RE: Porsche confirms the death of diesel
Discussion
mrbarnett said:
Couldn't agree more. I get that diesels can be quite good these days, but I was always stunned to see people spending many thousands of pounds on premium cars - the Range Rover was always the example I chose - only to compromise the entire package in the interest of saving a few hundred quid a year on fuel. I just never got it...
What compromise? My car does twice the mpg of the petrol equivalent and goes twice the distance before needing a fill up. Also going to the petrol station is a pain and no one likes paying for fuel every 2-3 days a week, rich or not. It even sounds pretty good. In my eyes it was the petrol that was compromised tbh.Who knows, perhaps it's a psychological thing. If it was a toy\fun car, I wouldn't mind what the mpg was but I use it to plod around so it's one of the important factors I and many others base their work-a-day car buying criteria on.
I wouldn't have considered the petrol equivalent of my car tbh and judging by the fact that the majority of SUV's on the road are diesel, neither would a lot of others.
Edited by Guvernator on Wednesday 21st February 17:00
mrbarnett said:
Couldn't agree more. I get that diesels can be quite good these days, but I was always stunned to see people spending many thousands of pounds on premium cars - the Range Rover was always the example I chose - only to compromise the entire package in the interest of saving a few hundred quid a year on fuel. I just never got it...
Have you driven the most recent 4.4 and 3.0 diesels fitted to Range Rovers? They suit the car perfectly; you need a low revving torquey diesel in a big prestige vehicle. Mated to the ZF gearbox, you get refined effortless performance - no compromises at all in my opinion.I get that modern diesels are better than they used to be but if a car is just for running about in day to day why spend 70k on it. I suppose the answer is ‘because I can afford it and I don’t like stopping at petrol stations’.
Also, if you say all big prestige cars should be diesel, if money was no object, would you shun a rolls Royce phantom because it’s annoyingly not diesel and you’d have to keep stopping for fuel?
Also, if you say all big prestige cars should be diesel, if money was no object, would you shun a rolls Royce phantom because it’s annoyingly not diesel and you’d have to keep stopping for fuel?
Even if I didn't have a 911 in my garage and only had one car - I still don't think i'd loath diesels the way that a lot of folk seem to. The way they drive is still pleasurable in my eyes - it's just 'different' from the way petrol engines deliver their power. I've had periods of my life where I owned only a diesel car and I still enjoyed spirited drives in it.
I think I just admire them (modern ones) for being so fit for purpose and advanced considering what they were like when I was growing up (Ford Sierra 2.3D L anyone?). To me they're kind of cool because of this. I suspect that this makes me a saddo...
Incidentally I am not especially wealthy. I just happen to live in East Sussex where owning a garage isn't the exclusive preserve of millionaires.
I think I just admire them (modern ones) for being so fit for purpose and advanced considering what they were like when I was growing up (Ford Sierra 2.3D L anyone?). To me they're kind of cool because of this. I suspect that this makes me a saddo...
Incidentally I am not especially wealthy. I just happen to live in East Sussex where owning a garage isn't the exclusive preserve of millionaires.
Dale487 said:
Howard- said:
captain_beaky said:
I really don't understand why it's the done thing in the petrol head community to dislike diesels?
I consider myself to be a petrol head and have a 911 in the garage as my 'fun' car
Because not everyone has a 911 in the garage as their fun car. I consider myself to be a petrol head and have a 911 in the garage as my 'fun' car
Not everyone is that lucky - some can't even afford a garage let alone even the 911. (I know in some areas of London a garage would make 911R prices look reasonable)
Its only in the last 20-25 years that diesel moved more mainstream, before then it was mostly vans, proper 4x4s (weren't they all 25 years ago?), trucks, people who towed or people who did serious miles.
Guvernator said:
mrbarnett said:
Couldn't agree more. I get that diesels can be quite good these days, but I was always stunned to see people spending many thousands of pounds on premium cars - the Range Rover was always the example I chose - only to compromise the entire package in the interest of saving a few hundred quid a year on fuel. I just never got it...
What compromise? My car does twice the mpg of the petrol equivalent and goes twice the distance before needing a fill up. Also going to the petrol station is a pain and no one likes paying for fuel every 2-3 days a week, rich or not. It even sounds pretty good. In my eyes it was the petrol that was compromised tbh.Who knows, perhaps it's a psychological thing. If it was a toy\fun car, I wouldn't mind what the mpg was but I use it to plod around so it's one of the important factors I and many others base their work-a-day car buying criteria on.
I wouldn't have considered the petrol equivalent of my car tbh and judging by the fact that the majority of SUV's on the road are diesel, neither would a lot of others.
Edited by Guvernator on Wednesday 21st February 17:00
A big, torquey diesel, is EXACTLY the right engine engine for a big SUV.
I've had never owned, or had desired to own a diesel car, during the 37 years I've been driving, prior to buying the X5 last year, but a big diesel engined SUV/4x4 is a no-brainer IMHO.
I wonder how the DP's of all these new larger, swanky redeveloped UK Porsche dealerships are feeling now, with probably a 50% reduction in UK sales coming, and some quiet and very expensive dealership premises to pay for.
Putting aside the current almost hysterical anti-diesel hate on PH, much of it coming from people with short memories who only a few years ago raved about the likes of the BMW 335d, the irony of this announcement is that probably the best all rounder of this generation of Panamera is the diesel....0-100MPH timed by Autocar in under 10 secs, yet capable of over 40 MPG on a run, the diesel Panamera surely best fits the GT saloon brief?
I sort of understand why they've pulled the diesels, but cant help think its a bit short-sighted when so many of their sales involve diesel Macans and Cayennes.....
Guvernator said:
What compromise? My car does twice the mpg of the petrol equivalent and goes twice the distance before needing a fill up. Also going to the petrol station is a pain and no one likes paying for fuel every 2-3 days a week, rich or not.
It's having to stop twice on a long trip for petrol that becomes a pain.The death of diesels will surely make a big impact on the SUV market - I've noticed even VW diehards who have swapped their diesel Tiguans for the new one in petrol are finding the MPG hit is much worse that they expected.
Something else to consider is that the Board discussed quite heavily at the time of the prepping for the new Cayenne whether to offer the diesel models again. Their discussion centred around a concern that the ubiquity of the base model was causing issues with stepping up the price of the 911 and other halo products at the time that Ferrari and the like were ratcheting up the prices of their vehicles. They considered the business model of selling fewer vehicles but with higher margins and whether that would make more profit as it does at other premium performance marques. In the end they’ve managed to have their cake and eat it, retaining the lower end models while able to increase 911 prices via offering limited editions.
I wonder if they have revisited the numbers and calculated that removing the diesels and the subsequent sales volume loss will be beneficial insomuch as most lost sales will go to Audi and not a competitor, they can push up prices elsewhere as the marque becomes more exclusive and it scores good media brownie points?
The people running both Porsche and VW are not stupid and I’m sure they see a big angle here.
I wonder if they have revisited the numbers and calculated that removing the diesels and the subsequent sales volume loss will be beneficial insomuch as most lost sales will go to Audi and not a competitor, they can push up prices elsewhere as the marque becomes more exclusive and it scores good media brownie points?
The people running both Porsche and VW are not stupid and I’m sure they see a big angle here.
I owned a Cayenne V8 Diesel, best overall car I've ever owned. Went for a RS4 after that, which lasted 1 year, the shortest time I've owned a car. The fact that I had to fuel up every couple days, lower MPG and a fuel tank 6/10ths the size was annoying plus the rock hard ride on elastic band style tyres all added up to me selling it before the VED was renewed.
I miss the Cayenne a lot, do I miss the RS4? Yes but not nearly as much. The RS4 for me was a car I'd like for a weekend car but as an everyday car I just didn't enjoy it.
I miss the Cayenne a lot, do I miss the RS4? Yes but not nearly as much. The RS4 for me was a car I'd like for a weekend car but as an everyday car I just didn't enjoy it.
As someone who lives in London where Diesel really is going to be heavily legislated against over the next few years, the biggest pain in the backside of it's demise is that the proportion of used cars with a petrol engine is tiny.
On Autotrader if you want a 5 series Touring there are 1500 Diesels and 87 petrols. VAG and Merc are even worse. Lexus don't make an estate. I'm really going to struggle to replace my current car with something I actually want.
On Autotrader if you want a 5 series Touring there are 1500 Diesels and 87 petrols. VAG and Merc are even worse. Lexus don't make an estate. I'm really going to struggle to replace my current car with something I actually want.
tomic said:
As someone who lives in London where Diesel really is going to be heavily legislated against over the next few years, the biggest pain in the backside of it's demise is that the proportion of used cars with a petrol engine is tiny.
On Autotrader if you want a 5 series Touring there are 1500 Diesels and 87 petrols. VAG and Merc are even worse. Lexus don't make an estate. I'm really going to struggle to replace my current car with something I actually want.
Time for Lexus to bring back a Sportcross, this time in GS Hybrid form. Reckon the current Lexus design language would look mega in an estate.On Autotrader if you want a 5 series Touring there are 1500 Diesels and 87 petrols. VAG and Merc are even worse. Lexus don't make an estate. I'm really going to struggle to replace my current car with something I actually want.
Wacky Racer said:
V88Dicky said:
Check out Mazda's really rather good SkyActiv G engines, available in virtually every model.
Just bought a new Mazda 6 diesel...it's, powerful, smooth and ultra quiet.A
I was actually on about the SkyActive G (gasoline), almost 60mpg from a 2.0 petrol, very impressive.
I'm looking forward to the SkyActive X, apparently 30% more efficient!
aeropilot said:
Quite.
A big, torquey diesel, is EXACTLY the right engine engine for a big SUV.
I've had never owned, or had desired to own a diesel car, during the 37 years I've been driving, prior to buying the X5 last year, but a big diesel engined SUV/4x4 is a no-brainer IMHO.
I wonder how the DP's of all these new larger, swanky redeveloped UK Porsche dealerships are feeling now, with probably a 50% reduction in UK sales coming, and some quiet and very expensive dealership premises to pay for.
A big, torquey diesel, is EXACTLY the right engine engine for a big SUV.
I've had never owned, or had desired to own a diesel car, during the 37 years I've been driving, prior to buying the X5 last year, but a big diesel engined SUV/4x4 is a no-brainer IMHO.
I wonder how the DP's of all these new larger, swanky redeveloped UK Porsche dealerships are feeling now, with probably a 50% reduction in UK sales coming, and some quiet and very expensive dealership premises to pay for.
My mate is a DP of a Porsche dealership and he was saying when I saw him at Christmas that they have seen a huge swing to petrols in the last 18 months on orders placed for cars that used to be bought as diesels such as Macan and Cayenne etc.
Problem is, people are comparing NA petrols with diesels, most modern petrols are now FI anyway, so you get the low down torque.
If you can afford to lose £30-40,000 over 3 years and 36k miles, you can afford £10 a week more on fuel surely?
Any as said, the petrol drives like the diesel anyway, just more revs and a nicer soundtrack.
So it really only comes down to trying to save a few quid at the pump.
Or maybe not:
Porsche UK said:
Traditionally, diesel engines have played a subordinate role at Porsche - the company does not develop or build diesel engines itself. Currently, the demand for diesel models is falling, whereas interest in hybrid and petrol models is increasing significantly. For example, the ratio for hybrid versions of the new Panamera in Europe is around 60 percent. In light of these facts Porsche has adapted its product planning. This decision means that Porsche currently does not offer any vehicles with diesel engines. However, it does not mean a diesel exit at Porsche. As announced, the new Cayenne is set to feature a diesel powertrain. The exact time of the market launch it not yet clear
SpiegelOnline has published an article on poor air quality in German cities caused by diesels. among other things it says that type approval of the Macan is at risk because of software issues. It also says that Mercedes is under investigation for manipulating AdBlue usage so that it does not have to be replenished between service intervals. If this turns out to be true it would be as bad as VWs original software cheat. The German car (and commercial) industry is under considerable political pressure right now, despite the close political links it has assiduously developed over many years. If the old political order (CDU plus SPD) continues to shrivel that pressure will grow even more. The decision to drop the diesel is a mark of epic failure by the German manufacturers.
oldtimer2 said:
SpiegelOnline has published an article on poor air quality in German cities caused by diesels. among other things it says that type approval of the Macan is at risk because of software issues. It also says that Mercedes is under investigation for manipulating AdBlue usage so that it does not have to be replenished between service intervals. If this turns out to be true it would be as bad as VWs original software cheat. The German car (and commercial) industry is under considerable political pressure right now, despite the close political links it has assiduously developed over many years. If the old political order (CDU plus SPD) continues to shrivel that pressure will grow even more. The decision to drop the diesel is a mark of epic failure by the German manufacturers.
Update with the actual quote from the article:"After tens of thousands of VW diesel automobiles, it is Daimler's turn for an official recall this week: Investigators have apparently found a particularly innovative manipulation technology inside the Vito van. The vehicle's engine management system was apparently programmed so that the amount of diesel exhaust fluid (AdBlue) -- used to reduce nitrogen oxide emissions -- injected into the SCR catalyzer was reduced to ensure that the fluid would not have to be refilled prior to the next scheduled service appointment. The consequence was that in many driving situations, the car would emit more nitrogen oxide despite being equipped with emissions reduction systems."
The regulators believes that iif it appears on one model it will also appear on another. Mercedes has denied it and has threatened legal action. We shall see.
Seems the premise of this article is misleading, because Porsche (Sweden) yesterday acknowledged that there will be a diesel version of the new Cayenne... (edit
this year or latest next. If it clears the new emissions regs, why not? It's not as if the tech is too expensive in this price range... As long as the playing field is level...
this year or latest next. If it clears the new emissions regs, why not? It's not as if the tech is too expensive in this price range... As long as the playing field is level... Edited by Onehp on Thursday 22 February 10:16
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