Giulia. New segment leader? Would you buy one?

[Efbe]

I have waited for years and years to replace my alfa 159sw with the next model.

/bah, this isn't nearly as well styled as the 159, just looks like they have followed the bmw/audi fad of bulbous blandness.

[RobM77]

DoubleD said:

I also like autos, but in a car thats good for cruising. I just dont find them fun to use. But I do understand that some guys might find them fun.

I wonder if the 2nd hand market is stronger for manual cars?

Ares posted some figures earlier that suggested otherwise, but as far as I've always understood it, driver's/enthusiast's cars with manual boxes always sell better than autos. I think there was a PH article on it a while ago actually - the Ferrari market is notorious (almost all new ones were ordered auto, and for models with manual available, secondhand buyers usually request manual), although it may simply be rarity. It's certainly the case with the NSX and, at a lower budget, the 200SX. In defence of the auto though, they have come on a long way in the last few years so tha secondhand trend may be starting to change.

[MrGTI6]

Ares said:

The irony is, all the best sports cars have auto/DSG/PDK/etc boxes

Depends what you mean by 'best'. For me, the best sports cars are manual.

[Longstarestates1]

My mates uncle’s grandfathers,sisters best mate has one, not as much fun as an Mx-5 or 100bhp panda. My man maths says I can just about afford one without selling the mrs SQ7. I might just stick with my gt86 though.

[urquattroGus]

The NSX is the worst kind of example really, less power from the engine and an antiquated auto that completely blunts the car.

As you say, things have moved on

[RobM77]

MrGTI6 said:

Ares said:

The irony is, all the best sports cars have auto/DSG/PDK/etc boxes

Depends what you mean by 'best'. For me, the best sports cars are manual.

Yes, again it's subjective. However, it does actually seem like a strange thing to say. Many sports cars have an auto option, mainly for the American market, but out of the cars I would consider "the best sports cars", many come with just manual boxes and all have an option of a manual. I don't know of any automatic only true sports cars.

Lotus Elise: Manual only
Evora: Manual and Auto
Exige: Manual, but with a super rare auto available in recent years.
2-Eleven and 3-Eleven: Manual only
Cayman: Manual and PDK option
Boxster: Manual and PDK option
Caterham: Manual only
Honda S2000: Manual only
BAC Mono: Manual only
MX5: manual and auto
Ariel Atom: manual only
Ultima: Manual, but I suspect an auto is available with the American engines they use. I've never heard of one though.

I'm struggling to think of sports cars that are auto only. There are a few of what I would refer to as GTs and some supercars - perhaps that was what Ares was thinking of? They're not really sports cars though.

Plus, we mustn't forget that all racing cars are manual. I'm ready to be corrected, but I don't think I've ever heard of an automatic racing car.

Just to restate my original point - it's personal taste and it's good to have a choice.

[Shiv_P]

New TT(S/RS) ?
Yes I am prepared for the moaning that it's not a sports car it's a hairdressers car bullst bullst yada yada blah blah blah

[RobM77]

Shiv_P said:

New TT(S/RS) ?
Yes I am prepared for the moaning that it's not a sports car it's a hairdressers car bullst bullst yada yada blah blah blah

I'm not going to moan about it, and I realise these definitions are woolly, but a fixed head FWD/Haldex Audi is certainly not a sports car. I'm not criticising them, they're great cars, but they're really meant for an entirely different market to a true sports car like an Elise or MX5.

Edited by RobM77 on Saturday 20th January 20:31

[Ares]

akirk said:

Ares said:

akirk said:

Ares said:

akirk said:

exactly...
yes an auto is faster at the physical change but if even 1 in 10 changes result in the car saying no thanks then that is a very slow result and not acceptable... and I am yet to drive the auto which always does what I want / gets it right every time...

the perfect combination is when driver and car work together as one, not when they are battling each other...

What autos have you driven? Right from my 2007 330i, I've never had an auto that has done something other that what I would want?

Conversely, I do sometimes get 3rd/5th and 2nd/4th mixed up on Mrs Ares' MINI.

Lots I own two autos - classic RR in which it is perfect - doze off in the armchair seat while reading the paper and the car blunders on... / z3 in which it is not ideal (but car was v. cheap, so kept as a fun soft-top - would prefer a manual) - can stick it in 'manual mode' but car will still make independent choices and change at times... e.g. when slowing down it will drop back to second gear - you then go to do the same and find you push into first gear which you didn't want...

but in addition to those I have driven modern / old / computerised / non-computerised - pre-selectors / auto boxes / manual mode / no manual mode etc. and am still to find one which is anyway close to what I am choosing for it to do...

an example I have given above was the e63 AMG - every choice you make - even in manual - there was a feeling that it was deciding whether to let you or not - nowhere near as nice as a manual... as for modern 911s - there is a reason they build some cars with a manual gearbox - because the auto still doesn't offer the same feel

Ares said:

The scenario you describe does't happen though, except in efficiency modes. Stick a car in sport/dynamic/etc mode, and it will hold the gear if you are using any throttle.

And you have always got easily accessible manual control over and above if you want further control.

Until it chooses to change up / down

let's acknowledge - you like autos and think they are amazing - you can't see a reason not to have them, but I and others prefer to have manual - I have no doubt that for many drivers an auto is a far better choice - and it is great to see their capability improved so much - but if you want control / and to have input on what happens then there isn't yet an auto which matches a manual...

The autos you've driven are antiquated then.

Try a modern one, especially a modern one with different modes. You are welcome to derive mine if you are local to Cheshire. It will give every bit of holding a gear, responsiveness etc etc as a manual.

But it would be fruitless.

You like manuals, you prefer manuals. You just don't like autos. You're allowed to just not like them. That's all. To try and justify it with 'facts', and put science behind your dislike it won't work. You just don't like them.

I don't like Audi saloons. I could try and justify it having driven dozens, but at the end of the day, I just don't like them.
I likewise don't like estate cars. I could again argue the reasons for it, but it would be to no avail. I just don't like them.

Same thing with people irrational SUV hatred, or dislike of the French. Or people with Ginger hair.

I am not sure you actually bothered reading what I wrote
but maybe a brand new e63 AMG has an antiquated auto system?
maybe brand new 911s have a gearbox from the 60s?
maybe you just have an idea you believe in and don't bother reading replies?

And you are wrong - I do like Autos - I like them a lot - but for when I want to actually drive a car, then I want to be in control and don't want a computer that thinks it knows better and isn't - but I don't expect you to read that anyway

I don't try and justify anything - if you actually bothered reading what I wrote you will see that I totally accept that for many people an auto is ideal - e.g. those who might put a manual gearbox into the wrong gear?! but no, you make a whole bunch of inaccurate assumptions and keep on and on about them - for those of us on here 'defending' manual gearboxes - e.g. RobM77 and myself - we are careful to clarify that it is our personal preference and we fully accept that others may have a different perspective - for some reason though you don't seem to understand that two different people can have a different view and both be valid in that view for themselves - i.e. you are allowed to like autos and we are allowed to like manuals - there is no internet battle here, no having to prove one better than another - amazingly the world ticks along quite well with both in existence... but don't waste your effort telling us that we are wrong and that when we drive we would be better off with autos - and that an auto can do everything we want exactly like a manual - it doesn't - they are different and having spent a lot of time driving a large variety of cars including lots with brand new sophisticated autos, they do not allow me to drive as I want to - where I am in control and choose exactly what happens at what point... hence I choose to have both - as I said before (but you probably didn't bother reading it) I have a RR with an auto - perfect for it, especially off road, squirt and go - lazy driving - but the M5 I chose to buy one with a manual...

TLDR? You are wrong in your assumptions

I'll make the effort to ignore your sanctimonious tone.

I didn't read it as obvious that you'd driven the C63. IMO, having nearly bought an S last year, it's not the best example of an Auto box, but still very good. And you describe it having a 'feeling' that it was deciding whether to 'let you' or not, still at odds with your comment that no auto ever does what you want or gets it right every time.

Ditto the 911. I assume you mean the PDK? You talk of feel again, still at odds with your comment that it doesn't so what you want or get it right every time. Feel is wholly subjective, and if you dislike the auto in that application, it will never feel right regardless of how is actually performs.

You don't like performance autos. Fine. As said a million times. You don't like how they feel, how they look - but you are trying to justify it by saying "and I am yet to drive the auto which always does what I want / gets it right every time" - when what you mean is, you just don't like them.

I hope my reply is understandably without mirroring your seemingly patronising tone and repeated use of the ' ' smilie.

[Ares]

RobM77 said:

MrGTI6 said:

Ares said:

The irony is, all the best sports cars have auto/DSG/PDK/etc boxes

Depends what you mean by 'best'. For me, the best sports cars are manual.

Yes, again it's subjective. However, it does actually seem like a strange thing to say. Many sports cars have an auto option, mainly for the American market, but out of the cars I would consider "the best sports cars", many come with just manual boxes and all have an option of a manual. I don't know of any automatic only true sports cars.

Lotus Elise: Manual only
Evora: Manual and Auto
Exige: Manual, but with a super rare auto available in recent years.
2-Eleven and 3-Eleven: Manual only
Cayman: Manual and PDK option
Boxster: Manual and PDK option
Caterham: Manual only
Honda S2000: Manual only
BAC Mono: Manual only
MX5: manual and auto
Ariel Atom: manual only
Ultima: Manual, but I suspect an auto is available with the American engines they use. I've never heard of one though.

I'm struggling to think of sports cars that are auto only. There are a few of what I would refer to as GTs and some supercars - perhaps that was what Ares was thinking of? They're not really sports cars though.

Plus, we mustn't forget that all racing cars are manual. I'm ready to be corrected, but I don't think I've ever heard of an automatic racing car.

Just to restate my original point - it's personal taste and it's good to have a choice.

Struggling this think of sportscars with auto/pdk/etc....?

Ferrari
Lamborghini
McLaren
Porsche
Pagani
Aston Martin
Koenigsegg

Need more?

[SidewaysSi]

Ares said:

RobM77 said:

MrGTI6 said:

Ares said:

The irony is, all the best sports cars have auto/DSG/PDK/etc boxes

Depends what you mean by 'best'. For me, the best sports cars are manual.

Yes, again it's subjective. However, it does actually seem like a strange thing to say. Many sports cars have an auto option, mainly for the American market, but out of the cars I would consider "the best sports cars", many come with just manual boxes and all have an option of a manual. I don't know of any automatic only true sports cars.

Lotus Elise: Manual only
Evora: Manual and Auto
Exige: Manual, but with a super rare auto available in recent years.
2-Eleven and 3-Eleven: Manual only
Cayman: Manual and PDK option
Boxster: Manual and PDK option
Caterham: Manual only
Honda S2000: Manual only
BAC Mono: Manual only
MX5: manual and auto
Ariel Atom: manual only
Ultima: Manual, but I suspect an auto is available with the American engines they use. I've never heard of one though.

I'm struggling to think of sports cars that are auto only. There are a few of what I would refer to as GTs and some supercars - perhaps that was what Ares was thinking of? They're not really sports cars though.

Plus, we mustn't forget that all racing cars are manual. I'm ready to be corrected, but I don't think I've ever heard of an automatic racing car.

Just to restate my original point - it's personal taste and it's good to have a choice.

Struggling this think of sportscars with auto/pdk/etc....?

Ferrari
Lamborghini
McLaren
Porsche
Pagani
Aston Martin
Koenigsegg

Need more?

To be fair, those manufacturers need to be seen to have the latest tech so everyone can feel they are changing gear like their F1 heros. It is more about fashion.

Good gearboxes in the main but those cara tend not to appeal to me.

What about an Alfaholics GTA-R for example? Probably a finer and more involving car than that lot put together.

[Ares]

SidewaysSi said:

Ares said:

RobM77 said:

MrGTI6 said:

Ares said:

The irony is, all the best sports cars have auto/DSG/PDK/etc boxes

Depends what you mean by 'best'. For me, the best sports cars are manual.

Yes, again it's subjective. However, it does actually seem like a strange thing to say. Many sports cars have an auto option, mainly for the American market, but out of the cars I would consider "the best sports cars", many come with just manual boxes and all have an option of a manual. I don't know of any automatic only true sports cars.

Lotus Elise: Manual only
Evora: Manual and Auto
Exige: Manual, but with a super rare auto available in recent years.
2-Eleven and 3-Eleven: Manual only
Cayman: Manual and PDK option
Boxster: Manual and PDK option
Caterham: Manual only
Honda S2000: Manual only
BAC Mono: Manual only
MX5: manual and auto
Ariel Atom: manual only
Ultima: Manual, but I suspect an auto is available with the American engines they use. I've never heard of one though.

I'm struggling to think of sports cars that are auto only. There are a few of what I would refer to as GTs and some supercars - perhaps that was what Ares was thinking of? They're not really sports cars though.

Plus, we mustn't forget that all racing cars are manual. I'm ready to be corrected, but I don't think I've ever heard of an automatic racing car.

Just to restate my original point - it's personal taste and it's good to have a choice.

Struggling this think of sportscars with auto/pdk/etc....?

Ferrari
Lamborghini
McLaren
Porsche
Pagani
Aston Martin
Koenigsegg

Need more?

To be fair, those manufacturers need to be seen to have the latest tech so everyone can feel they are changing gear like their F1 heros. It is more about fashion.

Good gearboxes in the main but those cara tend not to appeal to me.

What about an Alfaholics GTA-R for example? Probably a finer and more involving car than that lot put together.

mmmm....I'm quite sure the ultimate sports car manufacturers use the best 'box for the job, rather than just to be seen to use the latest tech as a fashion statement?

[RobM77]

Ares said:

RobM77 said:

MrGTI6 said:

Ares said:

The irony is, all the best sports cars have auto/DSG/PDK/etc boxes

Depends what you mean by 'best'. For me, the best sports cars are manual.

Yes, again it's subjective. However, it does actually seem like a strange thing to say. Many sports cars have an auto option, mainly for the American market, but out of the cars I would consider "the best sports cars", many come with just manual boxes and all have an option of a manual. I don't know of any automatic only true sports cars.

Lotus Elise: Manual only
Evora: Manual and Auto
Exige: Manual, but with a super rare auto available in recent years.
2-Eleven and 3-Eleven: Manual only
Cayman: Manual and PDK option
Boxster: Manual and PDK option
Caterham: Manual only
Honda S2000: Manual only
BAC Mono: Manual only
MX5: manual and auto
Ariel Atom: manual only
Ultima: Manual, but I suspect an auto is available with the American engines they use. I've never heard of one though.

I'm struggling to think of sports cars that are auto only. There are a few of what I would refer to as GTs and some supercars - perhaps that was what Ares was thinking of? They're not really sports cars though.

Plus, we mustn't forget that all racing cars are manual. I'm ready to be corrected, but I don't think I've ever heard of an automatic racing car.

Just to restate my original point - it's personal taste and it's good to have a choice.

Struggling this think of sportscars with auto/pdk/etc....?

Ferrari
Lamborghini
McLaren
Porsche
Pagani
Aston Martin
Koenigsegg

Need more?

Yes, some sports cars would help The cars you have listed are mainly big, heavy toys for fat, rich men to cruise around city centres, and market demand has therefore led to the fitting of auto boxes. However, when those manufacturers make a true driver's car, like the McLaren F1 or 911 GT3, it's usually equally manual or auto and often manual only. The 991 GT3 bucked the trend with its PDK only release (which still isn't really a true auto, because it has no torque converter; it's actually a roboticised manual), but after the uproar that caused, Porsche backed down and this time last year announced it was coming with a manual option. Why do you think that was? And what about the driver's Porsche, the 911 R? Manual only.

I'm not deriding slush boxes, they're great at what they do, but to pretend they're the only choice for someone who loves driving is ridiculous. They're the premier choice for luxury cars and SUVs, yes, but not driver's cars or people who love driving. Find me an automatic Caterham, Elise, or in fact any racing car - I can't think of a single racing car that's an automatic - sequential, yes, but always still manual with a standard manual clutch and a dog box.

[Pooh]

I would certainly have one if I was in the market for a car of that type. I am tempted to get one soon but I can’t have anything too flashy when I turn up at a customers house.
With regard to build quality and reliability, my experience of modern Alfas is extremely good.
I thrashed my Brera S around Scottish backroads for 105k miles, it had no rattles or squeaks and I only had to replace one suspension bush and the cam chain at 96k miles.
My Giulietta was totally faultless for 50k miles.
My experience with the dealer in Perth was also pretty good.

[Ares]

RobM77 said:

Ares said:

Struggling this think of sportscars with auto/pdk/etc....?

Ferrari
Lamborghini
McLaren
Porsche
Pagani
Aston Martin
Koenigsegg

Need more?

Yes, some sports cars would help The cars you have listed are mainly big, heavy toys for fat, rich men to cruise around city centres, and market demand has therefore led to the fitting of auto boxes. However, when those manufacturers make a true driver's car, like the McLaren F1 or 911 GT3, it's usually equally manual or auto and often manual only. The 991 GT3 bucked the trend with its PDK only release (which still isn't really a true auto, because it has no torque converter; it's actually a roboticised manual), but after the uproar that caused, Porsche backed down and this time last year announced it was coming with a manual option. Why do you think that was? And what about the driver's Porsche, the 911 R? Manual only.

I'm not deriding slush boxes, they're great at what they do, but to pretend they're the only choice for someone who loves driving is ridiculous. They're the premier choice for luxury cars and SUVs, yes, but not driver's cars or people who love driving. Find me an automatic Caterham, Elise, or in fact any racing car - I can't think of a single racing car that's an automatic - sequential, yes, but always still manual with a standard manual clutch and a dog box.

I think you're losing the plot now. Sports cars don't get any more sports cars than those. They are not 'heavy toys designed for fast rich men??

...and you're saying that a 20yr old McLaren and a 10 yr old Porsche GT3 are the best Manual sports cars? (especially when modern versions have all gone auto?)

....and you're getting it the wrong way round. I'm not saying autos are the only choice for someone who loves driving....you are saying manuals are the only true choice for someone who loves driving.

[RobM77]

Ares said:

RobM77 said:

Ares said:

Struggling this think of sportscars with auto/pdk/etc....?

Ferrari
Lamborghini
McLaren
Porsche
Pagani
Aston Martin
Koenigsegg

Need more?

Yes, some sports cars would help The cars you have listed are mainly big, heavy toys for fat, rich men to cruise around city centres, and market demand has therefore led to the fitting of auto boxes. However, when those manufacturers make a true driver's car, like the McLaren F1 or 911 GT3, it's usually equally manual or auto and often manual only. The 991 GT3 bucked the trend with its PDK only release (which still isn't really a true auto, because it has no torque converter; it's actually a roboticised manual), but after the uproar that caused, Porsche backed down and this time last year announced it was coming with a manual option. Why do you think that was? And what about the driver's Porsche, the 911 R? Manual only.

I'm not deriding slush boxes, they're great at what they do, but to pretend they're the only choice for someone who loves driving is ridiculous. They're the premier choice for luxury cars and SUVs, yes, but not driver's cars or people who love driving. Find me an automatic Caterham, Elise, or in fact any racing car - I can't think of a single racing car that's an automatic - sequential, yes, but always still manual with a standard manual clutch and a dog box.

I think you're losing the plot now. Sports cars don't get any more sports cars than those. They are not 'heavy toys designed for fast rich men??

...and you're saying that a 20yr old McLaren and a 10 yr old Porsche GT3 are the best Manual sports cars? (especially when modern versions have all gone auto?)

....and you're getting it the wrong way round. I'm not saying autos are the only choice for someone who loves driving....you are saying manuals are the only true choice for someone who loves driving.

I think I've said this about 7 times now, but I'm saying that it's a valid request for a car/driving enthusiast to want a manual gearbox and that it's a shame that the Giulia doesn't offer it.

I absolutely stand by that statement: those cars you've listed are mainly bought as toys for fat cats, and that sort of person demands an automatic gearbox. True driver's cars like Caterhams and Elises have manual gearboxes; everyone knows that.

Now, for a four seater saloon, one could argue that an auto box is better suited, but my point is simply that it's nice to have the choice. By building a balanced rear drive chassis, Alfa will be attracting people who enjoy driving, and many of those people like manual gearboxes. That's all I'm saying: a choice is good because many people buying this sort of car will want a manual box.

[Rawwr]

Ares said:

Struggling this think of sportscars with auto/pdk/etc....?

Ferrari
Lamborghini
McLaren
Porsche
Pagani
Aston Martin
Koenigsegg

Need more?

Ferrari, Lamborghini, McLaren, Pagani and Koenigsegg don't make any sports cars, they all make supercars with the odd dash of a GT, where the goal is to use technology to make the car as fast as possible or as comfortable as possible. That is oft removed from the enjoyment of driving.

Porsche do make sports cars in the Boxster and Cayman and they're available with manual transmission. At the higher end, the GT3 is also available as a manual.

Aston Martin make a mix of GTs and supercars but are quite far removed from making sports cars.

[RobM77]

Rawwr said:

Ares said:

Struggling this think of sportscars with auto/pdk/etc....?

Ferrari
Lamborghini
McLaren
Porsche
Pagani
Aston Martin
Koenigsegg

Need more?

Ferrari, Lamborghini, McLaren, Pagani and Koenigsegg don't make any sports cars, they all make supercars with the odd dash of a GT, where the goal is to use technology to make the car as fast as possible or as comfortable as possible. That is oft removed from the enjoyment of driving.

Porsche do make sports cars in the Boxster and Cayman and they're available with manual transmission. At the higher end, the GT3 is also available as a manual.

Aston Martin make a mix of GTs and supercars but are quite far removed from making sports cars.

That's a much more tactful and accurate version of what I was trying to say

[Ares]

Rawwr said:

Ares said:

Struggling this think of sportscars with auto/pdk/etc....?

Ferrari
Lamborghini
McLaren
Porsche
Pagani
Aston Martin
Koenigsegg

Need more?

Ferrari, Lamborghini, McLaren, Pagani and Koenigsegg don't make any sports cars, they all make supercars with the odd dash of a GT, where the goal is to use technology to make the car as fast as possible or as comfortable as possible. That is oft removed from the enjoyment of driving.

Porsche do make sports cars in the Boxster and Cayman and they're available with manual transmission. At the higher end, the GT3 is also available as a manual.

Aston Martin make a mix of GTs and supercars but are quite far removed from making sports cars.

Thats the sound of splitting hairs.....

I really don't think the LaFerrari/488/Huracan/Peformante/918/720s/P1/etc are GT cars. If they are not the epitome of sportscars, I'm not sure what is?

Or are you saying that sports cars can't have more than X bhp or £X? To say proper sports cars have manual boxes because an MX5 has one and a LaFerrari doesn't is a bit daft,

[Rawwr]

Ares said:

To say proper sports cars have manual boxes because an MX5 has one and a LaFerrari doesn't is a bit daft,

Well I'm certainly glad I didn't say that, then.