RE: New Porsche 911 previewed
Discussion
Vitorio said:
havoc said:
So is that all the GT3 becomes? Another 'rung' in the finely-sliced* stratification of 911s, to ensure Porsche drain the maximum possible out of customers' wallets? The step above the GTS, rather than something unique and special?!?
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Hasnt it been that way for ages though? .
...
I'd argue that no 911 out there, even the GT2RS is "something unique and special"...
...although in each instance above I will state that the motorsport links and attention to detail seem to be getting thinner and thinner with each iteration - the 1990s and even early-2000s variants seemed properly resourced and resolved, but since establishing the kudos of each badge, marketing has got more and more involved with each successive release, watering the offering down for the mass-market to buy-into.
Take away the bespoke powertrain though, and arguably all you're left with is a "handling pack" and some marketing guff.
havoc said:
You clearly have a higher benchmark than me - I'd suggest that something with a (truly) motorsport-derived engine and fastidious attention to detail around chassis design/handling is 'special', whether it's a Porsche GT- or -RS model, a BMW M-Sport model, a Honda Type-R or possibly an old-school homologation special from elsewhere...
...although in each instance above I will state that the motorsport links and attention to detail seem to be getting thinner and thinner with each iteration - the 1990s and even early-2000s variants seemed properly resourced and resolved, but since establishing the kudos of each badge, marketing has got more and more involved with each successive release, watering the offering down for the mass-market to buy-into.
Take away the bespoke powertrain though, and arguably all you're left with is a "handling pack" and some marketing guff.
Well to be honest, i dont know all that much about porsches, the 911 in particular, since i just dont like it. I respect the engineering that goes into one, but i simply dont care about the car as a whole, so i dont know the specifics on the GT3 driveline, nor does it mean much to me whether it is race-derived or not....although in each instance above I will state that the motorsport links and attention to detail seem to be getting thinner and thinner with each iteration - the 1990s and even early-2000s variants seemed properly resourced and resolved, but since establishing the kudos of each badge, marketing has got more and more involved with each successive release, watering the offering down for the mass-market to buy-into.
Take away the bespoke powertrain though, and arguably all you're left with is a "handling pack" and some marketing guff.
To me the 911 remains very much a "nostalgia/image over substance" car, whether it is a carrera or a GT3, i cant get over the engine being in the wrong place for instance, and the fact that the styling is pretty much the same since the 60s.
So yeah, to me a GT3 is just a rung on the 911 ladder, the one you get when a GTS isnt track-oriented enough, but the RS/GT2RS are too expensive/hardcore.
Vitorio said:
To me the 911 remains very much a "nostalgia/image over substance" car, whether it is a carrera or a GT3, i cant get over the engine being in the wrong place, the RS/GT2RS are too expensive/hardcore.
Strange that the market thinks differently. 
These cars are clearly not expensive enough new. Especially having regard to their capabilities even with the engine in the wrong place lol.
:thumbsup:av185 said:
Strange that the market thinks differently.
These cars are clearly not expensive enough new. Especially having regard to their capabilities even with the engine in the wrong place lol.
Fair enough, i know many people like 911s, and obviously they sell well enough for porsche to keep churning them out, i just dont like em.These cars are clearly not expensive enough new. Especially having regard to their capabilities even with the engine in the wrong place lol.
As for pricing, i would wager part of that is because of the scarcity of them, and people assuming values will go up. The amount of posts on PH wondering about residual values, or buying cars that are sure to appreciate in value demonstrates that supercars are as much an investment property as something nice to drive to many, that in and of itself will drive prices upwards (see bitcoin, 10K for near 0 inherent value)
Vitorio said:
As for pricing, i would wager part of that is because of the scarcity of them, and people assuming values will go up. The amount of posts on PH wondering about residual values, or buying cars that are sure to appreciate in value demonstrates that supercars are as much an investment property as something nice to drive to many, that in and of itself will drive prices upwards (see bitcoin, 10K for near 0 inherent value)
Anyone assuming a car will appreciate in value is a fool, irrespective of how rare or capable that car is. There are no guarantees.Pre 2013 and the 991 GT3 most GT Porsches depreciated. Lower interest rates and asset switching created the black market premiums and flipping scenarios for limited run GT Porsches and some niche models.
Many assume this overs market is at least in part created mainly by speculators but it is the deliberate underpricing of their class leading halo cars manufactured in limited numbers by Porsche which creates the premiums and critically drives the brand strength forward for vanilla models.
The simple fact that you can buy say a McLaren or Aston or whatever which tanks say £40k a year in depreciation would suggest these cars are overpriced and whilst for some they are an attractive package they are imo unquestionably far less capable than the equivalent Porsche.
av185 said:
... but it is the deliberate underpricing of their class leading halo cars manufactured in limited numbers by Porsche which creates the premiums and critically drives the brand strength forward for vanilla models.
Underpricing is an interesting thought. Not sure I agree with you- Are they making a profit on each car? Yes.
- Are they making a BIG profit on each car? Hell, yes.
- Are they releasing them in strictly limited numbers? Yes.
...at which point it's all to do with elementary economics - supply-vs-demand. They price them at what a reasonable man would say represents 'a fair price'...it's then up to the market.
Also note that we're dealing with Veblen goods here (limited-run 911s to some degree, Bugattis and K'eggs and the like emphatically so), which means the demand-curve doesn't always behave in a normal way.
Could Porsche make more / announce they're not a limited-run? Sure, but then they wouldn't have the interest from speculators and ironically may find themselves selling fewer cars. THAT is the kicker here - it's the limited-run nature which is driving investor-interest, not the pricing which is setting the market demand. We may not like it (I don't), but Porsche are looking after Porsche and their shareholders...exactly what they're supposed to do!
It's also a risk for the speculators...not all limited-run cars appreciate, and of course as/when the global economy changes, then "investment chattels" may suddenly lose their appeal, and prices may crash.
anonymous said:
[redacted]
Agreed. The range of 911s is quite big, and the range of buyers even bigger. However, the 911 in general is a very capable car.The current GT3 ( I do not own one) does provide a manual option which is now rare, and can be specific with all of the aero removed for those who wish it.
Of course there are people who buy for image which is true for almost any premium brand. There are those who buy to collect, to speculate and so on. The fact remains that the 911 is still a driver's car for those who wish and spec it that way.
As for styling not changing there are certain cars where the styling is part of the definition of the vehicle. I want my 911 to look like a 811, just as I want my Jeep to look like a Jeep.
Luckily, for those who want varying styling there are plenty of non-Porsche options.
Esceptico said:
Will it be the most enjoyable to drive? At least for me, not a chance. Driving enjoyment is subjective, not objective.
If you take away the noise of NA petrol engine, having to actually think about what you are doing such as when to change gears, matching revs, how much grip and traction you have, etc that makes driving easier. It might make you quicker. But so what? When I go for a drive (or ride) at the weekend then I go because I enjoy driving/riding, not because I actually need to go somewhere. Usually it is the opposite. I go somewhere so that I have an excuse to go for a drive/ride!
Which have you enjoyed driving the most? And which models have you bought?If you take away the noise of NA petrol engine, having to actually think about what you are doing such as when to change gears, matching revs, how much grip and traction you have, etc that makes driving easier. It might make you quicker. But so what? When I go for a drive (or ride) at the weekend then I go because I enjoy driving/riding, not because I actually need to go somewhere. Usually it is the opposite. I go somewhere so that I have an excuse to go for a drive/ride!
Ares said:
What was the last one you drove/owned?
+1 . I guess some people find the 911 an easy target for vitriol, for whatever reason. There's no other obvious explanation, they are simply good cars. Even the 1980s cars are perfectly modern enough for daily use, and something like the 996 Turbo that came out the thick end of 20 years ago is in many respects an entirely modern car. I guess some people just don't like the look of the various 911s, or perhaps, feel excluded by the (actually very easy to explain in well under 10 minutes) various generations and derivatives. Most people into cars seem to like them. Whether you want a modern car, a classic, a class-winning endurance racer, or a nice high performance convertible with rear seats for kids / luggage, or any sort of performance car in between, the 911 range, both current and historic, surely has at least one version that would please most enthusiasts.havoc said:
Underpricing is an interesting thought. Not sure I agree with you
- Are they making a profit on each car? Yes.
- Are they making a BIG profit on each car? Hell, yes.
.
Whilst I don't have any figures ££ to support this, I would doubt if Porsche make very much at all on the majority of their GT cars, especially having regard to their limited production numbers and development costs.- Are they making a profit on each car? Yes.
- Are they making a BIG profit on each car? Hell, yes.
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The fact they could ask say £150k not £112k for a new GT3 in the UK and still sell them all, even increasing supply substantially is irrelevant to Porsche.
The big money and huge £ return is made in the brand filtering down to the volume models through increasing sales in these sectors.
Julian Thompson said:
Ah yes I’ve found what you mean - the comments were made because the 996 cup car used basically the the same motor as the road car but the 991 uses a bespoke race engine in the cup car. Hard to tell if they have upgraded the race car or down graded the road car but now I see what you’re driving at! Much interesting. Thanks for the information :-)
Best
J
There was a series of articles years ago about a guy who was converting a 996 cup into road legal spec, it was an interesting read as much for the fact that Porsche specifically didn't want anyone doing this to the many odds and ends he had a struggle with.Best
J
Thing is there was a point in time when the 996 race cars were literally dirt cheap as in 25 grand cheap (I know an outfit who bought one at that sort of price level). Times long since gone sadly when everyone has been looking to make money from cars.
av185 said:
Vitorio said:
To me the 911 remains very much a "nostalgia/image over substance" car, whether it is a carrera or a GT3, i cant get over the engine being in the wrong place, the RS/GT2RS are too expensive/hardcore.
Strange that the market thinks differently. These cars are clearly not expensive enough new. Especially having regard to their capabilities even with the engine in the wrong place lol.
av185 said:
Whilst I don't have any figures ££ to support this, I would doubt if Porsche make very much at all on the majority of their GT cars, especially having regard to their limited production numbers and development costs.
I've worked in the industry (partly in product costing) - the major investment in a new programme is in 3 areas:-- New capital equipment (plant and machinery)
- Tooling, both at the OEM and at suppliers
- Engineering / D&D time.
...and so manufacturers typically make a MUCH bigger profit on the high-spec and halo cars than they do on the cooking, low-end variants.
For a GT3 (for example)
- The additional capital will be negligible.
- The tooling requirement over and above the stock model is fairly small. Granted it would need to be amortised over a much smaller # of vehicles, but it's still not going to be that significant. And the cost will be even lower if some of it is carried-over into the motorsport programmes.
- The Engineering time is the big question-mark, and if you believe Porsche this could be quite significant. Equally, the cost of the Motorsport development team could be amortised fully into their Motorsport activities, so the GT-cars get a 'freebie', or it could be split between the two and will need to be amortised-in...which to me would be the more sensible route.
...but consider that the tangible cost-of-production of a GT3 is probably only about +/-£10k more than a Carrera S (a lot of that in the engine), then the £25k sales price differential (£21k net of VAT) has plenty of scope to soak up these D&D costs and still make a decent profit.
(To be fair, the £+30k extra for an -RS over a stock GT3 is where a lot of extra profit is probably made, and likewise the £60k+ extra again for the GT2RS)
Interesting thanks for posting that.
The 991 Turbo S looks a very profitable car for Porsche at between £150k and £170k without options. Higher volumes and relatively non bespoke relative to GT cars it would be interesting to know the effective cost per car for Porsche but it must be low.
Then again, the UK market is essentially a one off especially atm with the weak £ and coupled with low volumes e.g only c 250 GT3s for the UK compared to other countries must mean UK cars are most likely overall the least profitable despite a recent ten percent price rise.
An extreme case is the GT2RS. With only c50 coming to the UK and priced up to £235k for Weissach pack cars all that magnesium carbon fibre and titanium ain't cheap!
The 991 Turbo S looks a very profitable car for Porsche at between £150k and £170k without options. Higher volumes and relatively non bespoke relative to GT cars it would be interesting to know the effective cost per car for Porsche but it must be low.
Then again, the UK market is essentially a one off especially atm with the weak £ and coupled with low volumes e.g only c 250 GT3s for the UK compared to other countries must mean UK cars are most likely overall the least profitable despite a recent ten percent price rise.
An extreme case is the GT2RS. With only c50 coming to the UK and priced up to £235k for Weissach pack cars all that magnesium carbon fibre and titanium ain't cheap!
When I picked up my 991RS at thr factory the delivery guy said. “Don’t crash it”. It was an odd comment he has not made about previous versions.
I checked the prices for the CF front end when I got back to Canada. Whoa! A new front wing was $15,000. I wonder what this stuff costs. I do know that that roof is very complex to build.
I checked the prices for the CF front end when I got back to Canada. Whoa! A new front wing was $15,000. I wonder what this stuff costs. I do know that that roof is very complex to build.
CM - are there really THAT many bespoke components on a GT3 (as opposed to an RS, where you can see there's multiple new panels)? If so, then possibly a fair comment...the extra tooling / D&D time there wouldn't help.
Marketing junkets - yeah, that would soak up the profit, but I doubt that's allocated to the cars, and instead comes out of a central pot, as a chunk of that would be deemed overall brand marketing.
3RS - agree 100% that's where a killing is being made
2RS - for the latest one I think half of the expense there was specifically to target the 'ring record, and there was still a lot of cross-over with either the 3RS or the Turbo-S.
Marketing junkets - yeah, that would soak up the profit, but I doubt that's allocated to the cars, and instead comes out of a central pot, as a chunk of that would be deemed overall brand marketing.
3RS - agree 100% that's where a killing is being made
2RS - for the latest one I think half of the expense there was specifically to target the 'ring record, and there was still a lot of cross-over with either the 3RS or the Turbo-S.
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