Can cars get any wider?
Discussion
CraigyMc said:
Isn't that because they mount the engine so far forward that the car develops a reputation for understeer?
Indeed, but my point was that the Audi is just as bad in terms of width packaging as the BMW so the cause is presumably not, or at least not solely, the width of the gearbox within the transmission tunnel. I think a large part of it is styling; compact execs tend to have glass-houses significantly narrower than their hips where boring family hatches are a bit more "straight up-and-down" at the sides. I was amazed at how much wider the E90 felt than the E46.
Edited by kambites on Monday 15th January 10:13
Its not just performance stuff though.
Look at Volvo's new offerings.
They might be nice cars, but I could never buy the new XC90 or V90, as it would make parking in the usual places impossible, as its just too wide, the doors are too thick, you can't lift kids in and out both sides whilst parked between two cars in a normal sized space.
Look at Volvo's new offerings.
They might be nice cars, but I could never buy the new XC90 or V90, as it would make parking in the usual places impossible, as its just too wide, the doors are too thick, you can't lift kids in and out both sides whilst parked between two cars in a normal sized space.
Krikkit said:
Isn't part of it related to performance requirements?
The M2 is very much a car defined and benchmarked for its grip, hence a wide axle setup is favourable. Same with all the "fast" models of smaller cars - widen the track withwider wheels = increase in grip.
It's not the absolute track width which matters there, it's the ratio of the width to the height of the centre of gravity. I don't know how the CoG of something like an M2 compares to, say, an E30 M3? The M2 is very much a car defined and benchmarked for its grip, hence a wide axle setup is favourable. Same with all the "fast" models of smaller cars - widen the track withwider wheels = increase in grip.
It's certainly part of what's pushed modern SUVs up to quite such ridiculous widths.
I'm probably wrong here but does the new 7 series BMW have a remote built into the key that allows you to drive it forward and backwards to get it into and out of a garage while you are outside the car? I was told that this was because it was too wide to open the doors in the average garage. It may be complete b
ks though.
ks though.ExPat2B said:
Its not just performance stuff though.
Look at Volvo's new offerings.
They might be nice cars, but I could never buy the new XC90 or V90, as it would make parking in the usual places impossible, as its just too wide, the doors are too thick, you can't lift kids in and out both sides whilst parked between two cars in a normal sized space.
But all 4x4's and large saloons suffer this issue, I parked next an old RRS the other day and it filled the bay and thus restricted my space.Look at Volvo's new offerings.
They might be nice cars, but I could never buy the new XC90 or V90, as it would make parking in the usual places impossible, as its just too wide, the doors are too thick, you can't lift kids in and out both sides whilst parked between two cars in a normal sized space.
Crumpet said:
I have to say that I don’t find driving a 2.0m+ Discovery to be any more restrictive or compromised than driving a 1.75m wide hatchback. On normal A and B roads there’s simply no issue and on country lanes I’d have to slow down and pull towards the verge whatever I’m driving.
If a car feels too wide for the road when you’re pressing on I’d suggest the road really isn’t suitable for spirited driving in the first place. When you were following your friend in your Porsche I expect he just had bigger balls and/or was more reckless.
The point is, that Porsche isn't wide by today's standards, in fact a car with less power that is considered to be compact by today's standards, is actually even bigger. The Porsche felt wide enough.If a car feels too wide for the road when you’re pressing on I’d suggest the road really isn’t suitable for spirited driving in the first place. When you were following your friend in your Porsche I expect he just had bigger balls and/or was more reckless.
Edited by Crumpet on Monday 15th January 09:35
I think a lot of it has to do with vehicle height. A lot of wide cars can be handled easier when you can see more, the driving position in a Porsche is quite low, so may feel wider. I haven't driven an M2.
kambites said:
Krikkit said:
Isn't part of it related to performance requirements?
The M2 is very much a car defined and benchmarked for its grip, hence a wide axle setup is favourable. Same with all the "fast" models of smaller cars - widen the track withwider wheels = increase in grip.
It's not the absolute track width which matters there, it's the ratio of the width to the height of the centre of gravity. I don't know how the CoG of something like an M2 compares to, say, an E30 M3? The M2 is very much a car defined and benchmarked for its grip, hence a wide axle setup is favourable. Same with all the "fast" models of smaller cars - widen the track withwider wheels = increase in grip.
It's certainly part of what's pushed modern SUVs up to quite such ridiculous widths.
Would be interesting to find out though.
jimPH said:
The point is, that Porsche isn't wide by today's standards, in fact a car with less power that is considered to be compact by today's standards, is actually even bigger. The Porsche felt wide enough.
I think a lot of it has to do with vehicle height. A lot of wide cars can be handled easier when you can see more, the driving position in a Porsche is quite low, so may feel wider. I haven't driven an M2.
This.I think a lot of it has to do with vehicle height. A lot of wide cars can be handled easier when you can see more, the driving position in a Porsche is quite low, so may feel wider. I haven't driven an M2.
It's easier to hoon a ford transit than a sports car because you can gauge the width and see around you.
Hence why a 205 is so much fun. Good view of what's coming and a zingy engine.
In most modern cars, the width is for two reasons:
1) Grip (can't have the new model slower round the N'ring than the old one)
2) Crash Safety. Have a look at how thick the doors, pillars are, and how far inboard you sit. This is for a very good reason!
A Caterham has a tiny T/tunnel because it has the transmission out of a sewing machine, and the exhaust is outboard, and you sit, pretty much with your hip bone touching the outer skin of the car!
A modern BMW, packages a decent sized engine well back (meaning flywheel and exhaust and inlet are wide, a transmission that has a load of gears and can handle 600Nm of torque. An exhaust system that means you can have 600bhp yet pass a drive by noise test,enough exhaust aftertreatment (CAT/DPF etc) to produce tailpipe emissions so low they were thought impossible as little as 10 years ago, enough sound proofing to make the cabin very quiet, and of course a nice chunk large diameter propshaft!
You'd have to be a bit synaptic-ally challenged to call it badly packaged! In fact, like all modern cars, it's BRILLIANTLY packaged, it's just packaged to push handling and performance up and over absolute cabin space, compared to say a fwd car, where cabin space is prioritised over performance (which is why FWD cars were invented remember....)
1) Grip (can't have the new model slower round the N'ring than the old one)
2) Crash Safety. Have a look at how thick the doors, pillars are, and how far inboard you sit. This is for a very good reason!
A Caterham has a tiny T/tunnel because it has the transmission out of a sewing machine, and the exhaust is outboard, and you sit, pretty much with your hip bone touching the outer skin of the car!
A modern BMW, packages a decent sized engine well back (meaning flywheel and exhaust and inlet are wide, a transmission that has a load of gears and can handle 600Nm of torque. An exhaust system that means you can have 600bhp yet pass a drive by noise test,enough exhaust aftertreatment (CAT/DPF etc) to produce tailpipe emissions so low they were thought impossible as little as 10 years ago, enough sound proofing to make the cabin very quiet, and of course a nice chunk large diameter propshaft!
You'd have to be a bit synaptic-ally challenged to call it badly packaged! In fact, like all modern cars, it's BRILLIANTLY packaged, it's just packaged to push handling and performance up and over absolute cabin space, compared to say a fwd car, where cabin space is prioritised over performance (which is why FWD cars were invented remember....)
Max_Torque said:
A Caterham has a tiny T/tunnel because it has the transmission out of a sewing machine
A very high proportion use Ford Type 9s, which were used in most 80s/90s Ford RWD stuff, right up to 2.9 v6s in the Sierra and Scorpio. More modern ones use MX5 boxes or Quaife 6spds.Max_Torque said:
You'd have to be a bit synaptic-ally challenged to call it badly packaged! In fact, like all modern cars, it's BRILLIANTLY packaged, it's just packaged to push handling and performance up and over absolute cabin space
That seems to be a bit of a redefinition of the usual meaning of packaging...Max_Torque said:
compared to say a fwd car, where cabin space is prioritised over performance (which is why FWD cars were invented remember....)
Oh, how short memories are, and how effectively the Germans have reinvented the (wrong driven) wheel...FWD was popularised because not only did it allow better packaging, but because it was a league ahead of the RWD vehicles of the time - 1930s, remember... It's only with the very expensive, bulky and complicated multi-link rear ends on more recent BMWs and Mercs that RWD has gained the current rep - Merc and BMW were still using 1960s low-tech semi-trailing arm designs well into the 80s and even the 90s (E36 used multi-link, but the compact used the older setup). Even as recently as the 90s, the Mondeo was hailed as a massive leap forward because it ditched the Sierra's ancient low-tech semi-trailing arm RWD.
I read somewhere (could have just been theory, but it's a good one) that manufacturers make cars bigger as that model will grow with your requirements.
So, early 20s VW golf guy likes his GTi, then has a family so mid 20s golf guy needs something a bit bigger for all his baby stuff, just as new bigger golf comes out. So he upgrades, and on it goes until he's in his mid 40s and is now comfort-guy. Golf has grown further and now more refined, so.he buys another.
My theory to follow on from this is that a model will then get retired after that.generation has done with it. Ford Granada, vauxhall sententa and Carlton etc. Other models simply grow into their space. Mondeo now as big as Granada and it will eventually balloon out of popularity. The focus will replace it and the models will move up. The tiny Ford Ka is already much bigger than the original fiesta. Eventually we will have a new smaller-than-Ka launched as the Ka becomes the Fiesta that us oldies know as "the small car".
Some cars are too big though - the panamera is to long to put in a normal garage. That's a lot of length!
So, early 20s VW golf guy likes his GTi, then has a family so mid 20s golf guy needs something a bit bigger for all his baby stuff, just as new bigger golf comes out. So he upgrades, and on it goes until he's in his mid 40s and is now comfort-guy. Golf has grown further and now more refined, so.he buys another.
My theory to follow on from this is that a model will then get retired after that.generation has done with it. Ford Granada, vauxhall sententa and Carlton etc. Other models simply grow into their space. Mondeo now as big as Granada and it will eventually balloon out of popularity. The focus will replace it and the models will move up. The tiny Ford Ka is already much bigger than the original fiesta. Eventually we will have a new smaller-than-Ka launched as the Ka becomes the Fiesta that us oldies know as "the small car".
Some cars are too big though - the panamera is to long to put in a normal garage. That's a lot of length!
swisstoni said:
There is no reason for cars to get any wider IMHO. Roads aren't getting any wider. Humans are the same size. Only rarely are car parking spaces made wide enough.
It quite amazes me how few times cars clip each other as it is.
Pretty sure your average human has got wider too. I mean, "powerfully built'.It quite amazes me how few times cars clip each other as it is.
Paul O said:
I read somewhere (could have just been theory, but it's a good one) that manufacturers make cars bigger as that model will grow with your requirements.
So, early 20s VW golf guy likes his GTi, then has a family so mid 20s golf guy needs something a bit bigger for all his baby stuff, just as new bigger golf comes out. So he upgrades, and on it goes until he's in his mid 40s and is now comfort-guy. Golf has grown further and now more refined, so.he buys another.
My theory to follow on from this is that a model will then get retired after that.generation has done with it. Ford Granada, vauxhall sententa and Carlton etc. Other models simply grow into their space. Mondeo now as big as Granada and it will eventually balloon out of popularity. The focus will replace it and the models will move up. The tiny Ford Ka is already much bigger than the original fiesta. Eventually we will have a new smaller-than-Ka launched as the Ka becomes the Fiesta that us oldies know as "the small car".
Some cars are too big though - the panamera is to long to put in a normal garage. That's a lot of length!
There's a lot of truth in this. New model comes out, manufacturers brag about class leading leg room, increased boot size, etc. Each new model tends to be bigger and better than the last so they grow in size. As Paul said, look at Ford, all the cars grew, the Granada got dropped as the Mondeo got to the same size, the Ka was introduced because the Fiesta was no longer the small town car. With BMW, the 3 series got bigger, so they brought out the 3 series compact and then the 1 series, The current golf is 19cm wider then the original etc etcSo, early 20s VW golf guy likes his GTi, then has a family so mid 20s golf guy needs something a bit bigger for all his baby stuff, just as new bigger golf comes out. So he upgrades, and on it goes until he's in his mid 40s and is now comfort-guy. Golf has grown further and now more refined, so.he buys another.
My theory to follow on from this is that a model will then get retired after that.generation has done with it. Ford Granada, vauxhall sententa and Carlton etc. Other models simply grow into their space. Mondeo now as big as Granada and it will eventually balloon out of popularity. The focus will replace it and the models will move up. The tiny Ford Ka is already much bigger than the original fiesta. Eventually we will have a new smaller-than-Ka launched as the Ka becomes the Fiesta that us oldies know as "the small car".
Some cars are too big though - the panamera is to long to put in a normal garage. That's a lot of length!
TooMany2cvs said:
Max_Torque said:
A Caterham has a tiny T/tunnel because it has the transmission out of a sewing machine
A very high proportion use Ford Type 9s, which were used in most 80s/90s Ford RWD stuff, right up to 2.9 v6s in the Sierra and Scorpio. More modern ones use MX5 boxes or Quaife 6spds.Max_Torque said:
You'd have to be a bit synaptic-ally challenged to call it badly packaged! In fact, like all modern cars, it's BRILLIANTLY packaged, it's just packaged to push handling and performance up and over absolute cabin space
That seems to be a bit of a redefinition of the usual meaning of packaging...Max_Torque said:
compared to say a fwd car, where cabin space is prioritised over performance (which is why FWD cars were invented remember....)
Oh, how short memories are, and how effectively the Germans have reinvented the (wrong driven) wheel...FWD was popularised because not only did it allow better packaging, but because it was a league ahead of the RWD vehicles of the time - 1930s, remember... It's only with the very expensive, bulky and complicated multi-link rear ends on more recent BMWs and Mercs that RWD has gained the current rep - Merc and BMW were still using 1960s low-tech semi-trailing arm designs well into the 80s and even the 90s (E36 used multi-link, but the compact used the older setup). Even as recently as the 90s, the Mondeo was hailed as a massive leap forward because it ditched the Sierra's ancient low-tech semi-trailing arm RWD.
I'm loving 2CV schooling a professional automotive engineer on this stuff.
Up next: "Granny - does she really know how to suck eggs? We find out."
I sat in a AMG GTR recently. fk me you couldn't possibly live with it on a B road in the UK.
Ignoring the preposterously long bonnet that makes it very hard to see the end of the thing! It's SO wide it's not even funny. And as above car parks might be challenging.
Probably fine in Germany or the US. But a 991RS just doesn't feel as wieldy so I can see them losing sales to Porshce
Hell, a Audi S8 doesn't feel so hard to place!
k me you couldn't possibly live with it on a B road in the UK. Ignoring the preposterously long bonnet that makes it very hard to see the end of the thing! It's SO wide it's not even funny. And as above car parks might be challenging.
Probably fine in Germany or the US. But a 991RS just doesn't feel as wieldy so I can see them losing sales to Porshce
Hell, a Audi S8 doesn't feel so hard to place!
Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff