Giulia. New segment leader? Would you buy one?
Discussion
Put em up!DoubleD said:
urquattroGus said:
Most people don't have the balls to buy one.
Ha ha its not a bare knuckle fight, its just a car.My local Alfa dealers were useless sorting a test drive and px offer on my R8. I might have jumped in had they not made it frustrating and time consuming.
I'm still watching prices and they are now from £49k used already and £55k will get one with say 2k miles on it. That's a massive saving and very tempting as a next car.
Wills2 said:
Rawwr said:
RobM77 said:
Absolutely. Plus a direct drive, without a layer of mush between your right foot and the wheels (although admittedly the latest ZF does lock the torque converter when in gear), and the ability to think ahead and prepare the car for a corner and then control the car through the corner - no auto box knows what's coming up next! Keep em for wafting is what I say, that's what they're best at.
the more companies try to be clever and anticipate / handle these kinds of decisions, the more bland the car - it is like a pianist sitting down to a grand piano and finding that all they have to do is press play on the pre-recorded tunes
Unfortunately I can only speak hypothetically but I would certainly give one a try. It's a new car so if it turns out to be plagued with unreliability issues it gets sent back. However the sad truth of the matter is that by the time I eventually get my hands on one it'll be at SOTW prices and people on hypernet forums will be calling them the epitome of 'counselcharvy'.
Is it the segment leader? No - because Alfa will never be able to match Merc and BM for volume and sales, but will it stir up interest in Alfa Romeo and indeed Italian cars in general again after a couple of decades where they went from being ubiquitous to practically non-existent in this country, probably yes.
If they can keep the build quality and after-sales .service on-point then it certainly sees the start of a return to form for Alfa. Back to creating cars that people can get really excited about as opposed to looking at them, and sighing "oh, well I suppose it's quite nice" then go back to buying German or Japanese again.
Is it the segment leader? No - because Alfa will never be able to match Merc and BM for volume and sales, but will it stir up interest in Alfa Romeo and indeed Italian cars in general again after a couple of decades where they went from being ubiquitous to practically non-existent in this country, probably yes.
If they can keep the build quality and after-sales .service on-point then it certainly sees the start of a return to form for Alfa. Back to creating cars that people can get really excited about as opposed to looking at them, and sighing "oh, well I suppose it's quite nice" then go back to buying German or Japanese again.
corozin said:
I can't imagine for a minute that the Alfa is selling even a fraction of the numbers that either BMW, Mercedes, VW or Audi are for this size of car. For one thing, Alfa don't manufacture more than a fraction of the volume compared to the others
This is very true, however Alfa really need to get back to the UK sales levels they had in the 156 era (or better) if they don’t they will be in deep do-da. Giulia isn’t nearly enough, they are pinning their hopes on Stelvio and another SUV, whilst hoping to eek the Giulietta out long enough to help.akirk said:
Wills2 said:
Rawwr said:
RobM77 said:
Absolutely. Plus a direct drive, without a layer of mush between your right foot and the wheels (although admittedly the latest ZF does lock the torque converter when in gear), and the ability to think ahead and prepare the car for a corner and then control the car through the corner - no auto box knows what's coming up next! Keep em for wafting is what I say, that's what they're best at.the more companies try to be clever and anticipate / handle these kinds of decisions, the more bland the car - it is like a pianist sitting down to a grand piano and finding that all they have to do is press play on the pre-recorded tunes
t and nobody physically capable of changing gear who liked driving went for them). Given that the gearbox doesn't make a car noisier or less refined, why not have that joy of control that a manual gearbox gives you in a sports saloon? Why limit it to sports cars? When I see a B road, I want to enjoy the drive. As I said though, if you want to waft along, buy an auto. I don't. The problem I have with Alfa is they don't give us that choice with the Giulia.RobM77 said:
akirk said:
Wills2 said:
Rawwr said:
RobM77 said:
Absolutely. Plus a direct drive, without a layer of mush between your right foot and the wheels (although admittedly the latest ZF does lock the torque converter when in gear), and the ability to think ahead and prepare the car for a corner and then control the car through the corner - no auto box knows what's coming up next! Keep em for wafting is what I say, that's what they're best at.the more companies try to be clever and anticipate / handle these kinds of decisions, the more bland the car - it is like a pianist sitting down to a grand piano and finding that all they have to do is press play on the pre-recorded tunes
t and nobody physically capable of changing gear who liked driving went for them). Given that the gearbox doesn't make a car noisier or less refined, why not have that joy of control that a manual gearbox gives you in a sports saloon? Why limit it to sports cars? When I see a B road, I want to enjoy the drive. As I said though, if you want to waft along, buy an auto. I don't. The problem I have with Alfa is they don't give us that choice with the Giulia.
if you are in a straight line / don't wish to actively drive the car, then an auto is great - I wouldn't have a manual version of my RR - but in a car I want to drive an auto compromises it
RobM77 said:
You're both surely referring to the gearboxes' abilities to predict what's coming next in a straight line (i.e. an accelerating driver in 3rd will likely need 4th next, and vice versa). That wasn't the point I was making! In fact it was the very opposite. That's one of the main problems I have with auto boxes - let's say you want to enjoy a corner at 3-4k revs in 3rd gear, but the auto box thinks you should be in 4th or even 5th - annoying! Then you start to accelerate from the apex onwards, when the auto box shuffles down a gear mid corner to give you the torque you need (it probably thinks you were stuck behind a tractor and are now trying to overtake it) - a complete and utter mess. This is why, as far as I know, no purpose built racing car has ever had an automatic gearbox, and certainly no good driver's cars either (some, like the NSX, had auto options, but they were st and nobody physically capable of changing gear who liked driving went for them). Given that the gearbox doesn't make a car noisier or less refined, why not have that joy of control that a manual gearbox gives you in a sports saloon? Why limit it to sports cars? When I see a B road, I want to enjoy the drive. As I said though, if you want to waft along, buy an auto. I don't. The problem I have with Alfa is they don't give us that choice with the Giulia.
The Porsche one (or is it Mercedes?) uses GPS, elevation and map information to pick the best gears. Don't get me wrong, I'll always prefer a manual and it's little to do with performance. I just like the interaction and the way it takes a lot of skill to be ultra smooth with it. You can also do things with a clutch pedal, which are sometimes handy in getting a car to turn (at the expensive of a bit of clutch wear) t and nobody physically capable of changing gear who liked driving went for them). Given that the gearbox doesn't make a car noisier or less refined, why not have that joy of control that a manual gearbox gives you in a sports saloon? Why limit it to sports cars? When I see a B road, I want to enjoy the drive. As I said though, if you want to waft along, buy an auto. I don't. The problem I have with Alfa is they don't give us that choice with the Giulia.I think the technology behind a lot of non-manuals is really impressive and these days is pretty much flawless for the most part but I feel like a lot of people either miss or confuse the separation between being really fast and being really enjoyable. Take an average, MoRish sports car like a Cayman, one with PDK and one with a manual. If I wanted to set the quickest possible laptime I could muster, I'd be all over that PDK but if I wanted a more involving drive and something I personally find more enjoyable, I'd take the manual. As I prefer fun to speed, I'm going to take the manual every time.
Someone asked earlier in the thread if the Performante and Speciale were boring cars and no, they're not boring cars but I'd argue they'd be more fun, more involving and offer a more tactile, pleasing experience with a manual gearbox. Just a shame it's not an option.
akirk said:
No - I am supporting your point of view
if you are in a straight line / don't wish to actively drive the car, then an auto is great - I wouldn't have a manual version of my RR - but in a car I want to drive an auto compromises it
Sorry, I was agreeing with you and replying to the two above you. if you are in a straight line / don't wish to actively drive the car, then an auto is great - I wouldn't have a manual version of my RR - but in a car I want to drive an auto compromises it
Rawwr said:
RobM77 said:
You're both surely referring to the gearboxes' abilities to predict what's coming next in a straight line (i.e. an accelerating driver in 3rd will likely need 4th next, and vice versa). That wasn't the point I was making! In fact it was the very opposite. That's one of the main problems I have with auto boxes - let's say you want to enjoy a corner at 3-4k revs in 3rd gear, but the auto box thinks you should be in 4th or even 5th - annoying! Then you start to accelerate from the apex onwards, when the auto box shuffles down a gear mid corner to give you the torque you need (it probably thinks you were stuck behind a tractor and are now trying to overtake it) - a complete and utter mess. This is why, as far as I know, no purpose built racing car has ever had an automatic gearbox, and certainly no good driver's cars either (some, like the NSX, had auto options, but they were st and nobody physically capable of changing gear who liked driving went for them). Given that the gearbox doesn't make a car noisier or less refined, why not have that joy of control that a manual gearbox gives you in a sports saloon? Why limit it to sports cars? When I see a B road, I want to enjoy the drive. As I said though, if you want to waft along, buy an auto. I don't. The problem I have with Alfa is they don't give us that choice with the Giulia.
The Porsche one (or is it Mercedes?) uses GPS, elevation and map information to pick the best gears. Don't get me wrong, I'll always prefer a manual and it's little to do with performance. I just like the interaction and the way it takes a lot of skill to be ultra smooth with it. You can also do things with a clutch pedal, which are sometimes handy in getting a car to turn (at the expensive of a bit of clutch wear) t and nobody physically capable of changing gear who liked driving went for them). Given that the gearbox doesn't make a car noisier or less refined, why not have that joy of control that a manual gearbox gives you in a sports saloon? Why limit it to sports cars? When I see a B road, I want to enjoy the drive. As I said though, if you want to waft along, buy an auto. I don't. The problem I have with Alfa is they don't give us that choice with the Giulia.I think the technology behind a lot of non-manuals is really impressive and these days is pretty much flawless for the most part but I feel like a lot of people either miss or confuse the separation between being really fast and being really enjoyable. Take an average, MoRish sports car like a Cayman, one with PDK and one with a manual. If I wanted to set the quickest possible laptime I could muster, I'd be all over that PDK but if I wanted a more involving drive and something I personally find more enjoyable, I'd take the manual. As I prefer fun to speed, I'm going to take the manual every time.
Someone asked earlier in the thread if the Performante and Speciale were boring cars and no, they're not boring cars but I'd argue they'd be more fun, more involving and offer a more tactile, pleasing experience with a manual gearbox. Just a shame it's not an option.
I really like them and would be interested in getting one, I enjoy having an auto for my daily commute / normal driving and something with the power / fun of the Q would be perfectly suited to replace a line of extremely dull MBs (not 1 problem though); but for my sports car I will 100% stick to manual, I am not bothered about being the fastest (I'd have bought a GTR), I enjoy the engagement and involvement!
I drive the QV everyday and the Auto is great fun and suits the car.
At weekends I can drive my TVR or 60's alfa, both with manual boxes.
Would I want a manual in the Giulia QV, No.
I use it everyday and that can include heavy traffic.
The large paddles and snappy response mean you never feel short changed, and the shorter gearing helps acceleration, with a taller overdrive for economy.
The power and flexibility is always there, it's engaging, composed and comfortable.
If I want to go for it more then i rises to the occasion with the flick of a switch.
Reviews of the LHD manual say it isn't the best box anyway.
At weekends I can drive my TVR or 60's alfa, both with manual boxes.
Would I want a manual in the Giulia QV, No.
I use it everyday and that can include heavy traffic.
The large paddles and snappy response mean you never feel short changed, and the shorter gearing helps acceleration, with a taller overdrive for economy.
The power and flexibility is always there, it's engaging, composed and comfortable.
If I want to go for it more then i rises to the occasion with the flick of a switch.
Reviews of the LHD manual say it isn't the best box anyway.
urquattroGus said:
I use it everyday and that can include heavy traffic.
I think I mentioned this earlier, but I should point out to go alongside my defence of the manual gearbox that I virtually never drive in towns (about 30 minutes once a year perhaps) and very rarely in queues. If I lived or worked in a town and I drove, then obviously my preference for an auto would grow (especially seeing as I have a nerve problem with my left leg which means using a clutch in traffic causes me pain).akirk said:
but no car / technology can know what is coming up next, AND how the driver wishes to drive it...
the more companies try to be clever and anticipate / handle these kinds of decisions, the more bland the car - it is like a pianist sitting down to a grand piano and finding that all they have to do is press play on the pre-recorded tunes
This... the more companies try to be clever and anticipate / handle these kinds of decisions, the more bland the car - it is like a pianist sitting down to a grand piano and finding that all they have to do is press play on the pre-recorded tunes
I think the ZF-8 is a very good gearbox (not as exciting as the 6sp Manual) it is still quite an easy box to fool. You can get it in the wrong gear quite easily, its quicker to get out of it but it's not very good at predicting things.
This was on a 228i I rented in California, if you mashed the pedal to accelerate from about 35ish, the gearbox was very lethargic as it thought higher gears were appropriate for the speed. It took a second or two after mashing the go pedal before it realised you wanted power and dropped down a few cogs. Basically you'd have to flick down a few gears manually before overtaking which defeats the purpose of a predictive automatic.
My problem with a ZF-8 on the 228i is that it doesn't feel like there are any differences between the gears, even in it's sportiest mode... Great if you want a smooth, seamless shift in D, terrible if you want a spirited drive in S+. The ZF-8 is definitely geared towards fuel efficiency (which I'm not bemoaning, that's what most of their customers want).
RobM77 said:
urquattroGus said:
I use it everyday and that can include heavy traffic.
I think I mentioned this earlier, but I should point out to go alongside my defence of the manual gearbox that I virtually never drive in towns (about 30 minutes once a year perhaps) and very rarely in queues. If I lived or worked in a town and I drove, then obviously my preference for an auto would grow (especially seeing as I have a nerve problem with my left leg which means using a clutch in traffic causes me pain).I like brutal sports cars though, if anything I wish the clutch in the M240i was heavier and the throw shorter (my two previous cars were a Z4 3.0i and a Nissan 200sx S15, you really had to manhandle those) but understand why BMW went with the softer and easier clutch/transmission options.
Edited by captain_cynic on Friday 19th January 11:00
RobM77 said:
akirk said:
No - I am supporting your point of view
if you are in a straight line / don't wish to actively drive the car, then an auto is great - I wouldn't have a manual version of my RR - but in a car I want to drive an auto compromises it
Sorry, I was agreeing with you and replying to the two above you. if you are in a straight line / don't wish to actively drive the car, then an auto is great - I wouldn't have a manual version of my RR - but in a car I want to drive an auto compromises it
captain_cynic said:
akirk said:
but no car / technology can know what is coming up next, AND how the driver wishes to drive it...
the more companies try to be clever and anticipate / handle these kinds of decisions, the more bland the car - it is like a pianist sitting down to a grand piano and finding that all they have to do is press play on the pre-recorded tunes
This... the more companies try to be clever and anticipate / handle these kinds of decisions, the more bland the car - it is like a pianist sitting down to a grand piano and finding that all they have to do is press play on the pre-recorded tunes
I think the ZF-8 is a very good gearbox (not as exciting as the 6sp Manual) it is still quite an easy box to fool. You can get it in the wrong gear quite easily, its quicker to get out of it but it's not very good at predicting things.
This was on a 228i I rented in California, if you mashed the pedal to accelerate from about 35ish, the gearbox was very lethargic as it thought higher gears were appropriate for the speed. It took a second or two after mashing the go pedal before it realised you wanted power and dropped down a few cogs. Basically you'd have to flick down a few gears manually before overtaking which defeats the purpose of a predictive automatic.
My problem with a ZF-8 on the 228i is that it doesn't feel like there are any differences between the gears, even in it's sportiest mode... Great if you want a smooth, seamless shift in D, terrible if you want a spirited drive in S+. The ZF-8 is definitely geared towards fuel efficiency (which I'm not bemoaning, that's what most of their customers want).
RobM77 said:
urquattroGus said:
I use it everyday and that can include heavy traffic.
I think I mentioned this earlier, but I should point out to go alongside my defence of the manual gearbox that I virtually never drive in towns (about 30 minutes once a year perhaps) and very rarely in queues. If I lived or worked in a town and I drove, then obviously my preference for an auto would grow (especially seeing as I have a nerve problem with my left leg which means using a clutch in traffic causes me pain).I like brutal sports cars though, if anything I wish the clutch in the M240i was heavier and the throw shorter (my two previous cars were a Z4 3.0i and a Nissan 200sx S15, you really had to manhandle those) but understand why BMW went with the softer and easier clutch/transmission options.
Edited by captain_cynic on Friday 19th January 11:00
I agree with everything you say there. Yes, sadly my leg problem gets in the way now. Before my leg injury I could drive a manual in traffic without an issue, although I did understand the preference for autos in town dwellers.Rawwr said:
The Porsche one (or is it Mercedes?) uses GPS, elevation and map information to pick the best gears. Don't get me wrong, I'll always prefer a manual and it's little to do with performance. I just like the interaction and the way it takes a lot of skill to be ultra smooth with it. You can also do things with a clutch pedal, which are sometimes handy in getting a car to turn (at the expensive of a bit of clutch wear)
I think the technology behind a lot of non-manuals is really impressive and these days is pretty much flawless for the most part but I feel like a lot of people either miss or confuse the separation between being really fast and being really enjoyable. Take an average, MoRish sports car like a Cayman, one with PDK and one with a manual. If I wanted to set the quickest possible laptime I could muster, I'd be all over that PDK but if I wanted a more involving drive and something I personally find more enjoyable, I'd take the manual. As I prefer fun to speed, I'm going to take the manual every time.
Someone asked earlier in the thread if the Performante and Speciale were boring cars and no, they're not boring cars but I'd argue they'd be more fun, more involving and offer a more tactile, pleasing experience with a manual gearbox. Just a shame it's not an option.
well said - and agree with this...I think the technology behind a lot of non-manuals is really impressive and these days is pretty much flawless for the most part but I feel like a lot of people either miss or confuse the separation between being really fast and being really enjoyable. Take an average, MoRish sports car like a Cayman, one with PDK and one with a manual. If I wanted to set the quickest possible laptime I could muster, I'd be all over that PDK but if I wanted a more involving drive and something I personally find more enjoyable, I'd take the manual. As I prefer fun to speed, I'm going to take the manual every time.
Someone asked earlier in the thread if the Performante and Speciale were boring cars and no, they're not boring cars but I'd argue they'd be more fun, more involving and offer a more tactile, pleasing experience with a manual gearbox. Just a shame it's not an option.
Using GPS / elevation / etc. is extremely clever - but I think it is clever for the sake of being clever
a rough generalisation gives two types of drivers:
- those who really don't think about / care about which gear they are in - they driver slowly or fast and that is all that matters - perhaps this technology is a bit of overkill for them?
- those who do care and are very deliberate about their choice of gears - for them their choice will depend on how they are driving that day - bimbling / pushing on / etc. and the car can not and never will understand that...
and there are a number of issues with this approach as well:
- more complexity = goes wrong more
- more assumptions = gets it wrong more - anyone who has driven with satnav knows that it takes time to catch up with a new road - so you are in your fancy new RR and approaching a village you sweep around the excellent bypass - beautiful smooth empty tarmac - hurrah, you can catch that car ahead - but no, what is this? the car thinks that the bypass is not built, and assumes that you are going across a field - slows you down to 15 miles an hour, raises the suspension and puts the car in to mud mode
the reality is that whatever the claims of those who like technology it works in some, maybe even most case scenarios - but equally fails in a number - I would prefer to have my own input and get it right just that little bit more...With respect I don't think comparing to a 228i with ZF8 is valid.
Yes the Giulia uses a ZF8, one with a higher torque rating, but I used to think my M135i ZF8 was good but the Alfa is just much better.
There are fewer individual ECU's than some other cars which I think helps the whole chassis and drivetrain to act quicker, les CAN connections etc
I'm not saying CAN bus or a TCU is eliminated, but there are fewer links and they are faster acting, working better together etc
For me that pans out when you drive it, it's very composed and intuitive.
Yes the Giulia uses a ZF8, one with a higher torque rating, but I used to think my M135i ZF8 was good but the Alfa is just much better.
There are fewer individual ECU's than some other cars which I think helps the whole chassis and drivetrain to act quicker, les CAN connections etc
I'm not saying CAN bus or a TCU is eliminated, but there are fewer links and they are faster acting, working better together etc
For me that pans out when you drive it, it's very composed and intuitive.
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