RE: PH Origins: Water injection
Discussion
50kg water injection system?
At least the one I installed, loosely based on a Aquamist 2c system, is more like 5kg. and that includes 3l of mix.
Would I go though the trouble to get a 120HP per ton car to 140HP per ton ? No, unless it is totally needed and there is no other solution.
Would I recommend WMI to someone without any mechanical sympathy? No!
"There is this red light in shape of a vintage oil can illuminated in my dash since two weeks or so and the car sounds odd..... Can you have a look?"
Can water or water methanol injection generate extra HP on a forced induction engine?
Yes, under the right circumstances. But not without proper mapping for it.
Can it be utilised to gain a lot? Yes. Even in tropical conditions? Yes.
If you just inject, and there are many ways on how not to do it, you actually lose power.
Why, because flame initiation and flame front development speed drop. It burns slower.
Adding methanol compensates for part of these effects, but does not eliminate them.
If you do not adapt at least ignition timing on a engine that now got WMI, you'll lose power.
And step away from thinking that cooling the intake air is the main effect. This is more of a side effect in most common installs.
If not done right, you'll actually drop change density despite the temperature drop leading to less power!
Again, depending on which problem you are addressing in a propulsion system, it can also be the intended main effect.
If you start a engine build from scratch, you commonly can avoid the need for WMI.
Running a Rover K in a Elise with a Rotrex C30-94 at its rev limit on track, I found properly implemented WMI works great.
Others got away without, but mine did just run and run and run.
Summary: great technology, but not 100% straight forward to take full advance from without proper planning ahead and analysing the situation.
At least the one I installed, loosely based on a Aquamist 2c system, is more like 5kg. and that includes 3l of mix.
Would I go though the trouble to get a 120HP per ton car to 140HP per ton ? No, unless it is totally needed and there is no other solution.
Would I recommend WMI to someone without any mechanical sympathy? No!
"There is this red light in shape of a vintage oil can illuminated in my dash since two weeks or so and the car sounds odd..... Can you have a look?"
Can water or water methanol injection generate extra HP on a forced induction engine?
Yes, under the right circumstances. But not without proper mapping for it.
Can it be utilised to gain a lot? Yes. Even in tropical conditions? Yes.
If you just inject, and there are many ways on how not to do it, you actually lose power.
Why, because flame initiation and flame front development speed drop. It burns slower.
Adding methanol compensates for part of these effects, but does not eliminate them.
If you do not adapt at least ignition timing on a engine that now got WMI, you'll lose power.
And step away from thinking that cooling the intake air is the main effect. This is more of a side effect in most common installs.
If not done right, you'll actually drop change density despite the temperature drop leading to less power!
Again, depending on which problem you are addressing in a propulsion system, it can also be the intended main effect.
If you start a engine build from scratch, you commonly can avoid the need for WMI.
Running a Rover K in a Elise with a Rotrex C30-94 at its rev limit on track, I found properly implemented WMI works great.
Others got away without, but mine did just run and run and run.
Summary: great technology, but not 100% straight forward to take full advance from without proper planning ahead and analysing the situation.
Interesting Article! We germans mean by 'interesting' very good indeed! 
I had a water injection fitted in my smart roadster back in 2009/2010. It worked very well and the engine was having peak power over a longer time period!
It was an easy to install aftermarket system.
Regards,
Robert
I had a water injection fitted in my smart roadster back in 2009/2010. It worked very well and the engine was having peak power over a longer time period!
It was an easy to install aftermarket system.
Regards,
Robert
Nanook said:
FWDRacer said:
In your highly enlightened handpicked scenario 
. 12bhp/tonne - imperceptible. Impact of a (liquid) 50kg mass in a 1-tonne car raising the CoG? Go and try it - stick a 50L drum in the passenger seat.
Adding mass isn't going to assist a car's ability to change direction. Especially if that mass can't be located low down inside the wheelbase.
You pointed out that it would adversely affect the power to weight ratio. I pointed out that you were wrong, so now you've changed your tune a bit . 12bhp/tonne - imperceptible. Impact of a (liquid) 50kg mass in a 1-tonne car raising the CoG? Go and try it - stick a 50L drum in the passenger seat.Adding mass isn't going to assist a car's ability to change direction. Especially if that mass can't be located low down inside the wheelbase.
Edited by FWDRacer on Tuesday 30th January 09:34
If you want to talk about imperceptible, do you notice your car handles better when the fuel tank is empty?
Really, what is your point? Do you have one?
Edited by Nanook on Tuesday 30th January 11:00
Nanook said:
FWDRacer said:
In your highly enlightened handpicked scenario . 12bhp/tonne - imperceptible. Impact of a (liquid) 50kg mass in a 1-tonne car raising the CoG? Go and try it - stick a 50L drum in the passenger seat.
Adding mass isn't going to assist a car's ability to change direction. Especially if that mass can't be located low down inside the wheelbase.
You pointed out that it would adversely affect the power to weight ratio. I pointed out that you were wrong, so now you've changed your tune a bit . 12bhp/tonne - imperceptible. Impact of a (liquid) 50kg mass in a 1-tonne car raising the CoG? Go and try it - stick a 50L drum in the passenger seat.Adding mass isn't going to assist a car's ability to change direction. Especially if that mass can't be located low down inside the wheelbase.
Edited by FWDRacer on Tuesday 30th January 09:34
If you want to talk about imperceptible, do you notice your car handles better when the fuel tank is empty?
Really, what is your point? Do you have one?
Edited by Nanook on Tuesday 30th January 11:00
Struggling to see the point either. An intercooler / chargecooler also adds mass to a car (say 10-15kg). We should avoid them too then..
Nanook said:
FWDRacer said:
Keep adding mass to your car - you crack on. I'll follow Chapman's alternative path. I dislike having to lug around 17L of Urea and can I tell when both that tank and the 65L fuel tank are empty. Damn right I can.
You're awfully good at putting forward stupid questions, and not so good at answering them.Wait, you're telling me you can tell when your 22kg worth of Urea is empty or full?
To you, a 12bhp/tonne difference is imperceptible, but you can feel 22kg in a 1850kg car. 1% of the mass, and you can feel it?
You're following the chapman philosophy, in your 1800kg+ diesel saloon car?
.... only the the aforementioned Diesel Saloon isn't my only car - but congratulations on the selective information you've gleaned to support your standpoint. Based on the other use of selective information, you missed out combined empty fuel and urea tank. That is over 80kg, closer to 5% and yep it is noticeable.
Perhaps the bucky has dimmed your senses
... Oh, and the argument. Don't worry you've won
Edited by FWDRacer on Tuesday 30th January 13:15
evilspike said:
The JDM Celica GT4 ST205 WRC (snazzy name!) had the water bag and plumbing installed at the factory for water injection into the intercooler, just needed activating.
I believe the RS Cosworth was the same, just needed connecting and turning on.
Only the Escort Cosworth AFAIK.I believe the RS Cosworth was the same, just needed connecting and turning on.
Lewis Kingston said:
SuperchargedVR6 said:
Horribly unreliable pumps and controllers at the time though. I would hope they've improved by now.
Thanks for the heads-up – I've been nosing around a few, so I'll keep an eye out for any recent reports. Wilksy288 said:
Swampy1982 said:
just a note for the author, enjoyed the article and seemingly provoked the best of PH replies and knowledge, rather than the usual bating, trolling and emotion.
More features/articles like this would be great.
I was just thinking the same too!More features/articles like this would be great.
Turbobanana said:
Yipper said:
Water injection can get you 1-20% extra power when used with a remap, but it can be a pain to fit and maintain and refill. Costs at least £500-1000 to buy and install professionally.
Quite, although I remember reading about a homemade system when I was a teenager (so years back...) that involved a washer bottle from a breaker full of water being fed into the carb (!) by some copper tubing wrapped around the exhaust manifold to turn the water to steam.Never tried it, unsurprisingly, but I often wonder if anyone ever did.
I ran a very simple / cheap set up with my supercharged MX5 many years ago.
Basically a £10 boost switch - to turn it on and open the solenoid
Free solenoid - removed from the charcoal canister
Washer bottle £10
Aquamist nozzle £15
One way valve £2
Once 2psi was hit, the solenoid opened and the washer bottle pump activated and sprayed water pre charger (not enough pressure to spray post charger)
I found that I could dial back ALL the retard I'd had to add which made a huge difference in power - in those days we worked on 2 degrees per pound of boost and I was running 10psi
On a hot day it was like adding another supercharger !
I stopped using it as I had concerns about the nozzle becoming blocked which would mean Det and a blown piston soon after and went with an intercooled setup.
SuperchargedVR6 said:
I've just looked at their website and I see they've dumped their own crappy pump, and switched to the American coke can style (and sized!) pumps that Snow and Devils Own use, so you should be OK.
Thank you – I'll keep an eye out for that set-up.Many thanks to everyone for their comments and insight, by the way – very much appreciated, as always.
Midshipracer said:
Water in itself kills power that's why there are 50/50 mix with meth to add ocatane, allowing formore aggressive timing and thereby more power
No it doesn't.It cools the air making it denser, it also allows you to add huge amounts of timing back in.
Methanol has it's benefits but on my MX5, water allowed 20 degrees of retard to be added back in - that's a HUGE amount.
If you mean that if you add lots of water and don't change the timing then obviously it's not going to help in the same way that adding too much petrol decreases power.
Midshipracer said:
Celica and Impreza just sprayed water on the intercooler. With a switch you just turn on
Water injection (well mine does anyway) is controlled by the ECU to come on only when certain conditions are met. For example boost pressure.
Water in itself kills power that's why there are 50/50 mix with meth to add ocatane, allowing formore aggressive timing and thereby more power
I run Aquamist in mine
The Celica ST205 WRC actually had a water injection nozzle with built in solenoid in the inlet manifold, shortly after the throttle plate. They also had a water spray system (3 nozzles IIRC) in the front bumper, ahead of the radiator for the water-air intercooler, which was similar to the IC water spray on a Subaru.Water injection (well mine does anyway) is controlled by the ECU to come on only when certain conditions are met. For example boost pressure.
Water in itself kills power that's why there are 50/50 mix with meth to add ocatane, allowing formore aggressive timing and thereby more power
I run Aquamist in mine
I've no idea if any of it was plumbed in correctly or easy to reactivate, but the WRC windscreen washer bottle did have a load of extra pumps & valves attached, & there was also an unused pin marked 'WI' on the PCB of the ECU.
Personally I like water injection. If you have an older turbo engine that's in anyway prone to detonation, a simple low volume system set to activate at X boost pressure is a cheap safety net.
Ran WI on my old MR2 turbo. Two coffee machine pumps and a piggy back into the ecu for RPM and throttle.
Used to just use the big bottles of Halfords screen wash (methanol mix I think), drill a hole in the cap and poke a filtered hose in.
All tucked behind the carpet in the boot.
Really used to keep the temps down, and also kept the inter cooler insides clean from oil.
Strangely, what ever colour the screen wash was, my flames used to get coloured too.
Worked with pink, blue and green ..
Used to just use the big bottles of Halfords screen wash (methanol mix I think), drill a hole in the cap and poke a filtered hose in.
All tucked behind the carpet in the boot.
Really used to keep the temps down, and also kept the inter cooler insides clean from oil.
Strangely, what ever colour the screen wash was, my flames used to get coloured too.
Worked with pink, blue and green ..
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