’t find driving a 2.0m+ Discovery to be any more restrictive or compromised than driving a 1.75m wide hatchback. On normal A and B roads there’s simply no issue and on country lanes I’d have to slow down and pull towards the verge whatever I’m driving.

If a car feels too wide for the road when you’re pressing on I’d suggest the road really isn’t suitable for spirited driving in the first place. When you were following your friend in your Porsche I expect he just had bigger balls and/or was more reckless.


Edited by Crumpet on Monday 15th January 09:35

Integroo

11,574 posts

84 months

Monday 15th January 2018
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I've noticed everything now seems to be the size of the model up. The new Civic is the size of an Accord from ten years ago, the new Mondeo is enormous. I think it is partly (i) everyone loves big SUVs now and the market is moving in that direction (my girlfriend, who is 5' and doing lessons, wants to buy a defender when she passes - what?); and (ii) safety requirements.

CraigyMc

16,333 posts

235 months

Monday 15th January 2018
quotequote all
kambites said:
I suppose if you're pushing the gearbox that far back as in a BMW or Merc that makes sense. However, the A4 has the same issue and that's got its gearbox mounted largely in front of the firewall.
Isn't that because they mount the engine so far forward that the car develops a reputation for understeer?

smile

I am comparing a 3er BMW with an octavia anyway, as examples of sporting RWD versus utilitarian FWD.

Rawwr

22,722 posts

233 months

Monday 15th January 2018
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Heh, I remember when the XJ220 first appeared and people were stunned that it was just over 2 metres wide and how ridiculous it was for a UK road car. It seems like sensible family hatchbacks aren't far off that now smile

swisstoni

16,855 posts

278 months

Monday 15th January 2018
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There is no reason for cars to get any wider IMHO. Roads aren't getting any wider. Humans are the same size. Only rarely are car parking spaces made wide enough.
It quite amazes me how few times cars clip each other as it is.