Has anyone ever used a DSG / ZF and not liked it?

Has anyone ever used a DSG / ZF and not liked it?

Author
Discussion

cologne2792

2,126 posts

125 months

Friday 23rd February 2018
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I've never owned an auto but driven plenty, most recently 6 and 7 series and A8.
I get the idea and if your battling through heavy traffic I see the point.
But probably from driving manuals for 30 + years I just don't feel suitably engaged with the road or the driving process.
The only one that really worked for me was an older XJ8 which did feel in keeping with the spirit of the car.

Car-Matt

1,923 posts

137 months

Friday 23rd February 2018
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Having used both extensively then if you are set on an Auto, which I am myself for the daily commute then a proper torque converter is by far the best in my opinion.

Silky smooth, no clutch take-up and the latest zf boxes shift so quickly its hard to see what a dsg does better. I think ultimate performance a dsg might just shade it but for an everyday car for all things then a decent modern torque converter from ZF is the proverbial dogs reproductive sack

RobM77

35,349 posts

233 months

Friday 23rd February 2018
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joeshaw123 said:
RobM77 said:
They're both undeniably excellent, but as with anything there are pros and cons
...
but if I always use either box in manual mode, then I might as well just be carrying around a simple clutch rather than a torque converter or the casings, two boxes and two clutches required for a double clutch box, both of which are pretty heavy, plus you've got the expense of replacing things
...
a manual is still a valid option and is my preferred choice.
Although I think you've got the last bit spot on, I think there's a bit of a sticking point with the expense.
Manual options usually need a clutch and flywheel at some point. Maybe after 80k miles-ish average? It seems for the most part that modern DSG and DCT boxes are very reliable and won't need clutches or flywheels replacing.

Also you've skipped over the fairly sizable performance difference! Using the e92 as an example as I have a DCT M3; the DCT has an extra gear, better ratios 1-6 and a longer 7th for cruising. The shifts are immediate and there's no loss of drive.
A friend of mine has the ZF8 in his M140i, its smoother at low speeds as you would expect and still has nice slick shifts when pressing on.

Don't get me wrong, I can see why people could get bored and I wasn't 100% sure I'd like the DCT before going for it, but I absolutely love using the paddles and blitzing through the gears, and the 20kg or so weight difference is negligible on a 1600kg car especially since the two usual penalties of more weight are negated by the better ratios.

But yeah, at the end of the day the manual vs auto thing is entirely personal; test drive some and see. And even then you don't know how you'll feel some months down the line. You can always flog the auto and source a manual and probably come out with some change if you don't take a liking to it.
Good points, but two things I would say:

I'm on my 14th car over just under 24 years of driving, some of which I've taken to well over 100k miles and three of which have been track/racing cars with a hard life. All of those cars had manual boxes and I've never replaced a clutch. My last car ran from 0 to 149k miles on the same clutch, including towing. I even had gearbox bearings go in an E36 325i at 153k miles and they inspected the clutch and it was like new. My thinking was that if you do get a replacement, on a DSG there are obviously two clutches, plus a lot of extra complexity..

Regarding weight, I was under the impression it was a lot more than 20kg difference between a manual box and a DSG? A 320d such as my current daily driver is a lot less than 1600kg - quoted weight for mine is under 1400kg. Both of those effects mean you're carrying a fair bit - I realise it's on the floor, but it's not ideal to hunk around that much extra - I regularly drive a 100kg friend and my 70kg wife and I can tell the difference very clearly.

I'm not trying to nit-pick, and I do see your point just wanted to point those things out.

At the end of the day, I just prefer manuals, never drive in town and do a lot of twisty road driving - that's the main message of my post. yes

Edited by RobM77 on Friday 23 February 16:28

ghost83

5,476 posts

189 months

Friday 23rd February 2018
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I love my dsg in my golf gti so effortless and do t believe when people say they aren’t involving! I’ve been to Whitby today over the moors and had quite a lot of fun!

Then when you’re on the motorway it makes driving and queues nice linked with the adaptive cruise!

Go for the golf you won’t be dissapointed anyone that’s looking for a golf I will be selling mine next September and it’s beaut (rs3 or macan is calling if it’s still in production)

joeshaw123

71 posts

137 months

Friday 23rd February 2018
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RobM77 said:
...Stuff...

At the end of the day, I just prefer manuals, never drive in town and do a lot of twisty road driving - that's the main message of my post. yes
I can't find an official source but there's been a few posts about it on various BM forums I'm on, and a swift google shows around 1655kg kerb weight manual, and 1675kg kerb weight DCT:
https://www.auto-data.net/en/bmw-m3-coupe-e92-4.0i...
https://www.auto-data.net/en/bmw-m3-coupe-e92-4.0i...

To be fair, I've had loads of different cars by different manufacturers over the last ten years and I've only needed a new clutch on one of them, a 130k mile-old E46 330ci. And it was about £120 and I fitted it myself - so I can only imagine how many times that it'd cost to have the clutch packs replaced (theres two packs with 5 friction plates in each on an e92 DCT eek)

Traditional auto boxes tend to be much heavier as they don't work in the same way, they have several planetary gearsets, internal brakes and clutches and a big ol' torque converter too whereas a DCT is like a normal gearbox where one clutch pack does the odd gears and one does the evens.

Anyway, I digress, I was nit picking for the sake of it, sorry! biggrin

Nowadays gearboxes are mostly brilliant and if they aren't there is no excuse for it.

I completely agree, it entirely boils down to the usage of the car and personal preference! OP - try both and see.

Krikkit

26,500 posts

180 months

Friday 23rd February 2018
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joeshaw123 said:
whereas a DCT is like a normal gearbox where one clutch pack does the odd gears and one does the evens.
Not really.

A DCT generally has an extra layshaft for the gears, as well as extra clutch parts. They often have a wet rather than dry clutch setup which adds oil. You've also got the extra mechatronics to go in the box over the standard forks etc of a normal manual. DCT works out almost as heavy as a traditional torque-converter.

Pica-Pica

13,621 posts

83 months

Friday 23rd February 2018
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Apart from a 1972 1100 Escort, I have never had a clutch needed changing in all my other cars that I have kept for 140k miles. But, as has been said, for me the ZF8 sport auto is the mutt’s nuts.

DoubleD

22,154 posts

107 months

Friday 23rd February 2018
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ghost83 said:
I love my dsg in my golf gti so effortless and do t believe when people say they aren’t involving! I’ve been to Whitby today over the moors and had quite a lot of fun!
Why should he believe what you say more than what someone else says?

I dont find automatics involving, but you do. Both are valid opinions.

mradam

166 posts

93 months

Friday 23rd February 2018
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I've driven DSGs for the past 8 years or so in a variety of VAG cars. What everyone says about needing to "learn" how to treat the DSG is key for a satisfying drive.

The only negative was when one of my cars ate both mechatronic units (the actuators that operate the clutches in the DSG), that was an expensive day for VW Warranty Department (about £1000 per mechatronic unit). Low speed shunt as it engages 1st is a key indicator of a mech about to go, although can also just be driving style.

Absolutely critical is to ensure the DSG service has been carried out at the right intervals (every 40,000miles in my VW's), failure to do the DSG service (mainly an oil and filter change in the gearbox) leads to the gearbox going downhill quite fast. It's easily overlooked by a lot of owners, and the 2014 cars you'll be looking at probably should have had at least one DSG service by now.

cerb4.5lee

30,189 posts

179 months

Friday 23rd February 2018
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Had a ZF6 Auto three times, a ZF8 Auto once and DSG once...I didn't really like any of them! That's because I much prefer a three pedal manual though.

The benefit of an Auto/dual clutch for me is in heavy start/stop traffic, and they do offer a relaxing feel to drive. They're very boring when you want to have fun and push on for me though.

Ahbefive

11,657 posts

171 months

Friday 23rd February 2018
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They are both good gearboxes whilst they are in warranty, ZF better imo. For boring driving you can't go wrong but when you want to have fun a manual box with 3 pedals is much more fun and involving.

TurboHatchback

4,151 posts

152 months

Friday 23rd February 2018
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I think they are fantastic but very application specific. Changing gear manually in big bargey cars does nothing for me, it's just a chore so a gearbox that does so flawlessly is a godsend. In a small, low powered lightweight sports car whose entire raison d'etre is engagement then a manual is mandatory, an automatic would detract from the experience.

SMB said:
DSG is different to a traditional auto, you need to learn how to drive it, don't assume its the same as a conventional auto, thats what most people do and then complain it doesn't respond etc.

Never before have phrases such as prepare to go, be ready to stop, slow in, fast out been truer that when driving a DSG either in Auto or manual. If you drive it in the right way and give all the right signals to the electronics on arriving at a junction/bend it will be ready to drive out of it. Snatch last minute decisions will leave you hating the experience.
Very true. Understanding how the DSG actually works with regards to pre-selecting gears and engaging clutches is key to being able to drive one properly, if you just stab away at the pedal then often it won't do what you want it to but drive it properly and they're superb.

Wooda80

1,743 posts

74 months

Friday 23rd February 2018
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I'm glad this subject has come up - please can someone explain to me the reason for VW's obsession with DSG?

I kind of get it on the sporty stuff where you can come over all Troy Queef about split second changes and instant response, but on a 1.4TSI or a 2.0TDI?

What's the trade off for the will it / won't it creep, and the jerky uptake of drive? Do I really need to "learn to drive it" when it should be something that anyone can jump into and drive straight away?

Porsche PDK appears to be a similar principle but the later versions of that work just fine, so surely VW can find a way to duplicate that at an acceptable cost?

Have they never driven a ZF8 in Wolfsburg?

joeshaw123

71 posts

137 months

Friday 23rd February 2018
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Krikkit said:
Not really.

A DCT generally has an extra layshaft for the gears, as well as extra clutch parts. They often have a wet rather than dry clutch setup which adds oil. You've also got the extra mechatronics to go in the box over the standard forks etc of a normal manual. DCT works out almost as heavy as a traditional torque-converter.
I know, I was glossing over this a bit. I meant the helical gear pairings rather than planetary. I assumed the torque converter was heftier than the clutch packs in the DCT as they’re surprisingly dainty.
But I can’t explain the earlier post where there was a huge weight difference quoted. I think the e92 335i lost 15kg or so going from an auto to a DCT, so pretty minimal!

ghost83

5,476 posts

189 months

Friday 23rd February 2018
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Most come with auto hold so won’t creep but if it doesn’t or it’s turned off mine creeps for a bit, never tried it for long though,

Like today though I’ve been sat in traffic just the adaptive cruise on and let it do it’s thing it’s a joy in stop start traffic!

On more adventurous roads I have it in manual and change on the paddles and it’s great fun tbh and it is quicker than a manual!

I’ve driven manuals for 17yrs and done just over a million miles according to my log at work and I enjoy manuals but I’m glad I’ve got this dsg!

legless

1,686 posts

139 months

Friday 23rd February 2018
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Wooda80 said:
I'm glad this subject has come up - please can someone explain to me the reason for VW's obsession with DSG?

I kind of get it on the sporty stuff where you can come over all Troy Queef about split second changes and instant response, but on a 1.4TSI or a 2.0TDI?

What's the trade off for the will it / won't it creep, and the jerky uptake of drive? Do I really need to "learn to drive it" when it should be something that anyone can jump into and drive straight away?

Porsche PDK appears to be a similar principle but the later versions of that work just fine, so surely VW can find a way to duplicate that at an acceptable cost?

Have they never driven a ZF8 in Wolfsburg?
There's actually only 1 VW that the ZF8 will fit due to drivetrain layout, and that's where it's used (Touareg).

High-torque engines in MLB platform Audis use the ZF8 too.

Admittedly I've only driven DSGs built in the last 5 years, but I've never experienced any odd issues with them. They've all been smooth, they've all crept similarly to a torque converter box and they've all been able to be driven like any other auto.

The only issue I've noticed is on cars with manual handbrakes. Applying the handbrake at a standstill with the box in D causes an unpleasant pull against the brakes as it tries to take up drive and fails. Cars with electronic handbrakes don't suffer from this - it won't attempt to take up drive until the brake is released.

Edited by legless on Friday 23 February 18:15

Limpet

6,293 posts

160 months

Friday 23rd February 2018
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I love the ZF8 in the M140i. Just every so often it can be a little dim-witted in Comfort mode if you suddenly need a burst of acceleration, but it's super smooth and is pretty much always in the right gear. I find the changes in Sport mode to be near instantaneous, although it changes with a bit of a thump and on more than one occasion has caused the rear wheels to spin up. So responsive though, and I find it so much nicer and more progressive in heavy traffic conditions than the DSGs I've driven.

MrGTI6

3,157 posts

129 months

Friday 23rd February 2018
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I think DSGs are overrated and personally think they're crap. They shift very quickly, but that's about the only thing they're good for. They're slow to respond when pulling away, unable to creep in traffic, jerky at low speeds, and they seem to deteriorate fairly quickly.

The eight-speed ZF 'box on the other hand is in a completely different league. It shifts almost as quick, but unlike the DSG it's smooth and effortless in stop-start traffic.

FastDad

196 posts

80 months

Friday 23rd February 2018
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NDNDNDND said:
I've driven a couple of VAG DSGs.

Boring as hell.

If my commute was non-stop traffic I'd consider them.

But seriously, life is too short to be that bored.
If your life is made not boring by changing gear, then I think you have bigger problems laugh

Scottie - NW

Original Poster:

1,284 posts

232 months

Friday 23rd February 2018
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Just want to say thanks so much, there are some really good posts and comments here, I have learned a lot.

I will probably be trying the dsg/zf option on whichever of the cars I choose in the first post, I am looking to try and hire one for 24 hours as it seems this is a subject very much depending on the individual.

Am going from a manual diesel as the daily, decided i spend over 95% of seat time in this daily car i want it to be petrol and fun to drive. Will also do the basic upgrades of air filter/kit, remap, FMIC, downpipe/exhaust or similar for each car.

If i don't like dsg/zf for any reason will swap for another one before doing the above, and i have two manual fun cars to choose between for the weekend. Although i have to sell one due a soon to be 17 year old son who i need to get insured on one.

Thanks again for such great responses.