Giulia. New segment leader? Would you buy one?

Giulia. New segment leader? Would you buy one?

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Ares

Original Poster:

11,000 posts

119 months

Thursday 18th January 2018
quotequote all
captain_cynic said:
Dr Gitlin said:
This really is a daft sentiment. The ZF 8HP is a bloody good gearbox, and one can derive a huge amount of pleasure driving the car manually with those lovely aluminium paddleshifters.
Not really, using paddle shifts are always like asking "mummy, may I have another gear please, I promise to clean my room later". Manuals are "I command thee into gear, hear me and obey".

Personally, I'd be with RobM77, were I in the market for a "compact exec" I'd seriously look at one if it came in a manual. If I wanted something as bland as an auto I'd get a boring Merc or Audi. It seems daft to get something that is meant to be exciting and a little bit nuts like an Alfa in such a boring configuration. Autos are for people too old for a manual or something the wife needs to drive (in which case I would consider the Alfa but I'm unmarried so it's sports cars for me, I know, its such a terrible lot in life).

I actually think Alfa is giving some sales to BMW and Audi by not offering a manual in the UK, Alfas are widely regarded as a petrolheads car and far less boring than the German equivalents.

Edited by captain_cynic on Thursday 18th January 11:51
Your analogy is a bit st. Sorry.

As is calling any car with an Auto, boring.

....and you realise that BMW sells way more autos than manuals don't you? That's because, aside from men that think not have a stick manual affects their masculinity, most drivers realise they are now way better wink

Ares

Original Poster:

11,000 posts

119 months

Thursday 18th January 2018
quotequote all
RobM77 said:
It's just an opinion, and one we're both entitled to. Would you call someone "daft" for not liking your favourite album? I certainly wouldn't.

I've driven all sorts of autos over the years (including the latest BMW ZF, which is superb) but I just don't like them. This is in spite of the fact that medically I should really have one, and traffic in a manual in particular puts me in a fair bit of pain. I think they suit something like a 530d or a 7 series, but not a sports saloon that you're supposed to enjoy threading down a B road. Note that mainland Europe get a LHD manual Giulia, it's just us Brits who are denied it - I suspect it's something to do with RHD and the cost of engineering it for that.

Edited by RobM77 on Thursday 18th January 11:51
It's actually to do with the fact it's st.

Every single person that has driven the manual vs the auto QV has said the auto is way better.

Cold

15,207 posts

89 months

Thursday 18th January 2018
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Lone voice here (and it just an opinion) but I don't think it's a good looking car. It's not even SZ pleasantly ugly. It's just generic Alfa and is unattractive because of that. This does not automatically mean its competitors are beacons of exterior design greatness.

But no, it would be way down the list of potential purchases would I be in the market for a company car as to me Alfa are in a similar segment as Fiat. Fine for what they are but rose tints only go so far.

Ares

Original Poster:

11,000 posts

119 months

Thursday 18th January 2018
quotequote all
RobM77 said:
yes

An auto in full auto mode doesn't know the difference between cornering, when you need revs for control, and a straight, when you want lack of revs for mpg.

An auto in 'manual mode' is still a slushy torque converter.

A double clutch box is much better, but they're extremely heavy.

A manual just solves the above problems immediately.
A good auto is everything and more though. Easy when you want easy, involved when you want involvement, quicker when you want quick, faster when you want fast. wink


Does remind me of when I tried to teach my then 75yr old grandfather how to drive the auto-boxed car he was about to buy. This was 20yrs ago when they were all st, 4 speed and just D, P, N and R as your options.
I showed him what happens when the car is in 'D'...it moves, creeps forward. Accelerate and it just keeps accelerating and changing gear. He set off on roads he knew, all was going fine until he came to a tighter corner, he wasn't slowing down. I had to shout 'you still need to brake' as we nearly hit the hedge. "I normally just use the gearbox to slow down on that corner" was his calm response.

RobM77

35,349 posts

233 months

Thursday 18th January 2018
quotequote all
Ares said:
As is calling any car with an Auto, boring.

....and you realise that BMW sells way more autos than manuals don't you? That's because, aside from men that think not have a stick manual affects their masculinity, most drivers realise they are now way better wink
Most drivers want boring and effortless, that's why autos are popular. An auto suits that perfectly. Even most drivers of performance cars don't actually enjoy or even understand any more than just the power of a performance car - handling and driving through corners is a niche interest, which is why manuals are a niche thing, I freely accept that.

Ares

Original Poster:

11,000 posts

119 months

Thursday 18th January 2018
quotequote all
captain_cynic said:
RobM77 said:
I think they suit something like a 530d or a 7 series, but not a sports saloon that you're supposed to enjoy threading down a B road.
This. Auto's are for comfortable cars rather than sporty ones, be it a family transport or a limousine.

I'd have an F-Type in a manual, but for an S-Type the auto is the best choice.

Edited by captain_cynic on Thursday 18th January 12:02
Just like all those comfortable Ferraris rolleyes

The irony is, all the best sports cars have auto/DSG/PDK/etc boxes

Ares

Original Poster:

11,000 posts

119 months

Thursday 18th January 2018
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J4CKO said:
I would have one, lovely grey one with a private plate round here but the driver looks proper dodgy wink
I've heard the same. I'd keep well away if I were you wink

otolith

55,899 posts

203 months

Thursday 18th January 2018
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Some people just enjoy working a manual gearbox. It's a part of the driving experience they enjoy. It doesn't matter how good the automatic is if it doesn't replicate that experience.

RobM77

35,349 posts

233 months

Thursday 18th January 2018
quotequote all
Ares said:
RobM77 said:
It's just an opinion, and one we're both entitled to. Would you call someone "daft" for not liking your favourite album? I certainly wouldn't.

I've driven all sorts of autos over the years (including the latest BMW ZF, which is superb) but I just don't like them. This is in spite of the fact that medically I should really have one, and traffic in a manual in particular puts me in a fair bit of pain. I think they suit something like a 530d or a 7 series, but not a sports saloon that you're supposed to enjoy threading down a B road. Note that mainland Europe get a LHD manual Giulia, it's just us Brits who are denied it - I suspect it's something to do with RHD and the cost of engineering it for that.

Edited by RobM77 on Thursday 18th January 11:51
It's actually to do with the fact it's st.

Every single person that has driven the manual vs the auto QV has said the auto is way better.
No, it's an opinion. Some people like autos, some manual. It's like FWD and RWD or turbo vs n/a - all opinions.

I also refuse to believe your second statement, unless you can provide evidence. There must be a reason the manual exists; surely it's not money saving at the QV's price point? I suspect Alfa's engineers knew some people would prefer it.

s m

23,164 posts

202 months

Thursday 18th January 2018
quotequote all
otolith said:
Some people just enjoy working a manual gearbox. It's a part of the driving experience they enjoy. It doesn't matter how good the automatic is if it doesn't replicate that experience.
Very true - with other people it's turbos ....or rear wheel drive....or something else

Ares

Original Poster:

11,000 posts

119 months

Thursday 18th January 2018
quotequote all
RobM77 said:
Ares said:
As is calling any car with an Auto, boring.

....and you realise that BMW sells way more autos than manuals don't you? That's because, aside from men that think not have a stick manual affects their masculinity, most drivers realise they are now way better wink
Most drivers want boring and effortless, that's why autos are popular. An auto suits that perfectly. Even most drivers of performance cars don't actually enjoy or even understand any more than just the power of a performance car - handling and driving through corners is a niche interest, which is why manuals are a niche thing, I freely accept that.
True. But those who want ultimate performance also want the auto/dsg/etc - because it gives ultimate performance. So what you are saying is the beige, middle of the road, average driver that likes driving wants the manual? wink

Same as when servo brakes came in, 'real' drivers didn't want it as it robbed the car of brake feel.

Dr Gitlin

2,561 posts

238 months

Thursday 18th January 2018
quotequote all
RobM77 said:
It's just an opinion, and one we're both entitled to. Would you call someone "daft" for not liking your favourite album? I certainly wouldn't.

I've driven all sorts of autos over the years (including the latest BMW ZF, which is superb) but I just don't like them. This is in spite of the fact that medically I should really have one, and traffic in a manual in particular puts me in a fair bit of pain. I think they suit something like a 530d or a 7 series, but not a sports saloon that you're supposed to enjoy threading down a B road. Note that mainland Europe get a LHD manual Giulia, it's just us Brits who are denied it - I suspect it's something to do with RHD and the cost of engineering it for that.

Edited by RobM77 on Thursday 18th January 11:51
Not just the UK, you can't get one over here in the US with three pedals either. BTW that BMW gearbox is the same one Alfa use. (I spent a very enjoyable half hour on Tuesday interviewing some of the ZF team for a forthcoming article on the 8HP.)

Dr Gitlin

2,561 posts

238 months

Thursday 18th January 2018
quotequote all
Ares said:
Couple of misnomers there. Plastics aren't st, there is just the odd bit that's a bit below par, but countered by plenty about the interior that's better.

And the infotainment isn't rubbish. It might not be quite up to BMW's iDrive, but I'd take it over the Merc.
The gear stick (in both QVs I've driven and the 2.0L) had some hard edges, as did the grab handles on the center console. But you know what? It doesn't matter. Neither does the lack of NVH. It all just adds to the character.

Merc's infotainment system is nothing to write home about (although the new MBUX that's debuting the A Class is almost on a par with Audi's latest MMI and Volvo's Sensus, which are probably the two best systems on the market right now. iDrive 6 is good, but it's not as good as either of those two.

cerb4.5lee

30,195 posts

179 months

Thursday 18th January 2018
quotequote all
otolith said:
Some people just enjoy working a manual gearbox. It's a part of the driving experience they enjoy. It doesn't matter how good the automatic is if it doesn't replicate that experience.
Completely this, I've had several Auto's and one dual clutch gearbox...and I love how easy they're to drive and they give a nice relaxed feel to a car...but I've never enjoyed using them though like I do a three pedal manual.

Ares

Original Poster:

11,000 posts

119 months

Thursday 18th January 2018
quotequote all
Dr Gitlin said:
Not just the UK, you can't get one over here in the US with three pedals either. BTW that BMW gearbox is the same one Alfa use. (I spent a very enjoyable half hour on Tuesday interviewing some of the ZF team for a forthcoming article on the 8HP.)
It is...but it's very different state of tune/set-up.

My last BMW (640d) had a great ZF8 box, hugely different from the 530d's ZF8 box I had before.

The Alfa's same ZF8 box feels more like a DSG - hence why some journalists have mistaken it for one when driving.

phil1979

3,540 posts

214 months

Thursday 18th January 2018
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If there was an estate version, I would already have it.

RobM77

35,349 posts

233 months

Thursday 18th January 2018
quotequote all
Ares said:
RobM77 said:
Ares said:
As is calling any car with an Auto, boring.

....and you realise that BMW sells way more autos than manuals don't you? That's because, aside from men that think not have a stick manual affects their masculinity, most drivers realise they are now way better wink
Most drivers want boring and effortless, that's why autos are popular. An auto suits that perfectly. Even most drivers of performance cars don't actually enjoy or even understand any more than just the power of a performance car - handling and driving through corners is a niche interest, which is why manuals are a niche thing, I freely accept that.
True. But those who want ultimate performance also want the auto/dsg/etc - because it gives ultimate performance. So what you are saying is the beige, middle of the road, average driver that likes driving wants the manual? wink

Same as when servo brakes came in, 'real' drivers didn't want it as it robbed the car of brake feel.
That's my point - this isn't about the performance of a performance car, it's about enjoying driving it. The two are different. If you like, an auto box is the first step on a spectrum that leads to cars like the Audi RS4. I'm going the other way on the spectrum towards cars like the original Elan or Caterham 7. Just because a car is a practical daily driver doesn't mean I want to abandon my love of driving - I still like some elements of that where possible. PAS and Servo brakes are mandatory on a car this heavy, but a manual box can still be done, so I'll take that when I can.

On servo brakes by the way, if the car's light enough to get away with it, then I much prefer 'natural' brakes to servo ones. It's why I chose the Elise 111S over the 111R. I feel the same about PAS and non-PAS.


Edited by RobM77 on Thursday 18th January 12:31

Ares

Original Poster:

11,000 posts

119 months

Thursday 18th January 2018
quotequote all
Dr Gitlin said:
The gear stick (in both QVs I've driven and the 2.0L) had some hard edges, as did the grab handles on the center console. But you know what? It doesn't matter. Neither does the lack of NVH. It all just adds to the character.
Gearstick is a weak area - although the carbon fibre shifter helps (when it fits...!). But there are no grab handles on the centre console...?

Alex_225

6,234 posts

200 months

Thursday 18th January 2018
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My uncle recently bought a Giulia Veloce which I got to drive just after he'd bought it.

Looks wise, I think it's quite striking and tidy looking. It's not actually a pretty car in my mind, not compared to some of the cars Alfa have built, even ones in the last 10 years or so.

It drove quite nicely, this model has 270bhp from a 2.0 turbo petrol with a 7 speed auto. To drive it felt I suppose like a hot hatch really, not bone shaking suspension but not rolling all over the place. It felt quite quick as well and the auto box was quick enough, although I preferred using the paddles but then I was just taking it for a blast not a day to day drive.

It's biggest let down for me was the interior. The dashboard felt quite cheap and the materials inside didn't feel premium. I guess it could pull this off if you love the looks so much and it's sporty enough for you but I didn't feel like it was £42k's worth of car when sat behind the wheel.

otolith

55,899 posts

203 months

Thursday 18th January 2018
quotequote all
Ares said:
Same as when servo brakes came in, 'real' drivers didn't want it as it robbed the car of brake feel.
The non-servo brakes on the S1 courtesy car I get when my S2 Elise is in for a service are much nicer than mine.