Has anyone ever used a DSG / ZF and not liked it?
Discussion
Time to replace the daily, and the only experience I've had of auto's is hire/work cars in the States. I've always had manual before.
The short list for replacement (2014 model) with either be a Golf/Seat GTi/R/Cupra which seems best with DSG or a M135i or 328i Touring again am told best with the 8 speed ZF box.
Everyone I have spoken to who has gone DSG or ZF for a daily car really rates them. Obviously I'll go for test drives but the question is has anyone gone for these boxes and really wished they'd stuck with manual instead?
The short list for replacement (2014 model) with either be a Golf/Seat GTi/R/Cupra which seems best with DSG or a M135i or 328i Touring again am told best with the 8 speed ZF box.
Everyone I have spoken to who has gone DSG or ZF for a daily car really rates them. Obviously I'll go for test drives but the question is has anyone gone for these boxes and really wished they'd stuck with manual instead?
I've had a few DSG variants in recent years (Fabia vRS, Golf R, Golf GTE) plus an M135i with a ZF8.
I liked all of them over manuals, but then almost every journey involves some traffic or the M25. If I was doing a 20 mile commute down deserted A/B roads I'd probably think differently.
ZF8 is my favourite. Marginally slower shifts than DSG but a traditional auto "feel" for slow-speed stuff. DSG needs to work out how fast to engage the clutch based on how hard you're pushing the accelerator - it can do from a gradual creep to a full-bore launch (just as you can yourself with the clutch pedal in a manual). It just takes a little getting used to exactly how much to press to get what you want.
I liked all of them over manuals, but then almost every journey involves some traffic or the M25. If I was doing a 20 mile commute down deserted A/B roads I'd probably think differently.
ZF8 is my favourite. Marginally slower shifts than DSG but a traditional auto "feel" for slow-speed stuff. DSG needs to work out how fast to engage the clutch based on how hard you're pushing the accelerator - it can do from a gradual creep to a full-bore launch (just as you can yourself with the clutch pedal in a manual). It just takes a little getting used to exactly how much to press to get what you want.
335dx xdrive with ZF8 sport auto. A fantastic combination.
Start and go in auto comfort. Want it swifter?, knock the lever left into sport for quicker changes with longer holds. Move that lever, or use paddles, then you are in full manual mode.
If you stay in comfort auto (i.e. don’t put into sport), you can still use the paddles to change up or down, and they will revert back when the system decides it should (it always gets it correct, and will hold the lower gears on a descent).
For me it was a big leap of faith to go to auto, but well-justified.
Start and go in auto comfort. Want it swifter?, knock the lever left into sport for quicker changes with longer holds. Move that lever, or use paddles, then you are in full manual mode.
If you stay in comfort auto (i.e. don’t put into sport), you can still use the paddles to change up or down, and they will revert back when the system decides it should (it always gets it correct, and will hold the lower gears on a descent).
For me it was a big leap of faith to go to auto, but well-justified.
The work on 'rapid' cars as it all makes sense. On say a tiguan or bland VAG white goods I find it detracts.
I've had both DSG and ZF and to a mortal like me would say I couldn't tell the difference. Both were lightening quick and did what they were told! I wouldn't like going back to a manual now, to many queues and congestion to deal with.
I've had both DSG and ZF and to a mortal like me would say I couldn't tell the difference. Both were lightening quick and did what they were told! I wouldn't like going back to a manual now, to many queues and congestion to deal with.
Funnily enough I preferred the DSG to the BMW
Had the 8 speed box in a 320d msport trim and found it changed too slow in manual mode as well as automatic for the twistys, however on the motorway the 8th gear was good
where as the dsg I had in a vw passat had instant change up or down and was more responsive and quicker
Had the 8 speed box in a 320d msport trim and found it changed too slow in manual mode as well as automatic for the twistys, however on the motorway the 8th gear was good
where as the dsg I had in a vw passat had instant change up or down and was more responsive and quicker
I'm potentially getting a 2.0 TSI Scirocco DSG next month and i'm really looking forward to it. My commute is alot of stop/start city driving and getting stuck in congestion/traffic alot.
With that being said, i think i'd have the DSG regardless. Driving manuals doesn't really hugely satisfy me anymore and i think a decent auto with paddles set up could be more fun.
Each to their own though. The heavy clutch of the Clio 172/182 that i was originally considering as my next car doesn't help either
With that being said, i think i'd have the DSG regardless. Driving manuals doesn't really hugely satisfy me anymore and i think a decent auto with paddles set up could be more fun.
Each to their own though. The heavy clutch of the Clio 172/182 that i was originally considering as my next car doesn't help either
I went DSG 5 years ago on the daily ( I regularly drive 3 other manuals) mainly because on the commute ( stop start, m25 etc etc) I just got to my destination feeling more relaxed.
DSG is different to a traditional auto, you need to learn how to drive it, don't assume its the same as a conventional auto, thats what most people do and then complain it doesn't respond etc.
Never before have phrases such as prepare to go, be ready to stop, slow in, fast out been truer that when driving a DSG either in Auto or manual. If you drive it in the right way and give all the right signals to the electronics on arriving at a junction/bend it will be ready to drive out of it. Snatch last minute decisions will leave you hating the experience.
DSG is different to a traditional auto, you need to learn how to drive it, don't assume its the same as a conventional auto, thats what most people do and then complain it doesn't respond etc.
Never before have phrases such as prepare to go, be ready to stop, slow in, fast out been truer that when driving a DSG either in Auto or manual. If you drive it in the right way and give all the right signals to the electronics on arriving at a junction/bend it will be ready to drive out of it. Snatch last minute decisions will leave you hating the experience.
They're both undeniably excellent, but as with anything there are pros and cons.
A friend of mine owned a DSG VW and didn't really get on with it; he now has a ZF BMW and much prefers it.
A PHer who I know (Waremark) had a double clutch E92 M3 for a few years, but plumped for a manual when he changed his car - note though that it isn't a daily driver. He has a lot of experience with different cars and that was a very deliberate choice. He may add more if he's reading this.
Personally, I've tried a double clutch M3 and driven a friend's 520d with the ZF box, both on nice twisty roads and for a good amount of time, and although I acknowledge that both are excellent (esp the double clutch box in the M3), I would choose a manual over either. This is on the understanding that I didn't have to drive in traffic too much, because I have a nerve injury to my left leg which puts me in a lot of pain if I have to balance the clutch a lot. I'd regrettably have an auto if I lived in a built up area. My reasoning for that is weight and preferring direct control over the car. Both have manual modes, which you might think invalidates my second point, but if I always use either box in manual mode, then I might as well just be carrying around a simple clutch rather than a torque converter or the casings, two boxes and two clutches required for a double clutch box, both of which are pretty heavy, plus you've got the expense of replacing things.
For most drivers not obsessed with weight and also perhaps living in a built up area, I think both DSG and the ZF auto make perfect sense. For someone like me who loves driving and lives in the countryside, a manual is still a valid option and is my preferred choice.
A friend of mine owned a DSG VW and didn't really get on with it; he now has a ZF BMW and much prefers it.
A PHer who I know (Waremark) had a double clutch E92 M3 for a few years, but plumped for a manual when he changed his car - note though that it isn't a daily driver. He has a lot of experience with different cars and that was a very deliberate choice. He may add more if he's reading this.
Personally, I've tried a double clutch M3 and driven a friend's 520d with the ZF box, both on nice twisty roads and for a good amount of time, and although I acknowledge that both are excellent (esp the double clutch box in the M3), I would choose a manual over either. This is on the understanding that I didn't have to drive in traffic too much, because I have a nerve injury to my left leg which puts me in a lot of pain if I have to balance the clutch a lot. I'd regrettably have an auto if I lived in a built up area. My reasoning for that is weight and preferring direct control over the car. Both have manual modes, which you might think invalidates my second point, but if I always use either box in manual mode, then I might as well just be carrying around a simple clutch rather than a torque converter or the casings, two boxes and two clutches required for a double clutch box, both of which are pretty heavy, plus you've got the expense of replacing things.
For most drivers not obsessed with weight and also perhaps living in a built up area, I think both DSG and the ZF auto make perfect sense. For someone like me who loves driving and lives in the countryside, a manual is still a valid option and is my preferred choice.
A205GTI said:
Funnily enough I preferred the DSG to the BMW
Had the 8 speed box in a 320d msport trim and found it changed too slow in manual mode as well as automatic for the twistys, however on the motorway the 8th gear was good
where as the dsg I had in a vw passat had instant change up or down and was more responsive and quicker
There are two versions of the ZF, the cooking one and the sport one.Had the 8 speed box in a 320d msport trim and found it changed too slow in manual mode as well as automatic for the twistys, however on the motorway the 8th gear was good
where as the dsg I had in a vw passat had instant change up or down and was more responsive and quicker
The former is a bit slower, the latter is very quick. The latter is the one you get with the like of the M135i/M140i
I moved to a DSG last year and don't think I could go back to a manual now for my daily driver. I'm already looking at what cars to replace this lease with in 12 months time and all the cars in my ideal budget are manual so I'll have to up the budget by a lot to fit in a decent auto/DSG. My commute is across a city though so constant stop/start with lots of traffic.
It seems a lot of PH'ers have quite long and open commutes so have time to enjoy the manual interaction on a daily basis whereas travelling for 25 minutes to cover 6 miles is never any fun.
It seems a lot of PH'ers have quite long and open commutes so have time to enjoy the manual interaction on a daily basis whereas travelling for 25 minutes to cover 6 miles is never any fun.
This sums up the issue very nicely:
For me, each day I spend 20 minutes on twisty NSL B and C roads in 3rd, 4th and 5th gears enjoying the corners, 2 minutes in a 30mph limit with no stoppages and 70 minutes at a steady 70mph in top gear on cruise control, punctuated by a couple of very tight twisty sliproads. An auto or DSG for me would be pointless weight and expense. It's very individual.
HJMS123 said:
It seems a lot of PH'ers have quite long and open commutes so have time to enjoy the manual interaction on a daily basis whereas travelling for 25 minutes to cover 6 miles is never any fun.
For me, each day I spend 20 minutes on twisty NSL B and C roads in 3rd, 4th and 5th gears enjoying the corners, 2 minutes in a 30mph limit with no stoppages and 70 minutes at a steady 70mph in top gear on cruise control, punctuated by a couple of very tight twisty sliproads. An auto or DSG for me would be pointless weight and expense. It's very individual.
RobM77 said:
They're both undeniably excellent, but as with anything there are pros and cons
...
but if I always use either box in manual mode, then I might as well just be carrying around a simple clutch rather than a torque converter or the casings, two boxes and two clutches required for a double clutch box, both of which are pretty heavy, plus you've got the expense of replacing things
...
a manual is still a valid option and is my preferred choice.
Although I think you've got the last bit spot on, I think there's a bit of a sticking point with the expense. ...
but if I always use either box in manual mode, then I might as well just be carrying around a simple clutch rather than a torque converter or the casings, two boxes and two clutches required for a double clutch box, both of which are pretty heavy, plus you've got the expense of replacing things
...
a manual is still a valid option and is my preferred choice.
Manual options usually need a clutch and flywheel at some point. Maybe after 80k miles-ish average? It seems for the most part that modern DSG and DCT boxes are very reliable and won't need clutches or flywheels replacing.
Also you've skipped over the fairly sizable performance difference! Using the e92 as an example as I have a DCT M3; the DCT has an extra gear, better ratios 1-6 and a longer 7th for cruising. The shifts are immediate and there's no loss of drive.
A friend of mine has the ZF8 in his M140i, its smoother at low speeds as you would expect and still has nice slick shifts when pressing on.
Don't get me wrong, I can see why people could get bored and I wasn't 100% sure I'd like the DCT before going for it, but I absolutely love using the paddles and blitzing through the gears, and the 20kg or so weight difference is negligible on a 1600kg car especially since the two usual penalties of more weight are negated by the better ratios.
But yeah, at the end of the day the manual vs auto thing is entirely personal; test drive some and see. And even then you don't know how you'll feel some months down the line. You can always flog the auto and source a manual and probably come out with some change if you don't take a liking to it.
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