Has anyone ever used a DSG / ZF and not liked it?

[liner33]

Scottie - NW said:

How do they cope with tuning?

Is the DSG in the Golf Gti/R/Cupra good for 400bhp and 400 lb/ft?

Is the M135i ZF8 good for 450bhp and 500 lb/ft?

These seem realistic targets with bolt on mods.

I dont think the DSG in the Golf R is the same as the GTI and there are certainly variable ZF8 transmissions

[CraigyMc]

e30m3Mark said:

I prefer a good old fashioned gear lever.

And manual choke.
And a manual ignition advancer.

(Actually, I'm with you. I don't enjoy autos unless they are proper paddleshift sequentials for racing cars)

[CraigyMc]

Scottie - NW said:

How do they cope with tuning?

Is the DSG in the Golf Gti/R/Cupra good for 400bhp and 400 lb/ft?

Is the M135i ZF8 good for 450bhp and 500 lb/ft?

These seem realistic targets with bolt on mods.

Ignore the power numbers.

Transmissions are rated by torque and anyone who intimates otherwise is leading you astray.

[RobM77]

CraigyMc said:

e30m3Mark said:

I prefer a good old fashioned gear lever.

And manual choke.
And a manual ignition advancer.

(Actually, I'm with you. I don't enjoy autos unless they are proper paddleshift sequentials for racing cars)

I realise I'm preaching to the converted, but just for the record, people often quote those sort of things. I've driven both (the manual advance/retard only briefly, but the manual choke for many years), and neither of them really added to the driving like a manual box does, now do they detract or add to control through corners, which for me is what driving is all about.

Just something to note quickly, but the vast majority of seq shift racing cars are actually manuals with a manually operated clutch, not autos. I have a seq shift Formula Renault, and it has three pedals like a manual car - the gearbox works just like a motorbike (and you wouldn't call a bike an auto!). The reason you don't need the clutch when shifting is because of the way a racing box works, not because it's an automatic gearbox. Note that a traditional H pattern racing box can also be used without the clutch. The only automation I'm aware of is in F1, where the ECU operates the clutch on shifts for the driver; mind you, it's still a manual racing clutch, and they do have clutch paddles which they use when starting off, just like you do in any other man seq racing car.

[Scottie - NW]

CraigyMc said:

Scottie - NW said:

How do they cope with tuning?

Is the DSG in the Golf Gti/R/Cupra good for 400bhp and 400 lb/ft?

Is the M135i ZF8 good for 450bhp and 500 lb/ft?

These seem realistic targets with bolt on mods.

Ignore the power numbers.

Transmissions are rated by torque and anyone who intimates otherwise is leading you astray.

That's why I put the torque figures

[BUG4LIFE]

My OH and I are currently looking at a few 66 plate Mk7 Golfs [petrol 1.4 GT]. A couple of our maybe list are DSGs, the other a manual.

It's going to be my wife's car and she doesn't seem bothered either way. I may of mentioned once or twice about the potential cost of repairing/replacing a DSG so I think she is learning towards the manual to minimise any future problems. I think the only way I'd consider a DSG is if we extended the warranty but I'm not sure how much VW charge [I will have to find out].

I haven't really thought about some of the things I've read in this thread though; about the DSG being difficult to drive smoothly in stop-start traffic, or hesitation etc. We did briefly test drive a DSG Golf a good few months ago and I can't remember it being any different than a 'normal' auto.

It does appear that people have quite different experiences though, reading through this thread!!

[Ares]

BUG4LIFE]My OH and I are currently looking at a few 66 plate Mk7 Golfs [petrol 1.4 GT said:

. A couple of our maybe list are DSGs, the other a manual.

It's going to be my wife's car and she doesn't seem bothered either way. I may of mentioned once or twice about the potential cost of repairing/replacing a DSG so I think she is learning towards the manual to minimise any future problems. I think the only way I'd consider a DSG is if we extended the warranty but I'm not sure how much VW charge [I will have to find out].

I haven't really thought about some of the things I've read in this thread though; about the DSG being difficult to drive smoothly in stop-start traffic, or hesitation etc. We did briefly test drive a DSG Golf a good few months ago and I can't remember it being any different than a 'normal' auto.

It does appear that people have quite different experiences though, reading through this thread!!

No-one really hates the ZF or DSG box. They may hate automatic gearboxes. They may feel that if you are a proper motorist you *must* have a three pedal manual, but in the world of two pedals, the ZF and every DSG/PDK I've driven are fantastic.

But if you don't like autos, you won't like any auto, ZF/DSG/PDK/Whatever.


11yrs ago, my daily driver was an Exige. I could never imagine having any automotive fun without three pedals. I'm now on my 5th auto, I have as much fun as I ever had in any manual when driving for the hell of it....AND it's massively preferable for routine A-to-B motoring (which is still 90% of my time behind the wheel). I've preferred the auto after driving back-to-back with a manual on several occasions, and now can't realistically see me ever getting a manual again, unless I get back into a Caterham.

But if you prefer manuals, you'll prefer a manual.

[e30m3Mark]

There's no doubt that modern DSG type gearboxes are incredibly quick, smooth and easy to use. They do their job brilliantly! Unfortunately, for me anyway, their being so good contributes to the feeling I'm more and more divorced from that mechanical feeling of my actually driving my car. I'm simply along for the ride much of the time and that's not what I want from my car. I want all the cliched "seat of your pants", "finger tip control" and "satisfyingly mechanical gear change" and to get those old fashioned feelings, I need an old fashioned transmission and drivetrain.

[fido]

With a manual you can control your level of acceleration more intuitively (using both clutch and throttle), with an auto/DCT it is driven off the amount of throttle - I don't like that feeling even crawling along in traffic. I end up switching between 'M/Sport' mode and 'Normal' to regain some of this control.

[BUG4LIFE]

I do agree with the above but as mentioned, the car if for my OH, so driver involvement is high up her list

We've both driven a fair number of torque converter autos, and get on with them fine, but reading a few bits and bobs about treating a DSG differently seems odd! I'd just want her to have something that is easy to use at the end of the day.

[JuanGandini]

I've just taken delivery of a Skoda Octavia 245 vRS with the 7 speed wet clutch DSG box. I've also previously run an M135i with the ZF8 auto for two years. Both are great boxes in my opinion. It's early days for me with the DSG but early impressions are that it's extremely smooth to the point I can scarcely notice gear changes (in normal mode - not tried sport much yet). The ZF8 in the M135i was very good and also smooth and responsive but on cold starts it could be slightly clunky, causing 1>2 gear changes to be lumpy. Thereafter it was great.

Either way, they're extremely good gearboxes for modern stop-start driving.

[RobM77]

Ares said:

BUG4LIFE]My OH and I are currently looking at a few 66 plate Mk7 Golfs [petrol 1.4 GT said:

. A couple of our maybe list are DSGs, the other a manual.

It's going to be my wife's car and she doesn't seem bothered either way. I may of mentioned once or twice about the potential cost of repairing/replacing a DSG so I think she is learning towards the manual to minimise any future problems. I think the only way I'd consider a DSG is if we extended the warranty but I'm not sure how much VW charge [I will have to find out].

I haven't really thought about some of the things I've read in this thread though; about the DSG being difficult to drive smoothly in stop-start traffic, or hesitation etc. We did briefly test drive a DSG Golf a good few months ago and I can't remember it being any different than a 'normal' auto.

It does appear that people have quite different experiences though, reading through this thread!!

No-one really hates the ZF or DSG box. They may hate automatic gearboxes. They may feel that if you are a proper motorist you *must* have a three pedal manual, but in the world of two pedals, the ZF and every DSG/PDK I've driven are fantastic.

But if you don't like autos, you won't like any auto, ZF/DSG/PDK/Whatever.


11yrs ago, my daily driver was an Exige. I could never imagine having any automotive fun without three pedals. I'm now on my 5th auto, I have as much fun as I ever had in any manual when driving for the hell of it....AND it's massively preferable for routine A-to-B motoring (which is still 90% of my time behind the wheel). I've preferred the auto after driving back-to-back with a manual on several occasions, and now can't realistically see me ever getting a manual again, unless I get back into a Caterham.

But if you prefer manuals, you'll prefer a manual.

That's basically it, yes. The 8 speed ZF is the best auto I've ever tried (I drove it in a friend's 520d), but personally I prefer manual gearboxes and I know my wife does too (about an hour after I asked her to marry me she threw in the proviso that we'd never own an auto!). My daily driver and track car are both manuals, and her car is too. I suspect it'll always be that way unless we have no choice in the future. My Dad's daily is an auto and his weekend cars are both manuals. Everyone has different priorities, likes and dislikes.

The only thing I would change about your post above is the idea that some people think "proper drivers must have a manual". Unless I'm living in a bubble of good sense, I've never heard anyone suggest that, so I suspect that's a very rare opinion. Everyone's enjoyment in cars is different, so I don't think there's any such thing as "proper" in any aspect of cars and driving - just different.

[Ninja59]

ZF8 boy here my first auto, I never really liked auto, but for the 6 it is just the right type of gearbox to go with the size and general "feeling" of the car. It has the odd moment, but in comparison with most of the driving I do it does it smoothly with minimal fuss. It is like witchcraft most of the time.

I have not had a lot of experience with DSG so hard to comment, but my colleagues M4 does seem quite "snappy" when just trying to creep forward.

Until very recently as well I was never aware BMW did the current outgoing M6 in a manual form...rare beast, and from some owners fairly mixed views.

[GrumpyTwig]

JuanGandini said:

I've just taken delivery of a Skoda Octavia 245 vRS with the 7 speed wet clutch DSG box. I've also previously run an M135i with the ZF8 auto for two years. Both are great boxes in my opinion. It's early days for me with the DSG but early impressions are that it's extremely smooth to the point I can scarcely notice gear changes (in normal mode - not tried sport much yet). The ZF8 in the M135i was very good and also smooth and responsive but on cold starts it could be slightly clunky, causing 1>2 gear changes to be lumpy. Thereafter it was great.

Either way, they're extremely good gearboxes for modern stop-start driving.

I've got the older 220 with the 6 speed, up shift I find are generally smooth as any other automatic for the most part. The time I notice it is primarily on down shifts, it feels a bit like it lets the clutch back in a bit too hard and not quite at the correct revs. I also find it can get a bit confused pulling up to a junction, with the stop start on I've had it cut out and get out of sorts a bit.

I've drive one or two cars I think with a ZF box, particularly recall driving a Lexus ISF an that was, without trying to be too over the top quite brilliantly smooth all around.

When I changed cars last I'd wanted something with a ZF but couldn't ignore the VFM of the Skoda and I think the DSG box is absolutely fine. Maybe not the greatest automatic by a small margin and based on pretty picky points, but fine none the less

[liner33]

Another with the 220 DSG , my only gripe is shifting from reverse to drive seems to take a second or two to take up drive.

When I first drove a dsg it was on a 2.0 diesel and I thought it was awful , slow and always in the wrong gear , the petrol seems fine to me

[steve-5snwi]

JordanM200 said:

ZF gearbox is far superior to the crappy DSG.

This sums it up for me

[culpz]

Ares said:

No-one really hates the ZF or DSG box. They may hate automatic gearboxes. They may feel that if you are a proper motorist you *must* have a three pedal manual, but in the world of two pedals, the ZF and every DSG/PDK I've driven are fantastic.

But if you don't like autos, you won't like any auto, ZF/DSG/PDK/Whatever.


11yrs ago, my daily driver was an Exige. I could never imagine having any automotive fun without three pedals. I'm now on my 5th auto, I have as much fun as I ever had in any manual when driving for the hell of it....AND it's massively preferable for routine A-to-B motoring (which is still 90% of my time behind the wheel). I've preferred the auto after driving back-to-back with a manual on several occasions, and now can't realistically see me ever getting a manual again, unless I get back into a Caterham.

But if you prefer manuals, you'll prefer a manual.

Nail firmly on head, Mr Ares. Good post!

I agree completely. I'm now becoming an absolute convert of automatics, especially the modern ZF8 style ones and DSG units.

My commute is alot of stop/start city driving, but even if it wasn't, i reckon i'd still go for a decent automatic option with paddles. I just prefer it.

I'm not expecting everyone to agree, as the general consensus is that manuals are the best for fun. Not for me though. Not anymore, anyway.

For others, it's the opposite and automatics just don't cut it.

[Olivera]

This was discussed a few weeks ago in the BMW forum, quite a few criticised the ZF box:

https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...

[culpz]

JuanGandini said:

I've just taken delivery of a Skoda Octavia 245 vRS with the 7 speed wet clutch DSG box. I've also previously run an M135i with the ZF8 auto for two years. Both are great boxes in my opinion. It's early days for me with the DSG but early impressions are that it's extremely smooth to the point I can scarcely notice gear changes (in normal mode - not tried sport much yet). The ZF8 in the M135i was very good and also smooth and responsive but on cold starts it could be slightly clunky, causing 1>2 gear changes to be lumpy. Thereafter it was great.

Either way, they're extremely good gearboxes for modern stop-start driving.

Funnily enough, i was meaning to ask you what you were replacing your A4 with. I nearly jumped on one of the cheap leases on those a while back but hesitated and missed out. With that being said, i'd heard that the lead times on them were shockingly long. I think they've temporarily stopped production on them for a bit.

I've just gone for one of the last few batches of cheap Scirocco leases before they stop production. Should be getting it by the end of the month. It's a 2.0 TSI GT DSG. Very much looking forward to getting rid of that Audi at last! I'm also pretty excited to finally get an automatic and see how much easier it'll make my commute

[JuanGandini]

culpz said:

JuanGandini said:

I've just taken delivery of a Skoda Octavia 245 vRS with the 7 speed wet clutch DSG box. I've also previously run an M135i with the ZF8 auto for two years. Both are great boxes in my opinion. It's early days for me with the DSG but early impressions are that it's extremely smooth to the point I can scarcely notice gear changes (in normal mode - not tried sport much yet). The ZF8 in the M135i was very good and also smooth and responsive but on cold starts it could be slightly clunky, causing 1>2 gear changes to be lumpy. Thereafter it was great.

Either way, they're extremely good gearboxes for modern stop-start driving.

Funnily enough, i was meaning to ask you what you were replacing your A4 with. I nearly jumped on one of the cheap leases on those a while back but hesitated and missed out. With that being said, i'd heard that the lead times on them were shockingly long. I think they've temporarily stopped production on them for a bit.

I've just gone for one of the last few batches of cheap Scirocco leases before they stop production. Should be getting it by the end of the month. It's a 2.0 TSI GT DSG. Very much looking forward to getting rid of that Audi at last! I'm also pretty excited to finally get an automatic and see how much easier it'll make my commute

Nice work. The missus tried to stop me going for the DSG on the 245 when I was ordering it, just to save £10-20 per month. So glad I told her how daft that idea was now. And she also agrees. It's great to be back in an auto - especially with stop start traffic I have to deal with all the time.